2013 budget preliminaries

Bannasidhe

KINGVictor wrote: »

Good post and I agree with most of what you are saying but the underlined above is an exaggeration.

I wish it was..I really wish it was.

KyussBishop

No matter what we do here, further cuts are simply going to reduce our GDP so that we have to make more cuts in the next budget, and again in the next, in a negative feedback loop which is going to continue devaluing our entire economy (making national debt harder to pay) until the loop is broken.

For us, with a national debt as high as it is, we need EU level co-ordination to completely write-off some of the debt, and/or a complete suspension of interest payments on debt, coupled with EU-wide deficit spending to bring back full employment.
A combination of anti-cyclical policies like that (this one alone won't do it), which actually aim for full employment, get people working and get GDP increasing, will (in the long term) pay of all of the debt faster (and gradually ease the debt-deflation we are under), especially where much of it is written-off, but there just is not the political will in the EU.

The longer we stick with austerity and accept it as a de-facto reality, and accept the idea that there is no alternative (and you do not have to spell out every step of an alternative plan to show alternatives), the more we'll be needlessly picking away at various public services and strangling the private sector with increased taxes, perpetually making the problem even worse than it is already.

Godge

KyussBishop wrote: »

No matter what we do here, further cuts are simply going to reduce our GDP so that we have to make more cuts in the next budget, and again in the next, in a negative feedback loop which is going to continue devaluing our entire economy (making national debt harder to pay) until the loop is broken..

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=7340

So we are stuck in a negative feedback loop. Do you have any figures to back this up? Have a look at that link.

"Growth Developments in 2011
For the year 2011 as a whole Irish real GDP recorded an increase of 1.4%, revised up from previous figures of 0.7%. This represented the first year of growth in the Irish economy since 2007."


It appears to me that you are stuck with last year's problem. Together with the increase of 1.4% in real GDP last year, there was inflation of 2.6%, together giving an increase in nominal GDP (that is the one required for calculating debt ratios) of over 4%.

A case of problem solved, nothing to see here, let's move on.

KyussBishop wrote: »

For us, with a national debt as high as it is, we need EU level co-ordination to completely write-off some of the debt, and/or a complete suspension of interest payments on debt, coupled with EU-wide deficit spending to bring back full employment.
A combination of anti-cyclical policies like that (this one alone won't do it), which actually aim for full employment, get people working and get GDP increasing, will (in the long term) pay of all of the debt faster (and gradually ease the debt-deflation we are under), especially where much of it is written-off, but there just is not the political will in the EU..

So who is going to pay for the written-off debt? I have never been able to get my head around this idea that someone from the EU can come in and wave their magic wand and the debt will be written off just like that, sounds like a Paul Daniels trick.

KyussBishop wrote: »

The longer we stick with austerity and accept it as a de-facto reality, and accept the idea that there is no alternative (and you do not have to spell out every step of an alternative plan to show alternatives), the more we'll be needlessly picking away at various public services and strangling the private sector with increased taxes, perpetually making the problem even worse than it is already.

There is no credible alternative. The only alternative put out there is let the German taxpayer pay for our folly rather than we paying for it ourselves. That is not a real alternative.

AlekSmart

later12 wrote: »

The Government has not completely abandoned the "ability to pay" principle of revenue collection.

If someone is the owner of a property which does enjoy the main council services, then one should anticipate to have to pay for the benefits that accrue to them through the provision of those services. Otherwise, they might want to consider the wisdom of contracting the charges by way of amassing significant & expensive assets in the first place.


There was a saying in a bank where I used to work that went "you can't get blood out of a stone, but you can get water out of a turnip". The turnip, in this case, is the Irish householder, which through his irrational & eager desire for property ownership, will do almost anything to retain his title deeds.

Every cloud has it's silver lining.

In this particular recessionary case its the slow drip of realization that outright OWNERSHIP of ones residence (Or as it is usually put,HOME ) is nowhere near as all pervadingly important as we've always been led to believe.

From this generation onwards,Irish property buyers are going to become familiar with the reality of the true cost of owning ones own little-place.

All we need now to establish some form of sustainable living option in Ireland is the total overhaul of the Private Resedential Rental sector.

One element cannot succeed without the other.....are there that few realists within the Government ?

NIMAN

Restructuring of Motor Tax?

did they not do that in the last Budget? Iirc, my tax went from €104 per year to €160.

paddy147

FF and the Greens wanted people to go and buy low emmisions/effiecent cars.

FG and Labour then tax the fcuk out of you for doing it and being effiecent.

Thats brilliant indeed.

NIMAN

paddy147 wrote: »

FF and the Greens wanted people to go and buy low emmisions/effiecent cars.

FG and Labour then tax the fcuk out of you for doing it and being effiecent.

Thats brilliant indeed.

Lets be honest, the €104 annual rate was never going to last, even I knew that, although I did think it would last a few more years!

Of course they encouraged us to drive more efficient cars, but if you think about it, say the whole country was driving cars with €104 annual road tax. Their income from it would plummet, so thats why it was always going to rise.

Plus as more people drive more efficient cars, we use less fuel, and so pay less tax, and the cycle continues.

avalon68

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm all for people getting PhD's etc but if its not going to benefit our economy they should not be funded by the taxpayer and now they are leaving the island with their qualifications and basically giving the tax payer the two fingers. nice.

Could you please explain to this phd holder how leaving to find work is giving the tax payer two fingers? Would you rather I stayed in Ireland and lived on the dole? No doubt you would then be on here calling me a dole scrounger :mad:

KyussBishop

Godge wrote: »

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=7340

So we are stuck in a negative feedback loop. Do you have any figures to back this up? Have a look at that link.

"Growth Developments in 2011
For the year 2011 as a whole Irish real GDP recorded an increase of 1.4%, revised up from previous figures of 0.7%. This represented the first year of growth in the Irish economy since 2007."


It appears to me that you are stuck with last year's problem. Together with the increase of 1.4% in real GDP last year, there was inflation of 2.6%, together giving an increase in nominal GDP (that is the one required for calculating debt ratios) of over 4%.

A case of problem solved, nothing to see here, let's move on.

It's far from a case of problem solved, our GDP is far far below it's pre-crisis levels, and thus boosting it is imperative:
http://www.cso.ie/indicators/default.aspx?id=1

In among that, our GNP (a better indicator of our internal economy) is showing constant decline, and that is going to keep on going down with our current policies:
http://www.cso.ie/indicators/default.aspx?id=2

We might be close to the point of balancing the debt so we're not running more of a deficit, but that policy is damaging the economy, and in the long run restoring GNP/GDP (at close to full employment) as soon as possible should be the goal, not balancing the sheet at the cost of our internal economy (which prolongs the overall recovery).

Godge wrote: »

So who is going to pay for the written-off debt? I have never been able to get my head around this idea that someone from the EU can come in and wave their magic wand and the debt will be written off just like that, sounds like a Paul Daniels trick.

There's going to need to be a private and possibly sovereign debt jubilee to carry it out, but determining the appropriate extent of it is not an easy question (since it must be EU wide), and the political situation in Europe doesn't make this possible at the moment.

Godge wrote: »

There is no credible alternative. The only alternative put out there is let the German taxpayer pay for our folly rather than we paying for it ourselves. That is not a real alternative.

The idea that there are no alternatives is completely false; as a nation on our own, we have very poor options due to lack of sovereign control over our currency, but on an EU-wide level there are plenty of alternative policies that can be undertaken, but which are not explored due to politics.

femur61

When are people going to wake up to the reason we have all these tax hikes. We have decided (sorry the govenment has) to protect PS wages and pensions. I knonw new entrants are being hit but if people in all sectors took pay decreases then we wouldn't have to raise tazes to pay some extortionate wages.

When will Joe Public and Private realise this.

Farmer Pudsey

femur61 wrote: »

When are people going to wake up to the reason we have all these tax hikes. We have decided (sorry the govenment has) to protect PS wages and pensions. I knonw new entrants are being hit but if people in all sectors took pay decreases then we wouldn't have to raise tazes to pay some extortionate wages.

When will Joe Public and Private realise this.

It is not just wages they are against cuts in the headline rate of welfare. The sociial welafre budget is about 18-20 billion. Wages in the PS are over 20 billion so it leave only small parts of the budget to cut from.

Wages in the public servioce in Irelannd are excessive the average PS wage in Ireland is around 850 euro's the average private sector wage is about 550 euro's it is a huge difference

Idbatterim

So who is going to pay for the written-off debt? I have never been able to get my head around this idea that someone from the EU can come in and wave their magic wand and the debt will be written off just like that, sounds like a Paul Daniels trick.

who pays when you go into a bookies and lose? The reality is that these "bondholders" can actually afford to lose the money, it was excess money they had that they thought they could make extra money on...

Black Smoke

Godge wrote: »

Why would you listen to him, he is saying that for his members.

The Vintners Association will say that putting ten pence on the pint is absolute madness and will close pubs
The unions will say that cutting public service pay is absolute madness and will lead to strikes.
The poverty industry representatives will say that cutting social welfare is absolute madness and will hurt the old and the weak

Etc. Etc.

If somebody from a representative group says something it should be taken with a bucket of salt.

And if a politician says "there will be no tax increases", and his sidekick says "it will be labours way, not Frankfurt's way", and both get elected as a result, don't you think we are entitled to take the democratic process with more than a grain of salt.
Brutal fact is that neither Kenny nor Gilmore have a mandate to do what they are doing, albeit it is all necessary and a lot more is also necessary. Nevertheless, they do not have any mandate:eek:

Godge

From what I recall the detail of the promises made by FG were:

(1) there will be no increase in income tax rates - this means significant room was left for increases in PRSI, widening of tax bands and cuts in tax reliefs and allowances. it also left room for increases in VAT, CGT, CAT and the introduction of new property-based taxes
(2) there will be no cut to basic social welfare rates - this means significant room was left for cuts to payments such as rent allowance and child benefit as well as room for changing eligibility rules and shortening the length of time a payment was payable
(3) there will be no cuts to basic pay in the public service - again this has left room for changes to sick pay, allowances, even lengthening of the working week, cuts in numbers, all of which save money


When arguing that the government is breaking promises, maybe we should go back and check exactly what it was they said at the time.

Godge

Black Smoke wrote: »

And if a politician says "there will be no tax increases", and his sidekick says "it will be labours way, not Frankfurt's way", and both get elected as a result, don't you think we are entitled to take the democratic process with more than a grain of salt.
Brutal fact is that neither Kenny nor Gilmore have a mandate to do what they are doing, albeit it is all necessary and a lot more is also necessary. Nevertheless, they do not have any mandate:eek:

FG have to date stuck to their promise that there will be no increase in income tax rates.

jased10s

Mean-while back in the real world the tax payer is getting screwed up to the point of jacking it in .

I really wish all you poster would get together and form a party. You seem more knowlegeable and of sound judgement than the current shower. Rarther than wasting your energy on fruitless arguments that really a proper gourvement should have resolved by now.

I really think that boards is a front for the gourverment to repress real action by the population. You vent your opionions and thoughts but never quite make it to the streets.

And Godge thats a stupid response out of just to respond with a im right attuide.
They WILL change the tax, it's a given.

paddy147

Id love to be a politician.

You can get away with serious amounts of dodgey dealings and non payment shyte.....like not paying VAT.

I see Mick Wallace will not be persued now as of today...Basicly he has gotten away with it.

Full story in the Evening Herald this evening.

But yet Phil Hogan will have a person up in court for not paying a 100 euro HHC.

Lovely Irish society we live in today.

paddy147

Mick Wallace story here.....


http://www.herald.ie/news/wallace-delight-as-enforcer-wont-go-after-him-3210900.html

woodoo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is not just wages they are against cuts in the headline rate of welfare. The sociial welafre budget is about 18-20 billion. Wages in the PS are over 20 billion so it leave only small parts of the budget to cut from.

Its nowhere near 20 billion:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

Dannyboy83

woodoo wrote: »

Its nowhere near 20 billion:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

It's probably time we had some updated figures.

I think everyone still works off the McCarthy report figures:

antoobrien

woodoo wrote: »

Its nowhere near 20 billion:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

It's actually approx €18.5bn this year. Taken from the CSO earnings survey

2012 Q2 Public service average weekly wage: 918.99
2012 Q2 Public sector workers: 388,500
Estimated cost for the year: €18,565,435,980

antoobrien

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's probably time we had some updated figures.

This year's estimates are probably more accurate than my last post.

PS pay (table 4) €15.374 bn
PS Pensions (T 5): €3.038 bn

Tea drinker

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes you are right you can add
increased property tax
Increased college fees
water rates
Generally anything that effects workers of your above there will harly be any increase in Vat as it got hammered last year, little or no extra tax on alachol oe cigs effects the unemployed the most no reduvtion on welfare and no reduction on PS wage rates even though they are one of the highest in Europe.

Tax the private sector out of existance.

Hitting the most vulnerable in society as usual (PAYE and self employed minnows). Hopefully they will reduce to zero child benefit for 3rd and subsequent children born 10 months after the budget announcement.
It looks like they might finally be starting to realise Croke park needs to be addressed, some light at the end of the tunnel, not nearly enough to get us out of the dodo.

Lawrence1895

Don't know, if I post it in the right section of the forum, but...

I heard on the radio this morning, they are thinking about scrapping the Free Travel Scheme for the Elderly, and even more important for me, for Carers.

Right, I am looking after a guy in a wheelchair, who needs assistance, whenever he uses public transport, otherwise he gets lost and disorientated, due to his medical condition.

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

antoobrien

Lars1916 wrote: »

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

The total spend on social welfare for a single year is more than the total amount of money that has been put into the banks from the exchequer since 2008.

Lawrence1895

antoobrien wrote: »

The total spend on social welfare for a single year is more than the total amount of money that has been put into the banks from the exchequer since 2008.

I didn't say, everything is fine with the social welfare system. Something has to be changed, but this is a cut at the very right end, imo.

Godge

Lars1916 wrote: »

Don't know, if I post it in the right section of the forum, but...

I heard on the radio this morning, they are thinking about scrapping the Free Travel Scheme for the Elderly, and even more important for me, for Carers.

Right, I am looking after a guy in a wheelchair, who needs assistance, whenever he uses public transport, otherwise he gets lost and disorientated, due to his medical condition.

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

There is massive widespread abuse of the free travel scheme. Travelling regularly on buses I have witnessed many things that would make you sick.

In one case I witnessed a man travelling on a carer's pass supposedly looking after a mentally ill woman. Getting off the bus at O'Connell St bridge, he told her to go home on her own but to be back in town by 5 so he could travel home from work with her. Maybe I picked it up wrong as over-hearing things you can sometimes but how someone could do that to someone they were caring for is beyond me.

I know a few people who work on the buses and they all confirm that the scheme is widely abused.

I am not saying that you abuse it but at the very least they should introduce restrictions. There used to be one that you could not travel at peak times. A credit card system with photo should also be introduced.

Lawrence1895

Godge wrote: »

There is massive widespread abuse of the free travel scheme. Travelling regularly on buses I have witnessed many things that would make you sick.

In one case I witnessed a man travelling on a carer's pass supposedly looking after a mentally ill woman. Getting off the bus at O'Connell St bridge, he told her to go home on her own but to be back in town by 5 so he could travel home from work with her. Maybe I picked it up wrong as over-hearing things you can sometimes but how someone could do that to someone they were caring for is beyond me.

I know a few people who work on the buses and they all confirm that the scheme is widely abused.

I am not saying that you abuse it but at the very least they should introduce restrictions. There used to be one that you could not travel at peak times. A credit card system with photo should also be introduced.

Well, the guy, I'm looking after, needed a letter from his GP, stating his medical condition, and that he needs someone to travel with him. Not sure, if they are asking for a GP's letter all the time, since he only moved out of residential care into the community about one year ago.

murphaph

Lars1916 wrote: »

Well, the guy, I'm looking after, needed a letter from his GP, stating his medical condition, and that he needs someone to travel with him. Not sure, if they are asking for a GP's letter all the time, since he only moved out of residential care into the community about one year ago.

GPs have been known to sign forms they shouldn't be signing. There should be a more independent way of assessment rather than relying on a GP who couldn't care either way and faces no sanction for signing off on such forms in error.

Godge

murphaph wrote: »

GPs have been known to sign forms they shouldn't be signing. There should be a more independent way of assessment rather than relying on a GP who couldn't care either way and faces no sanction for signing off on such forms in error.

Very good point, sick certificates for work is another very good example of this.

Lawrence1895

Godge wrote: »

Very good point, sick certificates for work is another very good example of this.

What would happen, if a GP was reported for handing out a fake cert?

avalon68

Lars1916 wrote: »

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

they need money to bridge a deficit that has little to do with bailing out the banks. The government is simply spending more than it earns in taxes......it sucks, but spending needs to be cut and tax need to be increased. Can't have it both ways.....people complain about tax increases, then complain about cuts to services which would be funded by tax increases.

murphaph

Lars1916 wrote: »

What would happen, if a GP was reported for handing out a fake cert?

I would imagine....nothing!

The GP can claim that in his medical opinion, the patient was at the time suffering from x and was unfit for work.

To establish that the cert was "fake" you'd have to get the patient to consent to another medical examination by some sort of independent doctor. Noner of these processes nor structures exist, so GPs remain more or less free to falsify a large swathe of documents.

lmimmfn

Tea drinker wrote: »

Hitting the most vulnerable in society as usual (PAYE and self employed minnows).

lol, that made me chuckle, its true though. They'll rape the PAYE contributer until they can no longer contribute and jack it all in and go on the dole.

Its going to be really interesting( unfortunately ) to see the state of people's lives in 3-4 years time. What annoys me is the absolute waste i see every day, road resurfacing for roads that didnt need resurfacing, rebuilding of roundabouts because theyre 'too high', and with all the austerity and people struggling theyre still overspending.

NakedNNettles

lmimmfn wrote: »

What annoys me is the absolute waste i see every day, road resurfacing for roads that didnt need resurfacing, rebuilding of roundabouts because theyre 'too high'.

Yeah, totally agree, a joke alright, its all these smaller things that are adding up to the wastefulness in this country.

syklops

Lars1916 wrote: »

I didn't say, everything is fine with the social welfare system. Something has to be changed, but this is a cut at the very right end, imo.

After last weeks u-turn I would say the carers will be ok for the moment. The free travel for the elderly definitely needs to be looked at.

The cuts to the carers that had Joe Duffys lines ringing was 10 million cut to the carers allowance. The free travel scheme costs the tax payer 75 million. As I said on the Joe Duffy thread, after hearing all the sob stories from carers about how much work they do for such little money etc, it was kind of hard to have sympathy with them 3 days later, when after getting the decision repealed, they were on again complaining that the free travel might be cut. We have to cut something.

Lawrence1895

syklops wrote: »

After last weeks u-turn I would say the carers will be ok for the moment. The free travel for the elderly definitely needs to be looked at.

The cuts to the carers that had Joe Duffys lines ringing was 10 million cut to the carers allowance. The free travel scheme costs the tax payer 75 million. As I said on the Joe Duffy thread, after hearing all the sob stories from carers about how much work they do for such little money etc, it was kind of hard to have sympathy with them 3 days later, when after getting the decision repealed, they were on again complaining that the free travel might be cut. We have to cut something.

I wasn't really moaning about the payment, I get, even if that was cut down quite a lot, after the new government took over (the old crowd was not better, but I got more pay cuts under the new shower). What I was saying was, the person, I'm looking after, would be put at risk, if he has to travel on his own, he is not screwing the system.

syklops

Lars1916 wrote: »

I wasn't really moaning about the payment, I get, even if that was cut down quite a lot, after the new government took over (the old crowd was not better, but I got more pay cuts under the new shower). What I was saying was, the person, I'm looking after, would be put at risk, if he has to travel on his own, he is not screwing the system.

I never for one minute suggested he is screwing the system. I said we have to cut something. The carers allowance is not going to be touched(for now at least), but the savings still need to be cut. If he gets free travel, why can't he pay for your ticket? The government is not banning carers from travelling with their charges, just thinking about removing the free travel.

robp

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm all for people getting PhD's etc but if its not going to benefit our economy they should not be funded by the taxpayer and now they are leaving the island with their qualifications and basically giving the tax payer the two fingers. nice.

Scholarships for PhD students are the norm all over Europe and even the world. Its not reasonable to expect people to do PhDs with out tuition and living expenses covered. The research done by PhD students is actually an extremely cheap way to sponsor research. The stipend they receive is a small fraction of what a salaried researcher would earn.
These can be given on a competitive basis, but must be at least present.

Geuze

antoobrien wrote: »

The total spend on social welfare for a single year is more than the total amount of money that has been put into the banks from the exchequer since 2008.

This statement is incorrect.

The banking crisis has cost 62.8 bn.

Welfare spending is approx 21bn pa.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/CorporatePublications/StrategicPlansAndReports/Documents/ar2011.pdf

antoobrien

Geuze wrote: »

This statement is incorrect.

The banking crisis has cost 62.8 bn.

Welfare spending is approx 21bn pa.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/CorporatePublications/StrategicPlansAndReports/Documents/ar2011.pdf

That statement is incorrect - the baking crisis will cost 62.8 bn. It has cost the exchequer approx 17bn to August 31 (any other money put into the banks has come from other sources such as the NPRF). That does not include any income gathered from the Sale of the partial shareholding in BoI or from the ELG


Year | Non-Voted Capital Expenditure | Amount € bn | Running Total € bn
2008 | None | 0.000000 | 0
2009 | Anglo | 4.000000 | 4.000000
2010 | INBS | 0.100000 | 4.100000
2010 | EBS | 0.625000 | 4.725000
2011 | IL&P | 2.300000 | 7.025000
2011 | Promissory Notes | 3.085000 | 10.110000
2011 | Bank Recapitalisation Payments | 5.268147 | 15.378147
2011 | Contribution to Credit Resolution Fund | 0.250000 | 15.628147
2012 | Promissory Notes | 0.025000 | 15.653147
2012 | Irish Life | 1.300000 | 16.953147
Source - various exchequer statements available from DoF website.

Geuze

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/04/18/00157.asp

Here is Min Noonan confirming the 62.8 bn in a written Dail Q & A.

Yes, of course, some of the money came from selling NPRF assets and then buying the banks.

So the direct increase in public debt due to the banking crisis will be less than 62.8bn, maybe 40-45bn.

But even if we didn't, or don't, borrow the full 62.8bn, that is still the true cost, as we had to use up other public assets to deal with the banking crisis.

Also, yes, due to the design of the PN for IBRC, we haven't actually paid out actual 62.8bn in hard cash yet. The PN are designed over 10 years. But we have booked the cost in the national accounts.

Count Dooku

Looks like overseas aid wont be touched
Government should keep promise on overseas aid, says survey
The only way to stop that waste is to introduce separate tax for it, then people would think twice when will pay from own pockets

antoobrien

Geuze wrote: »

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/04/18/00157.asp

Here is Min Noonan confirming the 62.8 bn in a written Dail Q & A.

That is Mr Noonan confirming a total, but not what we have spent. I suggest you read the first 4 words of his answer

The bank recapitalisation commitments

We have committed to paying 62.8 bn. That is not to say (as you have done) that we have paid 62.8bn. That may change (e.g. deal on PNs) it may be lower or higher (in fact the net cost of the PNs will be about 46bn not 32bn).

Geuze

Good.

I feel we should not pay the PN.

62.8 bn is too much of a burden on the taxpayers.

Lawrence1895

syklops wrote: »

I never for one minute suggested he is screwing the system. I said we have to cut something. The carers allowance is not going to be touched(for now at least), but the savings still need to be cut. If he gets free travel, why can't he pay for your ticket? The government is not banning carers from travelling with their charges, just thinking about removing the free travel.

I suppose, he would do that, rather than supporting a government, who pumps billions into Anglo Irish

syklops

Lars1916 wrote: »

I suppose, he would do that, rather than supporting a government, who pumps billions into Anglo Irish

I'm getting sick of hearing that argument.

This is about cutting expenditure. Noting to do with Anglo.

Lawrence1895

syklops wrote: »

I'm getting sick of hearing that argument.

This is about cutting expenditure. Noting to do with Anglo.

But I reserve the right to remind everyone of the fact, that this government is as much of a failure, as the previous one

syklops

Lars1916 wrote: »

But I reserve the right to remind everyone of the fact, that this government is as much of a failure, as the previous one

I think most even thinking people will accept that the current government has a long way to go to fail as much as the previous one.

Lawrence1895

syklops wrote: »

I think most even thinking people will accept that the current government has a long way to go to fail as much as the previous one.

I'm sure, there are people thinking like that. But I'm also sure, there are people, who put high hopes into the new government and are disappointed, because there are no real signs of recovery. The new government is nothing more but implementing the old government's policies, imo.