2013 budget preliminaries

Farmer Pudsey

femur61 wrote: »

When are people going to wake up to the reason we have all these tax hikes. We have decided (sorry the govenment has) to protect PS wages and pensions. I knonw new entrants are being hit but if people in all sectors took pay decreases then we wouldn't have to raise tazes to pay some extortionate wages.

When will Joe Public and Private realise this.

It is not just wages they are against cuts in the headline rate of welfare. The sociial welafre budget is about 18-20 billion. Wages in the PS are over 20 billion so it leave only small parts of the budget to cut from.

Wages in the public servioce in Irelannd are excessive the average PS wage in Ireland is around 850 euro's the average private sector wage is about 550 euro's it is a huge difference

Idbatterim

So who is going to pay for the written-off debt? I have never been able to get my head around this idea that someone from the EU can come in and wave their magic wand and the debt will be written off just like that, sounds like a Paul Daniels trick.

who pays when you go into a bookies and lose? The reality is that these "bondholders" can actually afford to lose the money, it was excess money they had that they thought they could make extra money on...

Black Smoke

Godge wrote: »

Why would you listen to him, he is saying that for his members.

The Vintners Association will say that putting ten pence on the pint is absolute madness and will close pubs
The unions will say that cutting public service pay is absolute madness and will lead to strikes.
The poverty industry representatives will say that cutting social welfare is absolute madness and will hurt the old and the weak

Etc. Etc.

If somebody from a representative group says something it should be taken with a bucket of salt.

And if a politician says "there will be no tax increases", and his sidekick says "it will be labours way, not Frankfurt's way", and both get elected as a result, don't you think we are entitled to take the democratic process with more than a grain of salt.
Brutal fact is that neither Kenny nor Gilmore have a mandate to do what they are doing, albeit it is all necessary and a lot more is also necessary. Nevertheless, they do not have any mandate:eek:

Godge

From what I recall the detail of the promises made by FG were:

(1) there will be no increase in income tax rates - this means significant room was left for increases in PRSI, widening of tax bands and cuts in tax reliefs and allowances. it also left room for increases in VAT, CGT, CAT and the introduction of new property-based taxes
(2) there will be no cut to basic social welfare rates - this means significant room was left for cuts to payments such as rent allowance and child benefit as well as room for changing eligibility rules and shortening the length of time a payment was payable
(3) there will be no cuts to basic pay in the public service - again this has left room for changes to sick pay, allowances, even lengthening of the working week, cuts in numbers, all of which save money


When arguing that the government is breaking promises, maybe we should go back and check exactly what it was they said at the time.

Godge

Black Smoke wrote: »

And if a politician says "there will be no tax increases", and his sidekick says "it will be labours way, not Frankfurt's way", and both get elected as a result, don't you think we are entitled to take the democratic process with more than a grain of salt.
Brutal fact is that neither Kenny nor Gilmore have a mandate to do what they are doing, albeit it is all necessary and a lot more is also necessary. Nevertheless, they do not have any mandate:eek:

FG have to date stuck to their promise that there will be no increase in income tax rates.

jased10s

Mean-while back in the real world the tax payer is getting screwed up to the point of jacking it in .

I really wish all you poster would get together and form a party. You seem more knowlegeable and of sound judgement than the current shower. Rarther than wasting your energy on fruitless arguments that really a proper gourvement should have resolved by now.

I really think that boards is a front for the gourverment to repress real action by the population. You vent your opionions and thoughts but never quite make it to the streets.

And Godge thats a stupid response out of just to respond with a im right attuide.
They WILL change the tax, it's a given.

paddy147

Id love to be a politician.

You can get away with serious amounts of dodgey dealings and non payment shyte.....like not paying VAT.

I see Mick Wallace will not be persued now as of today...Basicly he has gotten away with it.

Full story in the Evening Herald this evening.

But yet Phil Hogan will have a person up in court for not paying a 100 euro HHC.

Lovely Irish society we live in today.

paddy147

Mick Wallace story here.....


http://www.herald.ie/news/wallace-delight-as-enforcer-wont-go-after-him-3210900.html

woodoo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is not just wages they are against cuts in the headline rate of welfare. The sociial welafre budget is about 18-20 billion. Wages in the PS are over 20 billion so it leave only small parts of the budget to cut from.

Its nowhere near 20 billion:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

Dannyboy83

woodoo wrote: »

Its nowhere near 20 billion:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

It's probably time we had some updated figures.

I think everyone still works off the McCarthy report figures:

antoobrien

woodoo wrote: »

Its nowhere near 20 billion:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-public-sector-wage-bill-to-fall-by-almost-4bn-548335.html

It's actually approx €18.5bn this year. Taken from the CSO earnings survey

2012 Q2 Public service average weekly wage: 918.99
2012 Q2 Public sector workers: 388,500
Estimated cost for the year: €18,565,435,980

antoobrien

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's probably time we had some updated figures.

This year's estimates are probably more accurate than my last post.

PS pay (table 4) €15.374 bn
PS Pensions (T 5): €3.038 bn

Tea drinker

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes you are right you can add
increased property tax
Increased college fees
water rates
Generally anything that effects workers of your above there will harly be any increase in Vat as it got hammered last year, little or no extra tax on alachol oe cigs effects the unemployed the most no reduvtion on welfare and no reduction on PS wage rates even though they are one of the highest in Europe.

Tax the private sector out of existance.

Hitting the most vulnerable in society as usual (PAYE and self employed minnows). Hopefully they will reduce to zero child benefit for 3rd and subsequent children born 10 months after the budget announcement.
It looks like they might finally be starting to realise Croke park needs to be addressed, some light at the end of the tunnel, not nearly enough to get us out of the dodo.

Lawrence1895

Don't know, if I post it in the right section of the forum, but...

I heard on the radio this morning, they are thinking about scrapping the Free Travel Scheme for the Elderly, and even more important for me, for Carers.

Right, I am looking after a guy in a wheelchair, who needs assistance, whenever he uses public transport, otherwise he gets lost and disorientated, due to his medical condition.

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

antoobrien

Lars1916 wrote: »

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

The total spend on social welfare for a single year is more than the total amount of money that has been put into the banks from the exchequer since 2008.

Lawrence1895

antoobrien wrote: »

The total spend on social welfare for a single year is more than the total amount of money that has been put into the banks from the exchequer since 2008.

I didn't say, everything is fine with the social welfare system. Something has to be changed, but this is a cut at the very right end, imo.

Godge

Lars1916 wrote: »

Don't know, if I post it in the right section of the forum, but...

I heard on the radio this morning, they are thinking about scrapping the Free Travel Scheme for the Elderly, and even more important for me, for Carers.

Right, I am looking after a guy in a wheelchair, who needs assistance, whenever he uses public transport, otherwise he gets lost and disorientated, due to his medical condition.

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

There is massive widespread abuse of the free travel scheme. Travelling regularly on buses I have witnessed many things that would make you sick.

In one case I witnessed a man travelling on a carer's pass supposedly looking after a mentally ill woman. Getting off the bus at O'Connell St bridge, he told her to go home on her own but to be back in town by 5 so he could travel home from work with her. Maybe I picked it up wrong as over-hearing things you can sometimes but how someone could do that to someone they were caring for is beyond me.

I know a few people who work on the buses and they all confirm that the scheme is widely abused.

I am not saying that you abuse it but at the very least they should introduce restrictions. There used to be one that you could not travel at peak times. A credit card system with photo should also be introduced.

Lawrence1895

Godge wrote: »

There is massive widespread abuse of the free travel scheme. Travelling regularly on buses I have witnessed many things that would make you sick.

In one case I witnessed a man travelling on a carer's pass supposedly looking after a mentally ill woman. Getting off the bus at O'Connell St bridge, he told her to go home on her own but to be back in town by 5 so he could travel home from work with her. Maybe I picked it up wrong as over-hearing things you can sometimes but how someone could do that to someone they were caring for is beyond me.

I know a few people who work on the buses and they all confirm that the scheme is widely abused.

I am not saying that you abuse it but at the very least they should introduce restrictions. There used to be one that you could not travel at peak times. A credit card system with photo should also be introduced.

Well, the guy, I'm looking after, needed a letter from his GP, stating his medical condition, and that he needs someone to travel with him. Not sure, if they are asking for a GP's letter all the time, since he only moved out of residential care into the community about one year ago.

murphaph

Lars1916 wrote: »

Well, the guy, I'm looking after, needed a letter from his GP, stating his medical condition, and that he needs someone to travel with him. Not sure, if they are asking for a GP's letter all the time, since he only moved out of residential care into the community about one year ago.

GPs have been known to sign forms they shouldn't be signing. There should be a more independent way of assessment rather than relying on a GP who couldn't care either way and faces no sanction for signing off on such forms in error.

Godge

murphaph wrote: »

GPs have been known to sign forms they shouldn't be signing. There should be a more independent way of assessment rather than relying on a GP who couldn't care either way and faces no sanction for signing off on such forms in error.

Very good point, sick certificates for work is another very good example of this.

Lawrence1895

Godge wrote: »

Very good point, sick certificates for work is another very good example of this.

What would happen, if a GP was reported for handing out a fake cert?

avalon68

Lars1916 wrote: »

Totally not acceptable for me either, a vulnerable person is put into s serious risk, just because the government needs money to bail out Anglo Irish and other criminals

they need money to bridge a deficit that has little to do with bailing out the banks. The government is simply spending more than it earns in taxes......it sucks, but spending needs to be cut and tax need to be increased. Can't have it both ways.....people complain about tax increases, then complain about cuts to services which would be funded by tax increases.

murphaph

Lars1916 wrote: »

What would happen, if a GP was reported for handing out a fake cert?

I would imagine....nothing!

The GP can claim that in his medical opinion, the patient was at the time suffering from x and was unfit for work.

To establish that the cert was "fake" you'd have to get the patient to consent to another medical examination by some sort of independent doctor. Noner of these processes nor structures exist, so GPs remain more or less free to falsify a large swathe of documents.

lmimmfn

Tea drinker wrote: »

Hitting the most vulnerable in society as usual (PAYE and self employed minnows).

lol, that made me chuckle, its true though. They'll rape the PAYE contributer until they can no longer contribute and jack it all in and go on the dole.

Its going to be really interesting( unfortunately ) to see the state of people's lives in 3-4 years time. What annoys me is the absolute waste i see every day, road resurfacing for roads that didnt need resurfacing, rebuilding of roundabouts because theyre 'too high', and with all the austerity and people struggling theyre still overspending.

NakedNNettles

lmimmfn wrote: »

What annoys me is the absolute waste i see every day, road resurfacing for roads that didnt need resurfacing, rebuilding of roundabouts because theyre 'too high'.

Yeah, totally agree, a joke alright, its all these smaller things that are adding up to the wastefulness in this country.

syklops

Lars1916 wrote: »

I didn't say, everything is fine with the social welfare system. Something has to be changed, but this is a cut at the very right end, imo.

After last weeks u-turn I would say the carers will be ok for the moment. The free travel for the elderly definitely needs to be looked at.

The cuts to the carers that had Joe Duffys lines ringing was 10 million cut to the carers allowance. The free travel scheme costs the tax payer 75 million. As I said on the Joe Duffy thread, after hearing all the sob stories from carers about how much work they do for such little money etc, it was kind of hard to have sympathy with them 3 days later, when after getting the decision repealed, they were on again complaining that the free travel might be cut. We have to cut something.

Lawrence1895

syklops wrote: »

After last weeks u-turn I would say the carers will be ok for the moment. The free travel for the elderly definitely needs to be looked at.

The cuts to the carers that had Joe Duffys lines ringing was 10 million cut to the carers allowance. The free travel scheme costs the tax payer 75 million. As I said on the Joe Duffy thread, after hearing all the sob stories from carers about how much work they do for such little money etc, it was kind of hard to have sympathy with them 3 days later, when after getting the decision repealed, they were on again complaining that the free travel might be cut. We have to cut something.

I wasn't really moaning about the payment, I get, even if that was cut down quite a lot, after the new government took over (the old crowd was not better, but I got more pay cuts under the new shower). What I was saying was, the person, I'm looking after, would be put at risk, if he has to travel on his own, he is not screwing the system.

syklops

Lars1916 wrote: »

I wasn't really moaning about the payment, I get, even if that was cut down quite a lot, after the new government took over (the old crowd was not better, but I got more pay cuts under the new shower). What I was saying was, the person, I'm looking after, would be put at risk, if he has to travel on his own, he is not screwing the system.

I never for one minute suggested he is screwing the system. I said we have to cut something. The carers allowance is not going to be touched(for now at least), but the savings still need to be cut. If he gets free travel, why can't he pay for your ticket? The government is not banning carers from travelling with their charges, just thinking about removing the free travel.

robp

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm all for people getting PhD's etc but if its not going to benefit our economy they should not be funded by the taxpayer and now they are leaving the island with their qualifications and basically giving the tax payer the two fingers. nice.

Scholarships for PhD students are the norm all over Europe and even the world. Its not reasonable to expect people to do PhDs with out tuition and living expenses covered. The research done by PhD students is actually an extremely cheap way to sponsor research. The stipend they receive is a small fraction of what a salaried researcher would earn.
These can be given on a competitive basis, but must be at least present.

Geuze

antoobrien wrote: »

The total spend on social welfare for a single year is more than the total amount of money that has been put into the banks from the exchequer since 2008.

This statement is incorrect.

The banking crisis has cost 62.8 bn.

Welfare spending is approx 21bn pa.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/CorporatePublications/StrategicPlansAndReports/Documents/ar2011.pdf