So we dont have to pay back German Bondholders

paddy147

.....anyone want to comment on this and how the ECB have threatened us and forced us to pay billions that we never had to pay...

Colm McCarthy digs up the truth about the ECB,and Pat Rabbit finally admits to a few interesting things too.

Ireland have a case to take against the ECB in the European Courts of Justice to get back the billions of euros we should never have paid in the 1st place.

Makes for very interesting viewing.;)




http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/52207/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne



PS-I wonder will Kenny and Noonan now finally stand up to the ECB and Germany,or will they still suck up to them both.

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

.....anyone want to comment on this and how the ECB have threatened us and forced us to pay billions that we never had to pay...

Colm McCarthy digs up the truth about the ECB,and Pat Rabbit finally admits to a few interesting things too.

Ireland have a case to take against the ECB in the European Courts of Justice to get back the billions of euros we should never have paid in the 1st place.

Makes for very interesting viewing.;)


http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/52207/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.

paddy147

liammur wrote: »

We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.

Watch the link and listen to what is said and what is also admitted 1st.

juan.kerr

I think the reality here is we need / needed the goodwill of the 'Troika'.

If we had written off everything how would the country have funded the 20 billion annual deficit? Because the 'Troika' wouldn't have been too eager to lend, nor would the 'markets'.

I'm sure we could now argue that we should have done an Iceland on it but, we didn't at the time so we are where we are.

Any write offs will be because we are thrown a few crumbs from the top table or because it is politically expedient for the ECB to change the policy for the benefit of larger / more important members.

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

Watch the link and listen to what is said and what is also admitted 1st.

I saw the program on TV. Talking crap he is. Front up and take responsibility.
Yes, the ECB has been bullying us around, and bullying Greece. But can you really blame them ?

paddy147

liammur wrote: »

I saw the program on TV. Talking crap he is. Front up and take responsibility.
Yes, the ECB has been bullying us around, and bullying Greece. But can you really blame them ?

So what about Pat Rabbits admissions??

Yes,I do blame the ECB,they had no authority to do so in the 1st place.

Thats why we not have a legal case against them in the European Courts of Justice.

later12

liammur wrote: »

We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.

In fairness, it's really time we were rid of repetitive, clichéd references to beaten dockets, and other such inappropriate metaphors for the Irish banking and sovereign crises.

I think it's something that the Cabinet should explore. But what struck me as most peculiar during that interview was that Rabbitte seemed to suggest that the communication from the ECB in question has never been discussed at Cabinet, despite receiving significant attention in the media, and he appeared completely unaware of it

liammur

later12 wrote: »

In fairness, it's really time we were rid of repetitive, clichéd references to beaten dockets, and other such inappropriate metaphors for the Irish banking and sovereign crises.

I think it's something that the Cabinet should explore. But what struck me as most peculiar during that interview was that Rabbitte seemed to suggest that the communication from the ECB in question has never been discussed at Cabinet, despite receiving significant attention in the media, and he appeared completely unaware of it

I'm sure you'd find support for this in Greece & Spain as well.

paddy147

In fairness to Mr Rabbit..hes the only one that seems to talk with any respect on VB.
Any other FG just waffles on and on and trys to avoid the questions.

Mr Rabbit at least did seem to be genuine

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

So what about Pat Rabbits admissions??

Yes,I do blame the ECB,they had no authority to do so in the 1st place.

Thats why we not have a legal case against them in the European Courts of Justice.

I don't rate C McCarthy. We went on a solo run in 08, now we're paying the price for that.

paddy147

We have a case against the ECB so we should be in Court against them ASAP.

This is OUR money thats being handed over and we were forced to hand it over.

Its about fcuking time that this country finally stood up to the ECB and Germany too.


No more of this "how high should we jump" attitude from Kenny and Noonan.

Grow a set of balls,get tough and stick it to the ECB and Germany.

paddy147

liammur wrote: »

I don't rate C McCarthy. We went on a solo run in 08, now we're paying the price for that.

And what about Pat Rabbits admissions then (seen as he is a front bench minister)???

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

We have a case against the ECB so we should be in Court against them ASAP.

This is OUR money thats being handed over and we were forced to hand it over.

Its about fcuking time that this country finally stood up to the ECB and Germany too.


No more of this "how high should we jump" attitude from Kenny and Noonan.

Grow a set of balls,get tough and stick it to the ECB and Germany.

That's a bit like a man saying 'go on, throw the rock at my house'...and his house consists of nothing but glass.

paddy147

I see you are avoiding Pat Rabbits admissions...why??

paddy147

liammur wrote: »

That's a bit like a man saying 'go on, throw the rock at my house'...and his house consists of nothing but glass.

Eh no,its more like being upfront and very blunt with the ECB and Germans.

Kenny,Noonan and Gilmore can be blunt and upfront with us Irish people and force us to pay this that and the other charge and tax,,but somehow none of them have the balls to be upfront and blunt with the ECB or the Germans on this very serious matter.

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

I see you are avoiding Pat Rabbits admissions...why??

Even though I rate him as 1 of our better politicians, unfortunately, he's woefully out of his depth.

paddy147

liammur wrote: »

Even though I rate him as 1 of our better politicians, unfortunately, he's woefully out of his depth.

Sure the whole FG front bench are then too...when it comes to the ECB and Germany.


Its like they all suddenly have "selective memories" and then suddenly develop "stagefright".:rolleyes:

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

Sure the whole FG front bench are then too...when it comes to the ECB and Germany.


Its like they all suddenly develop "stagefright".:rolleyes:

I don't rate them at all.

But they have little choice. I know the guy on 4fm phone reckons enda should be bullying merkel and the IMF/ECB. Anyone you hear saying this is clueless.

paddy147

German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???

dunphy3

paddy147 wrote: »

German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???

call me a idiot but at least i recoganise that the politicans will do noting,????

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???

Not necessarily. We want it both ways, I agree those bondholders should have lost, but then the banks must have been allowed to go bust.

woodoo

liammur wrote: »

We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.

Cowan lost the bet for us. Read this and just think this was the man making the decisions. Getting that plastered midweek and trying to run a county.
http://www.thejournal.ie/brian-cowen-galway-drinking-hangover-morning-ireland-570735-Aug2012/?utm_source=twitter_self

hmmm

Which German bondholders exactly are you talking about?

Good loser

paddy147 wrote: »

German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???

paddy 147 I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Colm Mac writes an article in the Sunday Indo, and talks for 20 mins on the VB show, and you think we have the basis for a court action against the ECB to claim €10bn, €20bn or €30 bn from them!!

In the first instance shouldn't the money be claimed back from the people 'we' paid it to? i.e. the bondholders. And who are they as hmmm asks? What if they have distributed this money to their pensioners? Should we then pursue these pensioners?

In the second instance it was the banks that paid the bondholders - not you or me or us.

In the third instance the repayments are over - all the money (virtually) is already gone.

Noonan, Kenny can do as they do in this country because they have POWER. Merkel has the power in Germany and because Germany is the paymaster of the ECB she has power there too. You cannot wield power unless you have it - that is the meaning of the word.

To persuade Merkel we would have to persuade the German people. How do you suggest we do that? Send over Fintan O Toole? Or Pearse Doherty?

Farmer Pudsey

Good loser wrote: »

paddy 147 I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Colm Mac writes an article in the Sunday Indo, and talks for 20 mins on the VB show, and you think we have the basis for a court action against the ECB to claim €10bn, €20bn or €30 bn from them!!

In the first instance shouldn't the money be claimed back from the people 'we' paid it to? i.e. the bondholders. And who are they as hmmm asks? What if they have distributed this money to their pensioners? Should we then pursue these pensioners?

In the second instance it was the banks that paid the bondholders - not you or me or us.

In the third instance the repayments are over - all the money (virtually) is already gone.

Noonan, Kenny can do as they do in this country because they have POWER. Merkel has the power in Germany and because Germany is the paymaster of the ECB she has power there too. You cannot wield power unless you have it - that is the meaning of the word.

To persuade Merkel we would have to persuade the German people. How do you suggest we do that? Send over Fintan O Toole? Or Pearse Doherty?

Loser some of what you say is right however there are still 20 Billion in bonds to be paid so half a loaf is better than no bread. Also what have we to lose if we go to the European Court and win it is the ECB not Merkel that will be directly paying us. And I know that merkel has to pay in the end.

This has nothing with German public opinion how often is there public outrage over a court ruling. Nobody is saying we will win however some think we have a sound legal basis to take a case.

The European Comission has used it against us at time are we not entitled to use it, no we are supposed to sit on Angela knee like a lapdog taking whatever scraps she deems to give us.

Some posters make the point that we gauranteed the bonds yes we did for two years and that guarantee was coming to an end and we would have been under no obligation to pay any more after Sept 2010 instead we were bounced into a deal that has cost this country and its population a lot of money.

There is an old saying ''nice guys finish last''. We are continually the nice guys we need politicians to stand up for there country what is happening to us is an economic war and we have to use any and every means at our disposal to put legal and moral pressure on the ECB, EMF, European Comission and Germany to give us a break. Also even the IMF did not want us to honour all bonds.

paddy147

Good loser wrote: »

paddy 147 I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Colm Mac writes an article in the Sunday Indo, and talks for 20 mins on the VB show, and you think we have the basis for a court action against the ECB to claim €10bn, €20bn or €30 bn from them!!

In the first instance shouldn't the money be claimed back from the people 'we' paid it to? i.e. the bondholders. And who are they as hmmm asks? What if they have distributed this money to their pensioners? Should we then pursue these pensioners?

In the second instance it was the banks that paid the bondholders - not you or me or us.

In the third instance the repayments are over - all the money (virtually) is already gone.

Noonan, Kenny can do as they do in this country because they have POWER. Merkel has the power in Germany and because Germany is the paymaster of the ECB she has power there too. You cannot wield power unless you have it - that is the meaning of the word.

To persuade Merkel we would have to persuade the German people. How do you suggest we do that? Send over Fintan O Toole? Or Pearse Doherty?

You want to know what to do and how we persuade Germany???

here you go.....

Angela Merkil...Give us the money Mr Kenny and Ireland


Enda Kenny... Eh NO Angela,you got more than enough off of us,so go and feck off now.In fact you OWE US back alot of money,so hand it over NOW.If you dont,then we will see you in Court.



Simples.:D


PS-Its called having a SPINE,and a SET OF BALLS too.

FreudianSlippers

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

if we go to the European Court ...

Take who to the ECJ and for what?

paddy147

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Take who to the ECJ and for what?

Because the ECB has breached/acted out of its authority with regards what we had to pay back and when too.We were forced to pay,when we never should have had to pay the bondholders.

Look at the VB link and programme,and also listen to what Pat Rabbit says/admits.

Its about time that Irish got/get tough with the ECB and the German bondholders.

FreudianSlippers

paddy147 wrote: »

Because the ECB has breached/acted out of its authority with regards what we had to pay back and when too.We were forced to pay,when we never should have had to pay the bondholders.

That's not what I asked.

Who
Why


If your answer is sue the ECB because they acted ultra vires their powers, you have to establish that they have a set parameter of powers outside of which they acted. Failing that you would need to establish a contractual nexus between Ireland and the ECB or seek a remedy in tort - neither of which I believe you will find sufficiently to bring legal action in this regard against the ECB.

In fact, anyone calling for legal action against the ECB is being wholly disingenuous and populist. There is provision in the treaties for a MS to sue the ECB, but you must have a case against them. In the present circumstances Ireland voluntarily initiated the bailout - the only legal action would be that the ECB threatened to withdraw liquidity support (which it didn't, in fact do) outside of its powers; Ireland would have to show that this "forced" them to initiate the bailout. You'd be hard pressed to prove that to a court especially because you'd have to establish a causal relationship between all of the events and show that the actions of the ECB were the sole reason to bail out - our politicians would never do this, way too much dirty laundry would be aired..

Look at the VB link and programme,and also listen to what Pat Rabbit says/admits.

I have little to no interest in armchair lawyers spouting on about suing people when they seem to not understand that you must prove a wrong in court. You can't just walk in and sue whoever you want without a breach of some sort. There is simply no visible case against the ECB.

Its about time that Irish got/get tough with the ECB and the German bondholders.

This nonsense is getting old tbh. It's time the Irish government grew up and were replaced by competent people like the ECB and the Germans.

paddy147

Pat Rabbit is a "front bench goverment minsister" who admitted a fair few things on the VB show.

Ireland DO have a case against the ECB in the Europen Courts of Justice..thats a fact.



Im gald you think that its getting old..when alot of people have now been proved right....with regards not having to pay the german bondholders.

I have given you facts and shown you a link (wonder did you even watch the VB show???)...and you seem to be in total denial of anything relating to the ECB and bondholders fleecing us out of our money.

By we all know what Kenny and Noonan will do...they will act all tough on the Irish People...but they wont even make a whimper to the ECB and Germany.

Fcuking typical FG then.


PS-20 odd billion euro back in our pockets couldnt and wouldnt do anything for the "irish domestic economy"...NO????

EH YES IT WOULD.

FreudianSlippers

paddy147 wrote: »

Pat Rabbit is a "front bench goverment minsister" who admitted a fair dew things on the VB show.

Pat Rabbitte is a career politician who is responsible for spin communications. I don't know what he admitted to whom, but I cannot see any solid legal basis for suing the ECB.

As I said, regardless of what he admitted, there are wider implications of the truth behind the bailout being revealed if this went to court. There are too many politicians that protected their friends and family when the bailout was done. They will not want that on the public record.

Ireland DO have a case against the ECB in the Europen Courts of Justice..thats a fact.

FOR WHAT? It's not a fact just because you say it is. Legally, what is the case against the ECB?

Im gald you think that its getting old..when alot of people have now been proved right....with regards not paying the german bondholders.

I'm sorry? I see no vindication for anyone here to be honest. It's all a bit too little too late.

I have given you facts and shown you a link (wonder did you even watch the VB show???)...and you seem to be in total denial of anything relating to the ECB and bondholders fleecing us out of our money.

You have given absolutely zero facts actually. The link is unsubstantiated opinion and I don't really care to watch the VB show.

By we all know what Kenny and Noonan will do...they will act all tough on the Irish People...but they wont even make a whimper to the ECB and Germany.

Fcuking typical FG then.

The big, bad Germany stuff is also getting really old.

paddy147

Oh sweet lord jesus....does anyone watch and listen these days???

Look and Listen carefully to what Mr McCarthy says and states and then listen to what Mr Rabbit then says and admits to aswell.

Its not rocket science.

Cheerful Spring

The end game the solution is we'll have to join a federal Europe or leave the Euro. But that solution of course means bankers will have more power over peoples daily lives. Is this intentional of course it is folks! The bond market is a rigged game too when you have populations of countries and their elected politicians willing to pay back their losses with interest. Is there any wonder pressure is therefore applied to seek bailouts?

Good loser

paddy147 wrote: »

Oh sweet lord jesus....does anyone watch and listen these days???

Look and Listen carefully to what Mr McCarthy says and states and then listen to what Mr Rabbit then says and admits to aswell.

Its not rocket science.

You don't seem to be aware, paddy, that there is only a two month window, after an ECB action, in which to bring a court case against them?

You have now been so informed. In these circumstances what do you suggest?

Also with respect to my earlier post who should give us the €20 bn 'back'?

Geuze

The ownership of the senior bank bonds is not made public.

The owners are likely to be managed funds, pension funds, etc., from all over Europe.

later12

Good loser wrote: »

You don't seem to be aware, paddy, that there is only a two month window, after an ECB action, in which to bring a court case against them?

I presume you're referring here to article 265 of the TFEU?

In which case, it's not quite clear that the ECB has yet been "called to act", since we do not know the contents of the letter. Until the contents of the letter to the Irish administration is revealed, how on Earth can the ECB be called to act

What McCarthy is after is a judicial review so as that the contents of the letter might be at least discovered.

Sponge Bob

We paid most of the German Bondholders by January 2011. The case is about getting this money BACK...if the case is taken that is.

Good loser

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We paid most of the German Bondholders by January 2011. The case is about getting this money BACK...if the case is taken that is.

But the suggested case is against the ECB i. e. they are to be the defendents.

Good loser

later12 wrote: »

I presume you're referring here to article 265 of the TFEU?

In which case, it's not quite clear that the ECB has yet been "called to act", since we do not know the contents of the letter. Until the contents of the letter to the Irish administration is revealed, how on Earth can the ECB be called to act

What McCarthy is after is a judicial review so as that the contents of the letter might be at least discovered.

But the parties to any action would be aware of the contents. Unless they knew the contents, and acted on them, there would be no case against the ECB.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

The ownership of the senior bank bonds is not made public. The owners are likely to be managed funds, pension funds, etc., from all over Europe.

The list of names of the senior bondholders in Anglo was leaked from a confidential report a couple of years back. It's available online fairly easily with a bit of googling. It's unverified/unverifiable of course, due to it's very nature, but if it's to be believed then you're right on the money. It's made up of of all the usual suspects, the major players in vulture capitalism in London, Europe, and New York for the most part. I won't mention any specifics for fear of Libel issues, board infractions, etc, but if you think of any major worldwide name in the field of making the rich richer and the poor poorer over the last 30 years, they are likely to be on there....

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The big, bad Germany stuff is also getting really old.

It may be getting old, but it's nonetheless still 100% relevant. Germany are a very powerful player in EU policy making and they have vested interests in all of this which are diametrically opposed to our own. They have shown many times over the last few years that they are not afraid to hamper the interests of minor countries like Ireland to protect their own position.

paddy147 wrote: »

I wonder will Kenny and Noonan now finally stand up to the ECB and Germany,or will they still suck up to them both.

I hope so, and i think now is the time to strike while the iron is hot. So far, successive Irish administrations have done nothing but buddy up to the IMF/ECB and particularly the EU leaders and play the good boy in the class in the hope that we'll be given a gold star. Realistically all that's of concern to them right now is the troublesome row of bullies down the back and the kid over in the corner who's threatening to set fire to the curtains if he doesn't get some attention. We are a minor problem which is slowly sorting itself out. We will get nothing but more delaying tactics with our current approach, which is why i think it's refreshing to see Noonan and co starting to look like they are beginning to move the pieces into place for some concerted action against Europe instead of being prepared to accept further worthless assurances while implementing increasingly savage budgets year-on-year.

I read Noonan's comments in the press over the weekend regarding the possible release of a 2010 threatening letter from Jean Claude Trichet in relation to forcing the Late minister Lenihan's hand on the Irish bailout. It was a refreshing change of strategy from a finance minister who i would have more respect for than i do for his party and their position so far on all of this. This matter on the Vincent Browne show would appear to signal a co-ordinated approach from FG/Labour in preparation for a more pressing demand on partial debt forgiveness from the EU.

Maybe they have finally seen that by threatening to start a little fire of our own we'll get some attention in what has become a culture of fire fighting in Europe.

antoobrien

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We paid most of the German Bondholders by January 2011. The case is about getting this money BACK...if the case is taken that is.

Lets try to stop this fallacy one and for all. We were not paying back German (or French) bondholders. The Euro area bonds were a small percentage of the overall bonds held. While the overall levels have dropped they have not gone down nearly as much as the RoW bonds. The Euro area bonds held by Irish banks have dropped by €8bn since 2007. The RoW bonds have dropped by €61bn.

Here's a summary of the information in the above link wrt bonds held by the banks with Irish operations between 2007 & 2011 (amounts in €bn at Eoy):

Year | Irish |Euro Area | RoW
2007 | 29 | 15 | 77
2008 | 27 | 16 | 57
2009 | 39 | 12 | 47
2010 | 33 | 10 | 21
2011 | 30 | 8 | 14
'12 H1 | 25 | 7 |8


The corresponding information for the covered institutions (i.e. Irish banks)
Year | Irish |Euro Area | RoW
2007 | 28 | 13 | 75
2008 | 26 | 14 | 54
2009 | 38 | 11 | 46
2010 | 33 | 10 | 20
2011 | 29 | 8 | 13
'12 H1| 25 | 7 | 8


To be very clear about this, there have been about €6bn in bonds paid to Euro area institutions since 2008 from the Irish banks, so we are NOT propping up German or French institutions.

later12

Good loser wrote: »

But the parties to any action would be aware of the contents. Unless they knew the contents, and acted on them, there would be no case against the ECB.

But just to clarify, are you talking about Article 265 of the TFEU?

To clarify, McCarthy is suggesting bringing a case against the ECB under article 340 of the TFEU, in conjunction with the ECB's own statutes; which by my reading of it doesn't suffer the same temporal restrictions mentioned in Article 265.

Moreover, it wouldn't necessarily be the state taking a case against the ECB, but perhaps an affected institution. Therefore, even if there were some sort of time limit, because of the fact that the contents of the letter are yet to be discovered, it seems unlikely that any time limit would apply, as yet.

PopeBuckfastXVI

antoobrien wrote: »

To be very clear about this, there have been about €6bn in bonds paid to Euro area institutions since 2008 from the Irish banks, so we are NOT propping up German or French institutions.

Oh don't worry, the 'Burners' don't care about French banks any more, now that Sarkozy is out and Hollande is in...

poeticseraphim

You do realize that many Bondholders are Irish and if you burn some bondholders you must burn all.

Some are British..our economy is very much linked to the British economy and we would go into deeper recession with them.

Some are American...if you think you can take on the Americans your crazy.

Some are Spanish and German....and if they go down so do we.


We are currently negotiating a deal to write it off with the IMF.

I don't hold with either camp either that we screw the Germans or let them run the place NEITHER is the answer.


Eu regulatory legislation hampered audits and allowed for banks to misprepresent their finances . But Irish company law could have been enforced had the regulator been competent and honest.

It is not the Germans fault...they are not blameless...

We could burn the bondholders...but the markets would destroy us for it lending for us would go higher than it is for Spain.

THE GOVT IS DOING THE RIGHT THING

We are actually doing the best out of the PIIGS..

PADDY if you took a look at our economy and how the markets have responded to us and at indications of a deal i think you would admit they got it right.

antoobrien

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Oh don't worry, the 'Burners' don't care about French banks any more, now that Sarkozy is out and Hollande is in...

True, but those figures give a good idea of why the various parties were so against the idea of bondholders getting burned. In the US alone in September 2008 Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac, Merril Lynch, Lehman Brothers, AIG and Washington Mutual all collapsed.

liammur

Noonan willing to reveal the letter. FF trying to cash in. How desperate a party they still are.

FINANCE Minister Michael Noonan says he is willing to overrule civil servants in his department and release a letter from the ECB which forced Ireland into a bailout.

Mr Noonan was speaking in Limerick this morning, and said it “would be appropriate” for him to publish the letter, despite his department previously refusing to release it under Freedom of Information legislation.



The November 2010 letter from then ECB president Jean Claude Trichet to former finance minister Brian Lenihan is said to have threatened the withdrawal of emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) to Ireland if the then government refused to accept the bailout, that included a ban on burning bondholders.



"Usually, communications of an international nature are not subject to freedom of information, so, the freedom of information unit in the Department of Finance decided not to release it publicly,” Mr Noonan said.



“And their equivalents in Frankfurt in the European Central Bank took a similar view.



"But, my view on it is that, it would be appropriate for me to overrule the independence of those that decide on freedom of information."



Fianna Fail’s Michael McGrath has called for the letter to be released, but Mr Noonan said his party had their own opportunity to do it while in power.



Mr Noonan said the letter will be given to whatever banking inquiry is set up, and it will then be up to the inquiry to publish it.

later12

liammur wrote: »

Noonan willing to reveal the letter. FF trying to cash in. How desperate a party they still are.

I am quite genuinely amazed at the ongoing desire to use any item in the news as a Fianna Fail bashing exercise.

Seriously, people have just gotten what they wanted, and your first utterance is about Fianna Fail. Whilst I am not going to stand up and come to Fianna Fail's defense over much of their handling of the economic & banking crisis, surely there are more interesting or relevant points to derive from this story than an exercise in FF bashing.

I find it genuinely disturbing that the thrust of so much of our economic discourse is focused on a party which, to any neutral observer, should be a total irrelevance.

If anti FF tit-for-tat is going to characterize public discourse on accounting for and evaluating the policies of the crisis, I'm afraid we're not likely to ever learn anything.

liammur

later12 wrote: »

I am quite genuinely amazed at the ongoing desire to use any item in the news as a Fianna Fail bashing exercise.

Seriously, people have just gotten what they wanted, and your first utterance is about Fianna Fail. Whilst I am not going to stand up and come to Fianna Fail's defense over much of their handling of the economic & banking crisis, surely there are more interesting or relevant points to derive from this story than an exercise in FF bashing.

I find it genuinely disturbing that the thrust of so much of our economic discourse is focused on a party which, to any neutral observer, should be a total irrelevance.

If anti FF tit-for-tat is going to characterize public discourse on accounting for and evaluating the policies of the crisis, I'm afraid we're not likely to ever learn anything.

Out comes FF spokesperson calling for the letter to be released. Well, as Noonan said, if he was that concerned, why the hell didn't they release it themselves when they were in power? That's the type of politics everyone should be concerned about.

later12

liammur wrote: »

Out comes FF spokesperson calling for the letter to be released. Well, as Noonan said, if he was that concerned, why the hell didn't they release it themselves when they were in power? That's the type of politics everyone should be concerned about.

Is that really the big news story today? Really?

Lets see the contents of the letter & then see whether it vindicates or explains the behaviour of the then Minister for Finance. Either way, we really need to move on from making every single economic story an anti FF tirade, don't you agree?

liammur

later12 wrote: »

Is that really the big news story today? Really?

Lets see the contents of the letter & then see whether it vindicates or explains the behaviour of the then Minister for Finance. Either way, we really need to move on from making every single economic story an anti FF tirade, don't you agree?

I completely disagree.
It's far bigger than you think. There's a breach of trust here if the government releases that letter. FF know that. I know that. My dog knows that. So here we have them trying to taunt the government into making a potentially massive mistake. That's not the type of opposition party I want. For once, they should think of putting the country first.

Sponge Bob

antoobrien wrote: »

Lets try to stop this fallacy one and for all. We were not paying back German (or French) bondholders.

Let me rephrase, the title implies we have big payments to make, I wished to point out that most payments HAD been made by January 2011....I take your point as to who was paid.