We pay the dole of 6 people with our taxes - We're off to the US

TheTurk1972

My wife and I worked out that our combined income tax pays the full dole of 6 unemployed people.

We both worked in the US for a few years before and tax there is nothing compared to what we pay in Ireland.

We would like to stay in Ireland as its home afterall, but seriously, if we have to pay anymore in tax after this next budget we're off, back to the US.

So while Noonan is raising taxes, yet again, for hard working people, he can think about how he's going to raise it enough to keep those 6 people on the dole without our income tax. He can also figure out where he's going to make up the money we wont be spending in Ireland every year either.

Really getting tired of being the ones getting gouged by the government.
Does anyone else feel the same way.

Bullseye1

I'm sure your not alone in your frustration at being gouged in your take home pay. But the US has its own problems so its not all rosey over there. We just have particularly poor standard of politician.

28064212

Hope you don't have trouble finding work in the US, good luck on their social welfare. Or worse, you really don't want to fall ill over there

EDIT: Oh, and your tax doesn't pay for 6 people on the dole. It pays for the roads you use, the hospitals you attend and the education your children receive

Cedrus

"If" your income tax covers six peoples dole + all of the other things that tax pays for (government, civil servants, hospitals, emergency services, roads, your own dole at some point in the future, pensions etc) then you are a serious wedge.

pontia

i wouldent worry.your taxes are helping eastern. europe africa and the middle east as well as a few people in ireland

liammur

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

My wife and I worked out that our combined income tax pays the full dole of 6 unemployed people.

We both worked in the US for a few years before and tax there is nothing compared to what we pay in Ireland.

We would like to stay in Ireland as its home afterall, but seriously, if we have to pay anymore in tax after this next budget we're off, back to the US.

So while Noonan is raising taxes, yet again, for hard working people, he can think about how he's going to raise it enough to keep those 6 people on the dole without our income tax. He can also figure out where he's going to make up the money we wont be spending in Ireland every year either.

Really getting tired of being the ones getting gouged by the government.
Does anyone else feel the same way.

I'd say you are talking complete rubbish here. The full dole payment in this country is roughly over €20K. Very few in this country are paying €120K in taxes.

ResearchWill

Best of luck over there, hope you don't have many kids the cost of education will be huge, also will be great to know your tax dollars over there will support the largest military and prison population in the World.

BTW it's good that Ireland gave you the education in life that was so good for both yourself and the wife that ye earn enough to pay over a grand a week in tax.

TheTurk1972

Cedrus wrote: »

"If" your income tax covers six peoples dole + all of the other things that tax pays for (government, civil servants, hospitals, emergency services, roads, your own dole at some point in the future, pensions etc) then you are a serious wedge.

WTF are you whining for?

I didnt say " + all the other things". I used it as a round figure. All of my taxes = x amount. X amount is equivalent to 6 peoples dole money.

TheTurk1972

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm sure your not alone in your frustration at being gouged in your take home pay. But the US has its own problems so its not all rosey over there. We just have particularly poor standard of politician.

I still go there regularly for work.
You should work out what tax you would pay over there, or elsewhere, and see how it compares. Its shocking.

augustus gloop wrote: »

goodbye cant say youll be missed, some people are on the dole as a last resort, thank god those 6 people had you the last few years.
enjoy america

I dont really care whether i'll be missed or not. I'm making the point that if enough people have had enough here, what will happen here?

Gouging people too much will have consequences. And the government need to look at what they will be.

ResearchWill

liammur wrote: »

I'd say you are talking complete rubbish here. The full dole payment in this country is roughly over €20K. Very few in this country are paying €120K in taxes.

€400 a week on the dole wow I'm giving up work and there I thought it was less than €190.

wyndhurst

liammur wrote: »

I'd say you are talking complete rubbish here. The full dole payment in this country is roughly over €20K. Very few in this country are paying €120K in taxes.

Work for the Dept of Finance by any chance?
€188 x 52wks = €9776/yr
Am I missing something here?

TheTurk1972

28064212 wrote: »

Hope you don't have trouble finding work in the US, good luck on their social welfare. Or worse, you really don't want to fall ill over there

EDIT: Oh, and your tax doesn't pay for 6 people on the dole. It pays for the roads you use, the hospitals you attend and the education your children receive

Thats a bit of a sheltered view of the US you have there. You probably know all
you know about living in the US form what you saw in Michael Moore documentaries. Next you'll be telling me i'll get shot if I go to the cinema over there. :rolleyes:

monkeypants

Dole = €188 each week, multiplying that by 52 weeks equals €9,776.

The dole for six people is €58,656.

If the combined PAYE burden for yourself and your missus comes to €58,656, you're doing okay and you should stop whinging.

I'm probably taking a very simplistic view of this and missing a lot of nuance and detail, but I suspect that you're both still doing okay.

marienbad

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

I didnt say " + all the other things". I used it as a round figure. All of my taxes = x amount. X amount is equivalent to 6 peoples dole money.

So are you and your wife paying 60k in tax then ?

liammur

ResearchWill wrote: »

€400 a week on the dole wow I'm giving up work and there I thought it was less than €190.

Basic dole = €188
Full dole payment = €188 + ( about 101 other benefits which actually dwarf the basic dole payment).

28064212

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Thats a bit of a sheltered view of the US you have there. You probably know all
you know about living in the US form what you saw in Michael Moore documentaries. Next you'll be telling me i'll get shot if I go to the cinema over there. :rolleyes:

Really? You're really going to claim that the cost of healthcare isn't much higher and the level of social welfare isn't much lower in the US than here?

If you can't or won't respond to points, then don't, but don't resort to ad hominem attacks, you just look foolish

TheTurk1972

monkeypants wrote: »

Dole = €188 each week, multiplying that by 52 weeks equals €9,776.

The dole for six people is €58,656.

If the combined PAYE burden for yourself and your missus comes to €58,656, you're doing okay and you should stop whinging.

I'm probably taking a very simplistic view of this and missing a lot of nuance and detail, but I suspect that you're both still doing okay.

Yes we are doing OK. But for every extra euro we earn now over half is taken by the taxman. Now that hurts when you work hard to increase your income, only to see it lifted straight out of your pocket. And now they want to go in for more.

later12

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Yes we are doing OK. But for every extra euro we earn now over half is taken by the taxman. Now that hurts when you work hard to increase your income, only to see it lifted straight out of your pocket. And now they want to go in for more.

Hmm. Not sure this is a particularly credible thread. Here is a table of effective income tax rates using the latest Revenue statistics.



Farewell.

monkeypants

liammur wrote: »

Basic dole = €188
Full dole payment = €188 + ( about 101 other benefits which actually dwarf the basic dole payment).

Ah, so that's where I went wrong back in September '09; I asked for a JA form and I should have asked for a 'Full Dole' form instead. Heaven forbid I end up unemployed again, but if I do, I'll be more careful. That was an expensive mistake to make. My pre-paid payment actually went down from €204 to €196. Luckily I was back in work before it dropped again.

liammur

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Yes we are doing OK. But for every extra euro we earn now over half is taken by the taxman. Now that hurts when you work hard to increase your income, only to see it lifted straight out of your pocket. And now they want to go in for more.

I'm not sure they want to, more like they have to.

Expect another 10 years of austerity. For every 1 year of budget giveaways, it takes 3 to undo it. We had a lot of them under FF, Greece is in a very similar situation.

The US will face their own fiscal cliff on 31.12.12. You can expect a cycle of austerity to begin there in the new year.

TheTurk1972

28064212 wrote: »

Really? You're really going to claim that the cost of healthcare isn't much higher and the level of social welfare isn't much lower in the US than here?

If you can't or won't respond to points, then don't, but don't resort to ad hominem attacks, you just look foolish

Medical insurance is about the same as it is here. And any good employer will pay it for you. And yes i've been sick in the US and no it didnt cost me anything.
Social welfare I dont really care about. I havent been on the dole since the 80's. And if I did need social welfare and its higher in Ireland at the time then I'll just come home to Ireland.

ResearchWill

Just did some quick calculations a married couple single income 120k a year in US New York take home would be $7384.00 while in Ireland it would be €5885.00. While I kept the figure the same of cours currency is different.

The question the OP has to ask is the difference work it for them. Having children will effect the decision. But deciding where to live is not all down to taxes many in Northern Europe will pay much higher taxes as they believe it's worth it.

zielarz

I agree with the OP, the worst crime you can commit in this country is the crime of making money. Current 52% marginal rate is ridiculously high and it's just a disincentive to work. For some reason society believes this is fair.
I wish you good luck. The only think I'd consider is the higher cost of healthcare in US.

PucaMama

liammur wrote: »

Basic dole = €188
Full dole payment = €188 + ( about 101 other benefits which actually dwarf the basic dole payment).

:rolleyes:proof?

ResearchWill

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Medical insurance is about the same as it is here. And any good employer will pay it for you. And yes i've been sick in the US and no it didnt cost me anything.
Social welfare I dont really care about. I havent been on the dole since the 80's. And if I did need social welfare and its higher in Ireland at the time then I'll just come home to Ireland.

A number of years ago Ireland introduced the Habituial Residency test in social welfare, so if you doreturn for SW you more than likely wont get it.

Health insurance is not the same as here "According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, private employers provide health insurance coverage for just over half of U.S. residents. The annual Employer Health Benefits Survey conducted by the Kaiser Family Foundation estimated an average annual cost of $13,770 for family health insurance."

http://www.ehow.com/info_8743121_average-cost-insurance-married-couple.html

If your employer dies not pay a huge hunk of your tax saving is gone there.

A good family policy here is between 1k and 3k .

PucaMama

later12 wrote: »

Hmm. Not sure this is a particularly credible thread. Here is a table of effective income tax rates using the latest Revenue statistics.



Farewell.

is that true? look at the difference in tax on 30,000 between married and single :eek:

TheTurk1972

ResearchWill wrote: »

Just did some quick calculations a married couple single income 120k a year in US New York take home would be $7384.00 while in Ireland it would be €5885.00. While I kept the figure the same of cours currency is different.

The question the OP has to ask is the difference work it for them. Having children will effect the decision. But deciding where to live is not all down to taxes many in Northern Europe will pay much higher taxes as they believe it's worth it.

You should look up the deductibles allowed in the US. You might find that you arrive at a hugely different figure for take home then. The cost of living is also much lower than here.

The difference is big.

srsly78

PucaMama wrote: »

is that true? look at the difference in tax on 30,000 between married and single :eek:

The table is just showing income tax, and not showing usc+prsi deducation which are huge.

Kevwoody

So are u actually paying 60k a year in tax or not?

TheTurk1972

ResearchWill wrote: »

A number of years ago Ireland introduced the Habituial Residency test in social welfare, so if you doreturn for SWyou more than likely wont get it.

Funny my cousin came back from the states 3 months ago. Went down to the health center and now he's getting nearly €200 a week plus rent.

But anyway, I dont intend to be on the dole. If the day comes that I cant get a job, i'll figure something out. Like most of the world.

I think we need to arrive somewhere in between. In the US if you lose your job you are in trouble, over here and in Europe generally welfare is outrageously high, esp when children come into the mix.

Many married people with kids are nearly better off not working on the dole the they would be in employment or the difference is marginal, this should not be happening.

TheTurk1972

PucaMama wrote: »

is that true? look at the difference in tax on 30,000 between married and single :eek:

Better yet, look at the difference between the amount someone on 20k and someone on 100k pays in tax. And btw that chart doesnt tell the whole tax story either.

jhegarty

later12 wrote: »

Hmm. Not sure this is a particularly credible thread. Here is a table of effective income tax rates using the latest Revenue statistics.

Farewell.

+ prsi + usc

ResearchWill

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

You should look up the deductibles allowed in the US. You might find that you arrive at a hugely different figure for take home then. The cost of living is also much lower than here.

The difference is big.

I used for both tax websites, in neither did I allow any deductibles just to give an idea.

For US http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/netpay/us/alabama/calculator.html;jsessionid=C30BF84BD482625F3D7EDE6D58440C64

For Ireland http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2012.jsp

later12

PucaMama wrote: »

is that true? look at the difference in tax on 30,000 between married and single :eek:

Yeah, but most countries take cohabitation into consideration when apportioning income tax obligations; since you're married that ought not be a personal concern.

What I always find far more interesting about this table is the maximum effective rate, since the regularly cited marginal income tax rate can usually be so misleading.

edit; sorry, you're not the OP:o

monkeypants

srsly78 wrote: »

The table is just showing income tax, and not showing usc+prsi deducation which are huge.

Indeed. Probably because of this:

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

our combined income tax

liammur

jhegarty wrote: »

+ prsi + usc

There's no doubt people are paying crazy taxes in this country, and to say we are still running a huge deficit. It's unreal.

ResearchWill

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Funny my cousin came back from the states 3 months ago. Went down to the health center and now he's getting nearly €200 a week plus rent.

But anyway, I dont intend to be on the dole. If the day comes that I cant get a job, i'll figure something out. Like most of the world.

Funny I work as a barrister and come across refusals on the basis of Hr every day. You quote a cousin I quote http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html, could also if you wish put up the relevant Act.

TheTurk1972

ResearchWill wrote: »

I used for both tax websites, in neither did I allow any deductibles just to give an idea.

For US http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/netpay/us/alabama/calculator.html;jsessionid=C30BF84BD482625F3D7EDE6D58440C64

For Ireland http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2012.jsp

Deductibles are the difference.
I already have calculated the difference for me. Its significant. And its just getting more significant the higher taxes including stealth taxes get in Ireland.

TheTurk1972

ResearchWill wrote: »

Funny I work as a barrister and come across refusals on the basis of Hr every day. You quote a cousin I quote http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html, could also if you wish put up the relevant Act.

Well you better do more research then.
Go to a CWO and ask them what they do when someone is refused the dole and has no other means.

Anyway I really dont care whether I personally can get the dole or not for 6 months after arriving in Ireland. I'm pretty sure I could survive that long on savings if I was unfortunate enough not to be able to find work.

ResearchWill

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Deductibles are the difference.
I already have calculated the difference for me. Its significant. And its just getting more significant the higher taxes including stealth taxes get in Ireland.

Stealth taxes, have you taken stealth taxes into account in the US city and state sales tax, property tax, neighborhood taxes, local, town, county and state. If you have done the calvulations put up the difference. Have you check the cost of private education, college education.

ResearchWill

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Well you better do more research then.
Go to a CWO and ask them what they do when someone is refused the dole and has no other means.

Anyway I really dont care whether I personally can get the dole or not for 6 months after arriving in Ireland. I'm pretty sure I could survive that long on savings if I was unfortunate enough not to be able to find work.

You also need Habitual Residency for community welfare payments, I don't need to do the research I have been helping people with no income and refused all state help because they don't satisfy the HR rules.

The relevant section

246.—(1) For the purpose of each provision of this Act specified in subsection (3), it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown, that a person is not habitually resident in the State at the date of the making of the application concerned unless the person has been present in the State or any other part of the Common Travel Area for a continuous period of 2 years ending on that date.

[2004 (MP) s17 & Sch 1]
(2) In subsection (1) “other part of the Common Travel Area” means the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

[2004 (MP) s17 & Sch 1]
(3) The provisions of this Act referred to in subsection (1) are sections 141(9), 154(c), 163(3), 168(5), 173(6), 180, 192, 210(9) and 220(3).

Section 192 relates to supplementary welfare payments.

liammur

PucaMama wrote: »

:rolleyes:proof?

Doing your little bit of research is never any harm.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/call-for-welfare-pay-cap-as-couple-claim-90k-a-year-168808.html
Call for welfare pay cap as couple claim €90k a year

By Stephen Maguire
Tuesday, September 27, 2011
A SENATOR has urged that a cap on social welfare payments be introduced after it emerged a family of four is claiming over €90,000 a year.
The unemployed married couple, who take home €1,763 a week, have four children and live in Dublin. They are originally from Bosnia.

Labour Senator Jimmy Harte called for a cap on the amount of welfare payments a family can receive.

Mr Harte, who received the information from Department of Social Protection officials, said that €50,000 is more than enough for a family to survive on.

"It doesn’t matter if this family is from Bosnia or Ballymun — this is far too much. The family is doing nothing illegal, but the system is wrong when a couple are able to receive €90,000 per year for doing nothing.

"There are married couples out there with two good jobs, working very hard and are not receiving anything like this.

"As well as receiving €90,000, they will not have to pay property tax or water charges. That is just wrong," he said.

According to figures obtained by Mr Harte, the family receives the following weekly payments:

* Father’s disability allowance — €322.

* Guardian’s pension for child taken in — €286.

* Rent supplement — €276.

* Mother’s carer’s allowance — €380.

* Child benefit — €288.

* Daughter (17 years) special needs — €211.

later12

jhegarty wrote: »

+ prsi + usc

yes, would you like to expand on those points?

I can't think of anywhere that doesn't don't have social insurance or associated personal contributions. I would prefer to see a more detailed statistical breakdown of the effective contribution rate before commenting on Ireland's PRSI/ USC than simply their mention.

later12

liammur wrote: »

Doing your little bit of research is never any harm.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/call-for-welfare-pay-cap-as-couple-claim-90k-a-year-168808.html
Call for welfare pay cap as couple claim €90k a year

By Stephen Maguire
Tuesday, September 27, 2011
A SENATOR has urged that a cap on social welfare payments be introduced after it emerged a family of four is claiming over €90,000 a year.
The unemployed married couple, who take home €1,763 a week, have four children and live in Dublin. They are originally from Bosnia.

Labour Senator Jimmy Harte called for a cap on the amount of welfare payments a family can receive.

Mr Harte, who received the information from Department of Social Protection officials, said that €50,000 is more than enough for a family to survive on.

"It doesn’t matter if this family is from Bosnia or Ballymun — this is far too much. The family is doing nothing illegal, but the system is wrong when a couple are able to receive €90,000 per year for doing nothing.

"There are married couples out there with two good jobs, working very hard and are not receiving anything like this.

"As well as receiving €90,000, they will not have to pay property tax or water charges. That is just wrong," he said.

According to figures obtained by Mr Harte, the family receives the following weekly payments:

* Father’s disability allowance — €322.

* Guardian’s pension for child taken in — €286.

* Rent supplement — €276.

* Mother’s carer’s allowance — €380.

* Child benefit — €288.

* Daughter (17 years) special needs — €211.

In fairness, there is an unusual concurrence of unusual payments in that example; most families wouldn't have individuals eligible for both parental & offspring disability allowances at the same time, and when the mother (presumably?) is the householder left in charge, it's not surprising that support services kick in, in a way which they otherwise would not.

Terrible example.

liammur

later12 wrote: »

In fairness, there is an unusual concurrence of unusual payments in that example; most families wouldn't have individuals eligible for both parental & offspring disability allowances at the same time, and when the mother (presumably?) is the householder left in charge, it's not surprising that support services kick in, in a way which they otherwise would not.

Terrible example.

It shows the range of benefits that exist. Almost everyone knows exploitation is going on. That is an extreme case. But, I said €188 constitutes basic payment. Full dole is far in excess of this. The Troika are putting big pressure on the Govt as we speak to reform welfare.

dahamsta

Kevwoody wrote: »

So are u actually paying 60k a year in tax or not?

Still avoiding this question I see OP.

later12

liammur wrote: »

It shows the range of benefits that exist. Almost everyone knows exploitation is going on. That is an extreme case. But, I said €188 constitutes basic payment. Full dole is far in excess of this. The Troika are putting big pressure on the Govt as we speak to reform welfare.

Disability benefits are not what would commonly be referred to as "the dole" though.

Far better to look at what this family could be earning if all employed in work; the difficulty with disability benefit is that these people cannot all enter the labour force, and often require full time care; again, you are providing a ridiculously bad example.

Duiske

liammur wrote: »

Basic dole = €188
Full dole payment = €188 + ( about 101 other benefits which actually dwarf the basic dole payment).

Can you name the 101 other benefits ? Just give us the 1st 10 you can think of, that will do for a start.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

There is a lot of hyperbole and unnecessary snark on this thread, and a lot of posts have been deleted. If your sole contribution is a dig at another poster, an unsubstantiated claim about the welfare system, or :roll eyes: then think twice before hitting "submit".

avalon68

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Thats a bit of a sheltered view of the US you have there. You probably know all
you know about living in the US form what you saw in Michael Moore documentaries. Next you'll be telling me i'll get shot if I go to the cinema over there. :rolleyes:

Not really - Ive lived in a couple of states here in the US - Ive paid :city tax, state tax,federal tax, property tax (astronomical!!!), view tax (yes, seriously....a tax for having a view!), car tax, a contribution to my health insurance (minimal, but if i lost my job I would have to come up with almost 1000 usd a month, and thats just for me....no kids). If I needed a dentist it would be cheaper to fly back to Ireland, went to the optician a few weeks ago - $140 dollars just for the exam. So all in all, its not that cheap/tax free to live here, in my opinion anyway.