Property Tax

karlitob

Hi

Thoughts would be welcome.

I read about a new value-based property tax today in the Times. I don't want to seem too naive but why should I pay a tax to live in my own home - I work, I pay a mortgage, I paid stamp duty - really what more do they want. If I can't pay am I evicted. If I am unemployed, min wage, pensioner - what happens? And please no 'but they do it in Europe' lines. It just doesn't seem morally right to put a tax on someones home. Why would I bother buying a house if I have to pay a tax on top of a stamp duty and a mortgage and bin charges and water charges and high electricity and gas prices. I totally believe that you should pay for what you use but surely there is a ceiling on all this. I can't see how we're gonna pay for this.

Also my salary is standardised across the state. I get paid the same to live in Dublin as does my colleague in the middle of rural Cork. How is it fair that we are do not pay the same on our home. I feel that because of the lack of jobs and the centralisation of the country that I must work in Dublin. For that I am penalised. Should there be a dublin weighting?

Thanks

sweeney1971

When we lived in England we had to pay £1,300 pounds a year, on a two bedroomed house, we never had our bins empited even though we should have had and when we had the last two bad winters they did not even clear the roads, but we got a bill every year and it was listed what the money was spent on ie Emergency Services, Bin's, Hospital A&E etc.
Over here your paying for something that you do not know what it is being spent on. I thought the UK was corrupt but over here they are open about corruption and people accept it.
We are all better off on the Dole.

Mr. Loverman

Earn money? **** you, pay me.
Spend money? **** you, pay me.
Own a home? **** you, pay me.

I live in China where the mafia element is even more obvious.

karlitob

sweeney1971 wrote: »

When we lived in England we had to pay £1,300 pounds a year, on a two bedroomed house, we never had our bins empited even though we should have had and when we had the last two bad winters they did not even clear the roads, but we got a bill every year and it was listed what the money was spent on ie Emergency Services, Bin's, Hospital A&E etc.
Over here your paying for something that you do not know what it is being spent on. I thought the UK was corrupt but over here they are open about corruption and people accept it.
We are all better off on the Dole.

Its hard not to agree with you buddy.

Victor

We haven't been paying enough tax. For the last 15 years, we have been living off one-time taxes from the boom.

karlitob wrote: »

really what more do they want.

They need enough to balance the budget and pay off some of the debt.

The_Conductor

Its still being floated- they haven't published the legislation yet.
Dublin owners will likely be penalised- yes, the exact same as when we last had property tax- as they don't want to base it on property size- as rural owners tend to have much larger homes than do Dublin owners.

As a sock to apartment dwellers- the current idea is to base it as a 'site related tax' with the prospect of a further tax coming down the road in 2017 (a habitation tax) related to living in a dwelling, as opposed to owning it- which is a tax that most countries have- a tax on ownership and a separate tax on dwelling.

Our books don't balance. Even after all the tax hikes so far, and service cuts- we're still spending between 8 and 9 billion more per annum than we're taking in. We need to get this down to a sustainable level (which will entail more pain and hardship for everyone- no matter how its couched).

I don't like paying tax anymore than anyone else. Its not optional though.

The basis of any tax regime is that it has to equitable- it should not discriminate against any particular class of citizen. If you believe this basic tenet is not being followed- complain. Whether your complaint results in a change to proposals- will probably be measured by how many people complain, and how vociferously. In Ireland- its the people who shout loudest who get what they want. Sad, but true.

Henry Ford III

This will really hurt some people. It'll also depress the property market possibly.

From Breaking News.....

GOVERNMENT plans to introduce a "value-based" property tax have been attacked by leading figures across the political and economic spectrum, who warn of a looming "fiasco" that will penalise Dublin homeowners hardest.

Under the plan, the new property tax regime would see the owner of an average four bed semi-detached house in Dublin paying €897 a year while the owner of an equivalent house in the midlands would pay just €375.......

drunkmonkey

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Under the plan, the new property tax regime would see the owner of an average four bed semi-detached house in Dublin paying €897 a year while the owner of an equivalent house in the midlands would pay just €375.......

I think it should be a lot more on Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and any city property as their cost of living is a lot less, rural people have very little services besides running water and electricity. There cost of transport is huge in comparison, there's no hospitals, very little in the way of arts and culture, underfunded schools a lot propped up by their local community. Being conservative i'd estimate if someone in the country has to pay a €500 property/dwelling tax someone living in a city should be paying around €5000. Now that figure is way to high so I think €100 for the county people and €1000 for the city people (not in apartments) would be fair.

The_Conductor

Its actually opposite to what you're suggesting.
The cost of maintaining roads, water and other essential services, in rural areas is a multiple per head of population, what it costs to provide the same services in Dublin/Cork/Limerick etc. The cost of living on an individual basis, is however over 20% less for someone in a BMW county, than it is for a Dublin resident- and they're subsidised by Dublin dwellers. Its always been this way. There very much is a 'grass is greener' mentality here- the cost of living in Dublin is a lot more expensive than it is in rural areas- while the cost of providing essential services in rural areas is a multiple of times higher per head of population what it costs to provide similar services to a Dublin based person. Dublin does, and always has, supported the rest of the country. Its not an excuse to discriminate against them even more though- this tax- as any tax should be, should be seen to be equitable in nature. It isn't- and people are rightly complaining. Personally I think it should be based solely on the property size, and a distinction should be made between freehold and leasehold property- as leaseholders must also pay lease fees (and very often non-optional management fees). A blanket value based tax- is ridiculous.

TwoShedsJackson

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Now that figure is way to high so I think €100 for the county people and €1000 for the city people (not in apartments) would be fair.

Let me guess, you live in the country?? The cost of living in a city is far higher than living in the sticks.

drunkmonkey

smccarrick wrote: »

Its actually opposite to what you're suggesting.

I get what your saying and that's correct if there are the services, what i'm saying is there is no services. My transport bill if I had a usable transport service for example a bus or train service would be about €500 less per month. There is no way for me to get to point at to b besides that car. My horse or bicycle are not allowed on the motorway yet it the only safe route.

drunkmonkey

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Let me guess, you live in the country?? The cost of living in a city is far higher than living in the sticks.

worse i'm stuck between both, live in both mainly in the country but a good chuck of it in the city. Services are way better in the city, I would expect to pay a premium for it. I don't want any property tax as i'm going to have to make a contribution for the city and country house. It would be much fairer to have a dwelling tax, then I could just claim i'm in the county side the whole time.

someuser905

dublin paying for the culchies as usual :rolleyes:

The_Conductor

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I get what your saying and that's correct if there are the services, what i'm saying is there is no services. My transport bill if I had a usable transport service for example a bus or train service would be about €500 less per month. There is no way for me to get to point at to b besides that car. My horse or bicycle are not allowed on the motorway yet it the only safe route.

Contrary to what you imagine- its actually no different in large swathes of Dublin- even in busy little villages- there may be no public transport, or it may be of such a limited nature to be useless to most of the inhabitants. Poor public transport is not just a rural issue- and most people who live in Dublin are not on the Luas and/or DART lines- though doubtless those who are, avail of them.

The fact of the matter is- and its well documented- the cost of living for a person if far higher in urban areas, than it is in rural areas. Yet- urban areas provide massive subsidisation towards the provision of services in rural areas- which I'm not saying is right or wrong, simply its the way we do things.

Also- septic tanks are not solely a rural issue- there are thousands of them in Co. Dublin, Kildare, Meath etc- the commuter belt for our capital city- its by no means a rural tax either.

The current proposal is discriminatory in nature- as it taxes people availing of the same good or service in a different manner depending on where they live. There is no cognisance of mortgages and or equity in the properties (if you check- the equity associated with rural houses is actually significantly higher in Co. Galway than it is in Co. Dublin- yet we don't have a suggestion to say- your bank owns more of your home than someone somewhere else in the country- therefore you pay less tax)........

No matter how we structure this- people are going to wail and moan. However if it is seen as being equally onerous on everyone- at least we're not pointing fingers at one another. The habitation tax is going to be a different matter- as its going to hit people who are renting as well, alongside owners- however thats not coming for another 5 years.

Henry Ford III

smccarrick wrote: »

...No matter how we structure this- people are going to wail and moan...

Seldom truer words are written.

It's a revenue excercise, and has little to do with actual services per se, and more to do with paying off our European overlords.

To close the budget deficit will require some really tough calls I reckon - public service payneeds massive reduction, waste in the public services has to be eliminated, and social welfare costs have to fall.

None of these will be easy, nor pleasant.

TheTurk1972

If its about services provided, then its not per house that this property tax should be paid. Its per person living in it. Whether they own the house or not. Otherwise it is discrimination against property owners.
Think Council tax.

sarkozy

The Government has already said more user fees are going to be introduced. Regardless of a property tax, we will be paying more for services, which is arguably fair if it acts as an incentive for people to use and councils to provide services and infrastructure more efficiently. However, this is also not (1) a stable income stream [necessary for planning and consistency of provision, or (2) progressive because the poorer will pay more as a proportion of income than the better off [the same argument against VAT increases].

There are no easy answers here. But a proposal from government that is genuinely fair and equitable, for clear, rational, convincing reasons, with all other options put to us and reasoned, will at least be palatable.

karlitob

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think it should be a lot more on Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and any city property as their cost of living is a lot less, rural people have very little services besides running water and electricity. There cost of transport is huge in comparison, there's no hospitals, very little in the way of arts and culture, underfunded schools a lot propped up by their local community. Being conservative i'd estimate if someone in the country has to pay a €500 property/dwelling tax someone living in a city should be paying around €5000. Now that figure is way to high so I think €100 for the county people and €1000 for the city people (not in apartments) would be fair.

I presume you're a troll.

If my mortgage (and now property tax) is higher than in rural areas how is my cost of living less. A car costs the same to run - motor tax, petrol, NCT - I'm stuck in traffic longer than you take to travel somewhere. So the cost of transport is not huge in comparison

Little services...here we go again, you have the same services as me but they're further away. You cannot have a hospital on your front door. Underfunded schools my backside - have you had a look at inner city Dublin, Limerick, Cork recently - they would argue that they are the underfunded ones.

Very little in the way of art and culture - sure aren't we told from the rooftops how rural Ireland is the last bastion of irish music, irish culture, irish language, irish sport (GAA) - a ridiculous comment.

E100 for the country and E1000 for city - hilarious.

karlitob

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

If its about services provided, then its not per house that this property tax should be paid. Its per person living in it. Whether they own the house or not. Otherwise it is discrimination against property owners.
Think Council tax.

Fair point but does that then mean that higher dwelling areas - ie cities will have better services. If there's more people then more money. Or should there be a basic level of service regardless of where you love from the local government.

Do we expect mongahan county council to provide the same level of service as dun laoghaire rathdown

christmas2012

the property tax in ireland has no merit if they have fully introduced the property tax and fully implemented it with every person in ireland,the least they can do is scale back the PRSI tax related income levy as thats where they source their monies for particulars..

karlitob

Victor wrote: »

We haven't been paying enough tax. For the last 15 years, we have been living off one-time taxes from the boom.They need enough to balance the budget and pay off some of the debt.

I have no problems cutting services to the income that we have. If our intake is 2003 levels then provide services from 2003. I didnt pay a property tax then, I am happy to pay for water and refuse services now.

But i understand your point about sustainable taxes.

karlitob

smccarrick wrote: »

The basis of any tax regime is that it has to equitable- it should not discriminate against any particular class of citizen. If you believe this basic tenet is not being followed- complain. Whether your complaint results in a change to proposals- will probably be measured by how many people complain, and how vociferously. In Ireland- its the people who shout loudest who get what they want. Sad, but true.

This doesn't carry through for the household charge.

EricPraline

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think it should be a lot more on Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and any city property as their cost of living is a lot less, rural people have very little services besides running water and electricity. There cost of transport is huge in comparison, there's no hospitals, very little in the way of arts and culture, underfunded schools a lot propped up by their local community. Being conservative i'd estimate if someone in the country has to pay a €500 property/dwelling tax someone living in a city should be paying around €5000. Now that figure is way to high so I think €100 for the county people and €1000 for the city people (not in apartments) would be fair.

Which is precisely why the cost of property in urban areas is so much higher than in rural areas of Ireland: according to Daft's Q1 2012 report, the average 4 bed in South County Dublin cost €548,000, while the average 4 bed in Leitrim cost €181,000. The cost of services, amenities, schools and so on are clearly factored in to the asking price. You're essentially asking urban dwellers to pay twice over.

Bullseye1

someuser905 wrote: »

dublin paying for the culchies as usual :rolleyes:

In fairness you have better amenities including luas, dart and better restaurants and pub.

The_Conductor

karlitob wrote: »

This doesn't carry through for the household charge.

The household charge was/is a one off- to be replaced by the property tax. It was a stop-gap measure. No- it wasn't equitable, don't think anyone suggested it was? So- do we want a flatrate charge akin to the charge? If so- at what level deos it need to be set to raise the 500-600 million they are suggesting the property tax needs to raise?

Stage 1 was the household charge. Stage 2 is the property tax. Stage 3 the residential charge.......... ?

karlitob

smccarrick wrote: »

No matter how we structure this- people are going to wail and moan. However if it is seen as being equally onerous on everyone- at least we're not pointing fingers at one another.

I guess my original point was not taxation or even sustainable taxation.

Its the morality thats associated with introducing a property tax.

Every man's house is his castle. I work, I earn a buck, I pay tax on everything I use and consume. I have a mortgage, I pay a large interest rate to the bank (And don't start comparing to 1980 - mortgages where at a more sustainable level then despite what houses cost today). My dwelling is inviolable. I can't understand nor believe that I must be a levy on owning my own home. I can't fathom it.

I understand taxation for the local services and national services. But to be taxed because I broke my hump to get the best that I could for my family and now to be penalised for it, for me, it just feels like the last straw.

As for provision of services, is their a contract in place between the householder and county council. Do I know the minimum level of service expected and is this the same for every county council. What influence do I have over this - voting for councillors? For example, Dun Laoghaire Rathdown are building another library - there are tonnes of them in DLRCOCO. Yet, one in Limerick City and one in Limerick County for example. Should there be a 1 library per 3000 person ratio for every citizen in the country?

Thanks for your thoughts

The_Conductor

Bullseye1 wrote: »

In fairness you have better amenities including luas, dart and better restaurants and pub.

Speak for yourself- I think some of the best restaurants in the country are in West Cork, and the best pubs and bars in Galway. Its very subjective. As for amenities- look at the hundreds of thousands of Dubliners trying to bring up children in apartments without access to gardens or safe outdoor playing areas? I certainly don't envy them....... As for travel- any idea how long it takes to get from Lucan to Swords using Dublin public transport- on a daily basis its just shy of 4 hours......... Sure- some folk may have great services- but others would be far better off almost anywhere else...........

karlitob

Bullseye1 wrote: »

In fairness you have better amenities including luas, dart and better restaurants and pub.

Are urban dwellers responsible for private companies setting up better restaurants. It is ridiculous to say that city pubs are better. Luas and dart are only good for who's near them of course but I accept your point.

In fairness, rural people have better fields, greenery, parks, landscape, air quality, sense of community (generally) - maybe we can start charging ye for that.

karlitob

smccarrick wrote: »

The household charge was/is a one off- to be replaced by the property tax. It was a stop-gap measure. No- it wasn't equitable, don't think anyone suggested it was? So- do we want a flatrate charge akin to the charge? If so- at what level deos it need to be set to raise the 500-600 million they are suggesting the property tax needs to raise?

Stage 1 was the household charge. Stage 2 is the property tax. Stage 3 the residential charge.......... ?

You made the point that those who shout loudest win and I guess I was responding the significant campaign against the household charge, and as you say, upcoming property tax and this, as we see, hasn't held true.

karlitob

EricPraline wrote: »

Which is precisely why the cost of property in urban areas is so much higher than in rural areas of Ireland: according to Daft's Q1 2012 report, the average 4 bed in South County Dublin cost €548,000, while the average 4 bed in Leitrim cost €181,000. The cost of services, amenities, schools and so on are clearly factored in to the asking price. You're essentially asking urban dwellers to pay twice over.

Excellent point

Bullseye1

karlitob wrote: »

Are urban dwellers responsible for private companies setting up better restaurants. It is ridiculous to say that city pubs are better. Luas and dart are only good for who's near them of course but I accept your point.

In fairness, rural people have better fields, greenery, parks, landscape, air quality, sense of community (generally) - maybe we can start charging ye for that.

Pub and restaurant points was a joke.