Property Tax

Cookie_Monster

EricPraline wrote: »

Some pleasant post can be expected in March...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0107/breaking30.html

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/revenue-to-decide-value-of-homes-for-property-tax-3343775.html

I would be curious to know how they will arrive at the values. A cynical person might assume that the valuations will be a little "optimistic", bringing in more revenue and also in an attempt to artificially prop up prices. Time will tell.

common sense I reckon, the revenue are one of the few aspects of the Irish state that works reasonably well. better than letting people do it themselves in which case everything will be massively undervalued

Gov do property values in NZ, seems to work well here. Gives a guideline for prices, is the basis for rates levels and is not binding so prop can sell well above or below value, gets redone every 3 or 5 years.

The_Conductor

If property sells for well above or well below the guided prices- surely this is an indication that the guide prices are wildly inaccurate? What happens when the property sells for well above or well below the guide- is there a rebate or a demand for further tax, to reflect the inaccuracy? In the UK there is a microindustry based on getting rebates for people on the wrong council tax bands- are we going down that road? We have the property price register- a blunt tool, but better than nothing, that might be used to give guideprices- but by that measure estate sales might massively deflate possible values- whereas other factors might conspire to put artificially high valuations on property (such as location, as an obvious example).

Personally I am still of the opinion that we need to differentiate between leasehold and freehold property, apartments and houses and the actual square footage of the property. Someone who has to pay Management Charges to a Management Company- to provide services that are provided gratis by councils elsewhere- should have a commensurate reduction in their property tax- whereas someone who makes a conscious lifestyle choice that has a cost associated with their property or where they live- should have a commensurate charge associated with this.

Basing the tax purely on valuations is bringing back the Dublin tax of the 60s/70s- value is a very blunt instrument though- the amenity value of a garden and a larger home- are not enumerated in this blunt tool.

gurramok

Assuming they won't use the property price register to estimate values for a particular street, will prospective buyers have access to the values Revenue come up with?

jmayo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

common sense I reckon, the revenue are one of the few aspects of the Irish state that works reasonably well. better than letting people do it themselves in which case everything will be massively undervalued

Gov do property values in NZ, seems to work well here. Gives a guideline for prices, is the basis for rates levels and is not binding so prop can sell well above or below value, gets redone every 3 or 5 years.

Ah for God's sake stop comparing us to NZ.
Just remember they only have one chamber in parliament, have half our public representatives and half our ministers.
They do things more realistically and due to their roots not in as slipshod a way as oursevles.
IMHO it is another prime example of the belief that Protestant countries were/are more fiscally conservative and hardworking.

gurramok wrote: »

Assuming they won't use the property price register to estimate values for a particular street, will prospective buyers have access to the values Revenue come up with?

While the property price register can be used to ascertain value of some homes/houses for the property tax.
It can't be used for others at all.

The property price registry give the sale values of properties (i.e. house, site, ancillary buildings, etc).
All that is being taxed is the actual house and not the entire site AFAIK.

So even though a house (house, site, garage, outhouses, garden, sheds) up the road went for 300,000 that does not mean your house is worth 300,000.
The house might only be worth 150,000.

How are they going to value actual houses ?
Have they actually set down the valuation parameters ?
Are they going to use things like sq footage, number of reception rooms/bedrooms/bathrooms, road frontage, age of house, window types,
insulation type, distance from urban areas, connection to public services, etc ?

monkeypants

smccarrick wrote: »

In the UK there is a microindustry based on getting rebates for people on the wrong council tax bands

Social Welfare opportunity for estate agents.

gurramok

jmayo wrote:

While the property price register can be used to ascertain value of some homes/houses for the property tax.
It can't be used for others at all.

What i'm saying is that as a buyer I can consult the register for a sales price of a particular street(lets call it street A) but if another street(street has had no sales from 2012 for example and Revenue has valued street B, would I as a buyer have public access to the values for street B?

hoopla87

i don't think we will have that access, no and its really not fair. we just have to wait till march i guess.
was just looking at the property prices in Sligo for last year and my street isnt on it. 2 other streets in my estate are but even they won't give an accurate reading for me. for 2 houses on same street (all 3 bed standard just so we know its nearly exactly the same house) the price payed for the second property at the end of the year was half of what the property at the start of the year sold at, i also know that there is a house for sale on that same street right now that's been up for sale for nearly 2 years now which recently dropped its asking price to only 15,000 as opposed to the 190,000 it was looking for when it first went on the market. this was approx 2 months ago and its STILL not selling. surely market value of a house should be what you could actually get for a house if you tried to sell it tomorrow? right now i estimate i couldn't sell my house at all! but they won't accept 1 euro as my valuation i bet.
i cant afford to pay the stupid-robbing-made-up 'tax' since i'm not working and was seriously considering selling my home since it seems i would be better off if i did. rent allowance paid for me and no made up property tax claiming to be needed for non-existant services (that i still have to pay for myself), its absolutely ridiculous that this is actually going ahead without being means tested.

billbond4

Just found out that Roscommon Co Co used the register of electors as a basis for sending out letters about the "Household Charge", naughty naughty.
So that would be a few thousand people who had their data rights infringed, wonder what fine will be imposed on them that that breach?

The_Conductor

billbond4 wrote: »

Just found out that Roscommon Co Co used the register of electors as a basis for sending out letters about the "Household Charge", naughty naughty.
So that would be a few thousand people who had their data rights infringed, wonder what fine will be imposed on them that that breach?

How do you make out that using the register of electors is a data breach? Its a publicly accessible register- anyone- you, me or Bob the Builder- can go and get extracts of the register for any purpose we see fit. It is not considered to be personal information, as defined under the Act. Its laziness, rather than naughtiness, using it as a basis for sending out letters for the Household Charge. Of far more interest- is the ESB Supply database being used by Revenue for determining habitable housing units...........

hoopla87

smccarrick wrote: »

Of far more interest- is the ESB Supply database being used by Revenue for determining habitable housing units...........[/QUOTE

seriously? thats the first i heard of that. that is interesting, sneaky sneaky

gurramok

The Electoral Register is accessible by the Councils, the Jury service and the TV licence inspectors. To say the govt uses it to trace dwellings for the Property tax is absurd as the Electoral Register is not a true representation of where a person lives and you actually need that person to be registered on the register itself! So if they use it, its a case of sheer stupidity!

Yes the ESB database is being used for data collection purposes, it was passed recently in the Finance Bill I believe.

The_Conductor

The electoral register is also available for anyone to view or copy extracts from, in any of the county libraries, and copies of the national registers are in the library in the Ilac centre. Its a great way to track people down. You can also get microfiches of historical registers- however you have to book them in advance.

Gearoil

My issue is the double taxation with building contributions and property tax.
Dunlaoighre Rathdown have recently increased their building contributions. So for renovations on a property 2000 sq feet your paying the council €23,400 then you have stamp duty of €4,995 and then annual tax of €995 which can be increased by council in three years by up to 25 PC, that's before you even attempt to begin work. The figures above are based on just one house on Myhome seeking €495,000 as an asking price.

RATM

smccarrick wrote: »

I wonder what mechanisms they'll put in place to dispute the prices? I mean- if they say my house is worth 200k- I'd bite the arm of anyone who offered me this for it....... I know if I went to sell the house, the most I'd get is maybe 120-130k- obviously this isn't going to be a good enough yardstick to dispute their valuation. Interesting times......

Knowing Revenue and also realising the size of the task that they have ahead of themselves in collecting this tax I would say that year 1 and 2 won't be all that strict. They've said themselves that it is a self assessment system and provided you do it in an honest way then that is good enough for them.

The next 12 months will all be about building the IT systems to handle collecting a tax from 1.6m households and chasing those who haven't paid. Once they get compliance rates above 95% and the system is running smoothly I'd imagine they will then do what they do with the self-employed and that it take a sample of 10% of them and audit them. In the same way Revenue will probably just pick 5 or 10% samples of the market and match their valuation vis a vis other houses sold off the property register. If they find a large level of under valuation within that 10% sample then they'll pursue the matter even further. Interest and penalties could be added.

The thing about Revenue is that even if you underpay for the first few years the chances are they'll have your cards marked within 5 years and you'll have to repay what you owe in any case. They're a slick machine and their IT systems are easily amongst the best of any government department.

billbond4

smccarrick wrote: »

The electoral register is also available for anyone to view or copy extracts from, in any of the county libraries, and copies of the national registers are in the library in the Ilac centre. Its a great way to track people down. You can also get microfiches of historical registers- however you have to book them in advance.

They are only to be used for statory purposes. And that doesn't include it to be used as property tax register according to the minister for environment. So it looks to me as the co co broke data protection laws amongst other things

StillWaters

billbond4 wrote: »

They are only to be used for statory purposes. And that doesn't include it to be used as property tax register according to the minister for environment. So it looks to me as the co co broke data protection laws amongst other things

No, it's a publicly available document eg political parties use it for canvassing purposes, it's use does not breach data protection legislation at all.

billbond4

StillWaters wrote: »

No, it's a publicly available document eg political parties use it for canvassing purposes, it's use does not breach data protection legislation at all.

Have a read of this. It makes things clearer.

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

The Electoral Register and direct marketing
Local authorities publish two versions of the Register of Electors: the full register and the edited register.
The Full Register lists everyone who is entitled to vote. Once a Full Register has been published, it can only be used for an electoral or other statutory purpose.
The Edited Register contains the names and addresses of those voters who have indicated that their details can be used for other purposes (for example, for direct marketing use by a commercial company or other organisation).
If you do not want your details to be included in the Edited Register, you should tick the "opt out" box. If you want your details to be included in the Edited Register, that is, you are happy that commercial companies and other organisations will contact you with direct marketing, you should leave the "opt out" box blank.
If you do not tick the "opt out" box, it is assumed that you want your details to be included in the Edited Register, if you do not wish your details to appear on the Edited Register tick the "opt out" box.
It is an offence for an organisation/commercial body to contact someone from the full electoral register for direct marketing purposes. This was set down in law under Section 32 of the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2001. Find out more about how to deal with unsolicited direct marketing material in Ireland.

aN.Droid

wossie wrote: »

I would advise everyone to take their money out of the various banks, building societys, credit unions etc. Buy a safe instead.
I know of a guy 62yo, lost his job, got job seekers for 9 months then was means tested........savings in the bank....entitled to nothing. Wife and two kids and no income. Happened to me in 2002, €200pw for 18 months, means tested, €75pw 'cause I got redundancy and money in the bank. Keep the minimum in the bank because you will lose in the long run. Any way it is only for the pensions, expenses etc. The less they have to play with the more careful they will be.

You can have up to 20 grand in savings before you are reduced... if you have that much you don't need any assistance.