Pro lifers giving out sweets to children on Shop street

Wompa1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZLVi4v7lSM

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

Catholics have nothing against gays per se

How very gracious of you.

Fuinseog wrote: »

but do not approve of unnatural sexual acts.

Ah, right, so you are just against consenting adults doing was comes naturally to *them*, and something that in no way impacts on your life?

Fuinseog wrote: »

the majority of Galwegians are Catholics in some form and what we have here is a secular minority aggressively imposing its will on the majority.

Sorry? What will are you talking about here? Last time I checked, the majority of people polled were in favour of same-sex marriage (73% in fact), so on this topic you are well wide of the mark. But maybe you are talking about some other issue, if so, please feel free to elaborate.

Also, while the majority of Galwegians are indeed Catholic, I would suggest that a large proportion are so by default, rather than choice. Seeing as you appear to be such an authority on the subject, what proportion of the population are practicing catholics?

Fuinseog wrote: »

strangely enough I was never sexually abused and never even met a paedo priest, although they are all supposed to be that way inclined.

Well now that you brought it up, I don't ever remember anyone (at least anyone sensible) saying that all priests were paedophiles, however I think it would be hard even for you to argue that there wasn't institutional self-preservation, where the church covered up the numerous incidents for the sake of itself, rather than doing the right thing in protecting vulnerable children. And you have the balls to imply that morality exclusively for the religious?

wp_rathead

Fuinseog wrote: »

I grew up in Galway and if you were an atheist you considered the odd one out. many of these people now have chips on their shoulders. Ireland was until recently a catholic country and they try to portray their ireland as some kind of gulag.

I know people in pray groups in Galway and they are lovely people. they seem to have values and morals and believe in something. they have a conception of what id right and wrong. they are subject to ridicule cos they are not promiscuous and do not drink until they vomit.

and athiests don't?

Night Falls

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

I'm not religious (and therefore I have no pro-catholic church sympathies) but your'e exaggerating. I cannot recall one instance in my life living and growing up in Ireland (I'm 30) that I had any religious group "impose" their ideas on me.

Divorce.
The criminalisation of homosexuality.
Not being able to buy condoms.
Good Friday / Christmas Day / sunday morning restrictions on alcohol (a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things, but in principle it shows the power the church once had on the country.

Just to name a few things that were / are influenced by the church, and happened in my lifetime (i'm roughly the same age as you).

Mrs OBumble

Night Falls wrote: »

There's a certain irony in a follower of a religion that would have sections of the population treated as second-class citizens based on their sexual orientation

Links to official documents, please? (Not the rants of individuals who are speaking on their own behalf.)

Every official document that I've seen says that even if a person's sexuality is "intrinsically disordered" they should be treated with dignity as respect.

(fwiw, I think there are problems with Catholic teaching in this area, and it's lack of understanding of the science in this area - but it's not guilty as charged.)


Back on topic, I'm no fan of the anti-choice campaigners - but they have a right to be there and have their say, just like the rest of us. Their pictures ain't pretty - but neither is real life. And handing out sweets to kids isn't a crime.

IMHO laws are irrelevant here: they don't force a woman to have an abortion (unless they're Chinese-style) - but they don't stop women inducing abortions either. And they make life considerably less-safe for the women who do so.

Night Falls

wprathead wrote: »

and athiests don't?

Fuinseog has been trying to subtly hint at that throughout the thread.

Also, Fuinseog, do you happen to strictly follow the bible, or do you take a bit of an a la carte view to it? Have you ever worked on a Sunday, for instance?

Fuinseog

Night Falls wrote: »

Fuinseog has been trying to subtly hint at that throughout the thread.

Also, Fuinseog, do you happen to strictly follow the bible, or do you take a bit of an a la carte view to it? Have you ever worked on a Sunday, for instance?

I try to avoid working Sundays if I can. I do not need to work seven days a week. Six is enough. On my free day I have better things to do than go shopping.
the secular minority demand respect yet have no tolerance for anyone who is religious.

Night Falls

JustMary wrote: »

Links to official documents, please? (Not the rants of individuals who are speaking on their own behalf.)

Every official document that I've seen says that even if a person's sexuality is "intrinsically disordered" they should be treated with dignity as respect.

Dignity and respect, possibly, just not on an equal footing to their heterosexual counterparts. Why does the church oppose same sex marriage otherwise?

Fuinseog

Night Falls wrote: »

Divorce.
The criminalisation of homosexuality.
Not being able to buy condoms.
Good Friday / Christmas Day / sunday morning restrictions on alcohol (a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things, but in principle it shows the power the church once had on the country.

Just to name a few things that were / are influenced by the church, and happened in my lifetime (i'm roughly the same age as you).

Germany is not a religious country yet shops do not open Sundays.
having two days without alcohol in this country is unbearable. whining about this just shows how central booze is to our lives.

homosexual were indeed crimminalised but I wonder how strictly the law was adhered to. Emmet Stagg met his young men in the Park and there was no moral outrage. I cannot remember the guards raiding blackrock after dark. indeed we had an openly gay presidental candidate who seemed to be an advocate of paedophila.

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

the secular minority demand respect yet have no tolerance for anyone who is religious.

You can keep repeating this all you like, but it won't make it any more true. I'm not sure many people have a problem with people having faith (barring the likes of Dawkins etc. who I personally find overly antagonistic). The issue arises when this faith directly impacts on others, such as with gay marriage. What right have you, I, or anyone else to say to a couple in a very happy, stable and loving relationship that they are not entitled to the same rights as a heterosexual couple?

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

having two days without alcohol in this country is unbearable. whining about this just shows how central booze is to our lives.

Whining? Really?

And again, any response to the 73% who support gay marriage? How in that sense is this secular minority imposing its will on the general public?

Fuinseog

Night Falls wrote: »

Dignity and respect, possibly, just not on an equal footing to their heterosexual counterparts. Why does the church oppose same sex marriage otherwise?

perhaps because its wrong and against the laws of nature. gay marriage is a parody of the christian marriage. other religions probably do not embrace such events.
But these arguments that are more appropriate on other forums.

returning to the topic were these Catholics aggressive and in your face? how would they compare to chuggers?

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

twas in the eighties in Dublin I believe. some dude claimed to have been given drugged ice cream and woke up to find himself on an island where they had a house. they kept him captive for three days until he managed to escape. widespread condemnation of the cult followed. it later turned out the whole thing had been made up.

Exactly.
It wasn't obvious from your post that you knew it was blatantly untrue

Yer man probably went on a mad bender. Bet loads of people wish they had a cult drugging to blame for a mad lost weekend !

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

perhaps because its wrong and against the laws of nature. gay marriage is a parody of the christian marriage. other religions probably do not embrace such events.

It would appear that the homophobic minority are trying to impose their will on the majority here.

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

Catholics have nothing against gays per se but do not approve of unnatural sexual acts. every religion has its beliefs. the majority of Galwegians are Catholics in some form and what we have here is a secular minority aggressively imposing its will on the majority.
the days of Bishop Browne are over and rightly so I would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I grew up in a Galway where the church supported a lot of youth clubs that I benefited from .strangely enough I was never sexually abused and never even met a paedo priest, although they are all supposed to be that way inclined.

This is the issue lots of people have with the Catholic Church's terminology. These 'unnatural' acts occur within nature in many places, therefore the phraseology is redundant. Lots of stuff is mistranslated from the bible, which itself, has a multitude of authors who are only then 'interpreting' the word of God (if that's your belief system). Thankfully a lot of Irish people, reared Catholic and non-Catholic, are now separating spirituality from dogma and making conscience-based decisions.

Fuinseog

inisboffin wrote: »

Exactly.
It wasn't obvious from your post that you knew it was blatantly untrue

Yer man probably went on a mad bender. Bet loads of people wish they had a cult drugging to blame for a mad lost weekend !

I came across it in GUBU nation.

Links234

Fuinseog wrote: »

gay marriage is a parody of the christian marriage.

What exactly is "christian marriage"? This is a ridiculous point, as if marriage were solely a christian concept. Are non-christians not allowed to avail of this right? No? There's no such thing as "christian marriage", there is just marriage, which is a social and legal institution. You can have whatever religiously flavoured ceremony you want, but it's in no sense a christian institution.

Fuinseog

Night Falls wrote: »

It would appear that the homophobic minority are trying to impose their will on the majority here.

the good old homophobic clout.

people will say yes to gay marriage cos they are afraid of being labelled homophobic. just like folks are afraid to say anything bad about Nigerians.
I understood the term was 'civil partnership' so legally they have the same rights as a regular married couple.

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

the good old homophobic clout.

If the cap fits.

Fuinseog wrote: »

I understood the term was 'civil partnership' so legally they have the same rights as a regular married couple.

Most, but not all.

Links234

Fuinseog wrote: »

I understood the term was 'civil partnership' so legally they have the same rights as a regular married couple.

No, civil partnership isn't the same and does not have the same rights as marriage.

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

Germany is not a religious country yet shops do not open Sundays.
having two days without alcohol in this country is unbearable. whining about this just shows how central booze is to our lives.

homosexual were indeed crimminalised but I wonder how strictly the law was adhered to. Emmet Stagg met his young men in the Park and there was no moral outrage. I cannot remember the guards raiding blackrock after dark. indeed we had an openly gay presidental candidate who seemed to be an advocate of paedophila.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Do you mean one religion does not dominate the political workings of Germany. I've German friends and relatives, and I'd say there are plenty of (excuse the pun) uber religious people in Germany. A lot of opening/closing laws are old in many European countries, and can date back to different time periods.

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

people will say yes to gay marriage cos they are afraid of being labelled homophobic.

Just how arrogant does someone have to be to assume that when it's proven that the majority support something they oppose, they believe it's only because the majority were bullied into supporting it?

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

people will say yes to gay marriage cos they are afraid of being labelled homophobic. just like folks are afraid to say anything bad about Nigerians.

LOL!

What will the neighbours say!!

Dear lord! Who are these 'folks' that live such fearful and narrow lives?

Fuinseog

inisboffin wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Do you mean one religion does not dominate the political workings of Germany. I've German friends and relatives, and I'd say there are plenty of (excuse the pun) uber religious people in Germany. A lot of opening/closing laws are old in many European countries, and can date back to different time periods.

if you wanted shops to be closed on Sunday here you would be quickly labelled a religious zealot. i know plenty of galwegians who have to work late saturday night and early sunday morning.

I do not think it would be a bad thing to have the shops closed one day a week. spend time with the family or relax without shopping.

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

if you wanted shops to be closed on Sunday here you would be quickly labelled a religious zealot. i know plenty of galwegians who have to work late saturday night and early sunday morning.

I do not think it would be a bad thing to have the shops closed one day a week. spend time with the family or relax without shopping.

Again, they are old laws. I think in UK there are similar things, and in fact there used to be here too? Possibly old English law? Strange restrictions too like you could sell fruit but not furniture, shoes but not clothes (not exact examples, but that kind of thing). Anyway if hospitals, telly, police, restaurants closed there'd be uproar. I think you can buy certain things in Germany on Sunday, certain breads and not others etc?

Fuinseog

inisboffin wrote: »

LOL!

What will the neighbours say!!

Dear lord! Who are these 'folks' that live such fearful and narrow lives?

in some quarters Galway is viewed as being cosmopolitan but under this thin veneer its a small Irish city with traditional values.

some guys view abortion as murder while its advocates would prefer a cleaner more acceptable image of it.

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

if you wanted shops to be closed on Sunday here you would be quickly labelled a religious zealot. i know plenty of galwegians who have to work late saturday night and early sunday morning.

I do not think it would be a bad thing to have the shops closed one day a week. spend time with the family or relax without shopping.

There would be certain benefits to it, but I think people would have a problem if it was done on purely religious grounds, and rightly so. If that was the case, it would be someone's will being imposed on others who may not share their religious views. And again I'll ask (before you start rambling about the majority being religious), how many practicing catholics are there in the country?

Fuinseog

inisboffin wrote: »

Again, they are old laws. I think in UK there are similar things, and in fact there used to be here too? Possibly old English law? Strange restrictions too like you could sell fruit but not furniture, shoes but not clothes (not exact examples, but that kind of thing). Anyway if hospitals, telly, police, restaurants closed there'd be uproar. I think you can buy certain things in Germany on Sunday, certain breads and not others etc?

emergency services are of course different. I just find it odd the way people grocery shop as if famine is approaching and fisticuffs ensue in the run up to christmas or Winterfest as women fight for the last ham. its gas that a christian festival is celebrated by all

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

in some quarters Galway is viewed as being cosmopolitan but under this thin veneer its a small Irish city with traditional values.

If it did there wouldn't be as many young pregnancies! If it did have such traditional values there'd be NO sex before marriage!
It's not just the blow-ins going to pubs nightclubs looking for a per-marital shag you know, these are Irish people who don't, for the majority hold those 'traditional values any more!:p

Fuinseog

Night Falls wrote: »

There would be certain benefits to it, but I think people would have a problem if it was done on purely religious grounds, and rightly so. If that was the case, it would be someone's will being imposed on others who may not share their religious views. And again I'll ask (before you start rambling about the majority being religious), how many practicing catholics are there in the country?

as another poster pointed out sunday closing is normal in other countries that would not be overly religious.

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

its gas that a christian festival is celebrated by all

We've no problem all going out on a pagan one (Samhain/Halloween) either.
And don't get me started on the origins of the 'Easter' egg, melted chocolate has nothing to do with Jesus resurrecting.
Christmas is lovely as a time of reflection, if that's your belief system. Particularly if others are treating it as a time to see family etc, then your work may be more likely to accommodate. unfortunately it's become way more about 'stuff' - just like everything else.

galwaycyclist

Fuinseog wrote: »

. its gas that a christian festival is celebrated by all

Why? Its not as if it was the christians who invented it. They merely co-opted existing "pagan" festivals.

Night Falls

Fuinseog wrote: »

as another poster pointed out sunday closing is normal in other countries that would not be overly religious.

And as I said, Sunday closing would probably have some benefits (although how many these days are reliant on sunday work to pay the bills?). However, if the decision was made based on religious dogma, I would oppose it, vehemently.

inisboffin

Fuinseog wrote: »

as another poster pointed out sunday closing is normal in other countries that would not be overly religious.

If you're talking about my post, I still have no idea about what you mean by 'overly religious'
Do you mean ruled by religious leaders?

Sponge Bob

inisboffin wrote: »

If you're talking about my post, I still have no idea about what you mean by 'overly religious'

Somebody who 'believes' in bicycles perhaps. :cool:

galwaycyclist

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Somebody who 'believes' in bicycles perhaps. :cool:

Ah Bob you may scoff at the moment. But some day, when you really need them, the bicycles will be there for you aswell.

Now isnt that a nice reassuring thought to end the day on?

Sponge Bob

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Ah Bob you may scoff at the moment. But some day, when you really need them, the bicycles will be there for you aswell.

Not on a Saturday on Shop Street my son! :P

ChunkyLover54

Night Falls wrote: »

Divorce.
The criminalisation of homosexuality.
Not being able to buy condoms.
Good Friday / Christmas Day / sunday morning restrictions on alcohol (a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things, but in principle it shows the power the church once had on the country.

Just to name a few things that were / are influenced by the church, and happened in my lifetime (i'm roughly the same age as you).

Apart from the restriction on alcohol for all of 2 days a year (which frankly is not a bad idea considering the chronic alcohol problems in this country) the other examples of church influence you listed are ancient.

If you are a similar age to me then, I can assure you, you were not repressed by the Catholic church and your'e exaggerating the extent to which they try to impose themselves on modern society

Night Falls

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

Apart from the restriction on alcohol for all of 2 days a year (which frankly is not a bad idea considering the chronic alcohol problems in this country) the other examples of church influence you listed are ancient.

If you are a similar age to me then, I can assure you, you were not repressed by the Catholic church and your'e exaggerating the extent to which they try to impose themselves on modern society

That's not the point though, their influence is still being felt in law making of this kind (the restriction on alcohol sales is a different topic, and public health isn't the reason why it's banned on the days i mentioned). Their continuing (but thankfully diminishing) influence is also shown through their vehement opposition to same sex marriage. They're trying to act as a moral authority, when in reality they long ago gave up their right to lecture or pontificate to us.

And I wouldn't call something that happened less than 20 years ago ancient. Their power was also used to cover up abuse up until the mid-90's (at least), should we just ignore that as well because it wasn't in the last 10 minutes?

ChunkyLover54

Night Falls wrote: »

That's not the point though, their influence is still being felt in law making of this kind (the restriction on alcohol sales is a different topic, and public health isn't the reason why it's banned on the days i mentioned). Their continuing (but thankfully diminishing) influence is also shown through their vehement opposition to same sex marriage. They're trying to act as a moral authority, when in reality they long ago gave up their right to lecture or pontificate to us.

And I wouldn't call something that happened less than 20 years ago ancient. Their power was also used to cover up abuse up until the mid-90's (at least), should we just ignore that as well because it wasn't in the last 10 minutes?

Any major influence the church had in this country has long since passed.

If you are a secular person like me (and I assume, also, you) then you have to actively search for any little "influence" the church has left or else you wouldn't know it even existed.

Night Falls

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

Any major influence the church had in this country has long since passed.

If you are a secular person like me (and I assume, also, you) then you have to actively search for any little "influence" the church has left or else you wouldn't know it even existed.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree that they're nowhere near as powerful as they used to be, thankfully. But why should they have any power, especially when it comes to them imposing their morals and beliefs on the rest of us?

Wompa1

Night Falls wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree that they're nowhere near as powerful as they used to be, thankfully. But why should they have any power, especially when it comes to them imposing their morals and beliefs on the rest of us?

Because people are free to have their own beliefs.

ChunkyLover54

Night Falls wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree that they're nowhere near as powerful as they used to be, thankfully. But why should they have any power, especially when it comes to them imposing their morals and beliefs on the rest of us?

They dont have any power (if your'e a normal independent thinking person).

Night Falls

Wompa1 wrote: »

Because people are free to have their own beliefs.

At the expense of others? How is allowing those who don't share their beliefs have certain activities or rights stopping them from practicing theirs?

Sappa

As long as they told the kids to throw the wrapper in the bin I don't see the problem in them handing out a few sweeties.

Mrs OBumble

Night Falls wrote: »

But why should they have any power, especially when it comes to them imposing their morals and beliefs on the rest of us?

Ahh, democracy?

At the last census, 86% reported themselves as Catholic. Whether or not they're "practising" (whatever you think that means), it's likely that catholic values impact on their personal values, and therefore society's values.

Night Falls

JustMary wrote: »

Ahh, democracy?

At the last census, 86% reported themselves as Catholic. Whether or not they're "practising" (whatever you think that means), it's likely that catholic values impact on their personal values, and therefore society's values.

And 73% of people polled voted for same sex marriage. Democracy indeed.

For the record, I put down catholocism as my religion in the census, as technically it is correct. But tellingly, a recent poll showed that less than 50% consider themselves religious. That's what I mean by whether people are practicing catholics or not.

Night Falls

Also, damn and blast google chrome spell check for making me doubt the proper spelling of "practising"

inisboffin

Night Falls wrote: »

And 73% of people polled voted for same sex marriage. Democracy indeed.

For the record, I put down catholocism as my religion in the census, as technically it is correct. But tellingly, a recent poll showed that less than 50% consider themselves religious. That's what I mean by whether people are practicing catholics or not.

Yep. A lot of people just tick the box but haven't been near a church or a sacrament in 20 years!

If there are people alive in the community that were are alive when the 'church' had a huge influence on jobs, contraception, etc, then I would argue their influence is still present by virtue of the makeup of these people.

It's not that long ago when condoms were illegal, never mind divorce.

Mrs OBumble

inisboffin wrote: »

If it did there wouldn't be as many young pregnancies! If it did have such traditional values there'd be NO sex before marriage!
It's not just the blow-ins going to pubs nightclubs looking for a per-marital shag you know, these are Irish people who don't, for the majority hold those 'traditional values any more!:p

Ahh, but you're forgetting the difference between what people believe, what they say the believe, and what they actually do. IMHO this is an area where many Irish people have a particular genius talent - I suspect born of the necessity of living under occupation rule for so long.



Also re a earlier post from someone else about "there's no such thing as a Christian marriage". Ahh, no, that's not correct. Catholic belief (I cannot speak for other Christians) is that sacramental marriage is experienced in the relationship between man and woman. This is different to both civil union and to a non-religious marriage.

Where we've got unstuck is the patching together of religious and civil marriage - things would be a lot cleaner if they were two totally separate things.