Bar staff??

byhookorbycrook · 26-08-2012 3:48pm #1

Ad on the" jobs in education" section on the Examiner yesterday, offering bar/hotel work to unemployed teachers.Says a lot about the teaching vacancy market.

bdoo · 26-08-2012 5:21pm

Know a few teachers who do a bit part Time even during the year.

byhookorbycrook · 26-08-2012 5:44pm

Part time, yes, but not "instead of!"

Fuinseog · 26-08-2012 6:46pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ad on the" jobs in education" section on the Examiner yesterday, offering bar/hotel work to unemployed teachers.Says a lot about the teaching vacancy market.

a great place to learn about life and deal with people . drunks and teenagers can be very unpredictable.

bdoo · 26-08-2012 7:52pm

Fuinseog wrote: »

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ad on the" jobs in education" section on the Examiner yesterday, offering bar/hotel work to unemployed teachers.Says a lot about the teaching vacancy market.

a great place to learn about life and deal with people . drunks and teenagers can be very unpredictable.

As can drunken teenagers

happywithlife · 26-08-2012 10:11pm

saw that as well
i'm considering a waitressing job at the moment cause of the lack of jobs in my area

on a related note,
what is with all the 4 & 6 hr positions this year? i've never seen so many jobs advertisied with just this amount of hours - how come there is just a rash of them this year?

The Big Red Button · 26-08-2012 10:13pm

Don't see anything wrong with it, to be honest.

If the jobs aren't there, surely most would seek employment where possible?

Miss Lockhart · 26-08-2012 10:27pm

Nobody here has indicated they have a problem with teachers supplementing (or replacing) their income with bar work. I think the point is that the ad reinforces the fact that employment prospects are pretty grim for teachers at the moment - a fact that many non teachers and future teachers don't seem willing to believe.

On a related note - I wonder where bar work stands in relation to the deliberately vague reference to a teacher's "private interests" in the new code of conduct? Would it depend on the type of bar? Or on whether you would end up serving your own students? I'm sure most people don't think general bar work is in conflict with a teacher's professional life, but I think this vague rule is open to interpretation and abuse.

happywithlife · 27-08-2012 12:07am

if i remember correctly the ad was for sept for co clare so my assumption on seeing it, was that it was for the liosdonvarna (sp?) festival.
but i knew a girl in college that had a part-time bar job and she served underage kids from a school she did tp in - personally i didnt' agree with that at all.

seavill · 27-08-2012 12:20am

Yea I'm not a fan of the whole teaching council code as it is so vague in parts, however I would personally be of the opinion that someone who is a teacher (or even student teacher) who is working in a bar and knowingly serves under-age students deserves to be brought up in front of the TC and whomever else.

In reality these days you do what you have to do to survive in terms of accepting work, however you must also be very aware of your place

Miss Lockhart · 27-08-2012 12:25am

I completely agree that nobody should be serving underage people - especially their teachers! But not all students are under 18 and so plenty of teachers end up serving their students in this situation. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it but I think the vague code leaves that open to interpretation.

Same for teachers involved in modelling. Shaky territory considering the new code, I think.

seavill · 27-08-2012 12:29am

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I completely agree that nobody should be serving underage people - especially their teachers! But not all students are under 18 and so plenty of teachers end up serving their students in this situation. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it but I think the vague code leaves that open to interpretation.

Same for teachers involved in modelling. Shaky territory considering the new code, I think.

I was speaking about under age students

Miss Lockhart · 27-08-2012 12:31am

seavill wrote: »

I was speaking about under age students

Yes you said that in your post.

I was just clarifying that when I spoke about teachers serving their own students in my first post, I was not referring to underage students.

seavill · 27-08-2012 12:35am

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Yes you said that in your post.

I was just clarifying that when I spoke about teachers serving their own students in my first post, I was not referring to underage students.

Yea I was originally responding to happywithwife. I

It was a mix up ov conversations

happywithlife · 27-08-2012 1:39pm

just to clarify re the serving underage drinkers -
(which i completely didn't agree with)
it was - gezz - over 10 years ago now so well before TC etc but at the time i still felt it was unprofessional of her - but then she was in the 'cool gang' and i wasn't :rolleyes:
i always felt that if she didn't want to be responsible for kicking them out (think they were leaving certs and maybe a mixture of 18 and underage - can't remember exactly) but i always felt she shouldn't have served them herself - it was a busy bar so plenty of other staff on but i got the impression she was making herself out to be 'so cool' and trendy --
dont' think she'd get away with it today !

Pebble on the Beach · 27-08-2012 2:53pm

happywithlife wrote: »

just to clarify re the serving underage drinkers -
(which i completely didn't agree with)
it was - gezz - over 10 years ago now so well before TC etc but at the time i still felt it was unprofessional of her - but then she was in the 'cool gang' and i wasn't :rolleyes:
i always felt that if she didn't want to be responsible for kicking them out (think they were leaving certs and maybe a mixture of 18 and underage - can't remember exactly) but i always felt she shouldn't have served them herself - it was a busy bar so plenty of other staff on but i got the impression she was making herself out to be 'so cool' and trendy --
dont' think she'd get away with it today !

Yes, unprofessional but it is also illegal to knowingly (maybe also unknowingly?) serve alcohol to persons under the age of 18.

bdoo · 28-08-2012 8:12am

I don't think that because you are a registered teacher that there is any more or any less of an obligation to follow the law.

To me it is not a moral question but a legal one. I remember years ago working at a racing festival where I refused to give a drink to a young lad, he returned with his daddy who was abusive enough towards me saying the son had his permission to drink!

Anyway teacher or no teacher kid wasn't getting drink.

I agree with seavill that the codes are rubbish. What I do in my private life is my business and doesn't affect my ability to teach. Criminal activities are another matter.

Pebble on the Beach · 28-08-2012 10:50am

bdoo wrote: »

I agree with seavill that the codes are rubbish. What I do in my private life is my business and doesn't affect my ability to teach. Criminal activities are another matter.

Completely disagree, the code is a step in the right direction as there has to be miinimum standards, most I would have thought would be common sense, but having a 'code' clarifies the situation (although in it's current form perhaps only slightly as it would still appear to be rather ambigious). IMO 'professional standards' have to be upheld in a 'teacher's private life' without reservation.

Would you think it acceptable, for example, for teachers to go out and get pissed at the weekend in the same pub (or even in the same company) as some of their students?

What about having stories and photos of some of their drunken antics and 'romantic' exploits plastered over facebook for all to see?

And how about developing close 'relationships' with their students?

The above examples may not affect the teacher's 'ability to teach' directly but I would suggest that such scenarios could affect the teacher's reputation and therefore have an indrect impact whereby the students' ability to learn may be compromised by a loss of respect and confidence in their teacher.

As I said, it ought to be 'common sense' but unfortunately this is not always the case and some teachers may need a 'code' as a reminder that there are some lines that should not be crossed.

seavill · 28-08-2012 3:34pm

Firstly my entire prob with the code is that it is completely open to interpretation it is not specific to anything if it was I might not have such a problem. It is so open to interpret anything any way they want. As they intended I suppose.

As for your example of relationships with students you don't need a new code to cover that one.

For you example of getting drunk in the same pub as students. Firstly I do not drink at all however are you telling me if I was enjoying a night out with a bit of drink and some students walk on the door I have to leave to avoid being drunk around them ?

bdoo · 28-08-2012 4:30pm

So because we are teachers we should be in bed before 10 and make sure we are seen going to mass every Sunday.

Good people do not need codes. I resent being told that I cannot do x y and z because I am a teacher.

Maybe we should make it illegal for parents to be drunk in front of their kids. It would certainly do more than stopping teachers from being seen drinking by them.

If a student is in a pub they should be 18 if they are not 18 its not my problem, it's up to the publican or the parents.

As for Facebook not everyone posts up every detail of their lives. In any case the see far worse on Geordie shore and tallafornia which parents readily let them view.

Pebble on the Beach · 28-08-2012 6:33pm

seavill wrote: »

Firstly my entire prob with the code is that it is completely open to interpretation it is not specific to anything if it was I might not have such a problem. It is so open to interpret anything any way they want

I agree it is open to interpretation that's why I said it was ambigious but I still feel it is a step in the right direction.

seavill wrote: »

As for your example of relationships with students you don't need a new code to cover that one.

Depends on what type of 'relationship' I suppose. I don't think it's appropriate for teachers to befriend their students on facebook but I know some teachers who seem to think it's ok to have that kind of 'relationship' or 'friendship' with their students.

seavill wrote: »

For you example of getting drunk in the same pub as students. Firstly I do not drink at all however are you telling me if I was enjoying a night out with a bit of drink and some students walk on the door I have to leave to avoid being drunk around them ?

Of course I am not telling you that you should leave a pub if some of your students came in. That wouldn't be my call. What I am saying is that I believe that teachers have a social responsibility to their students that extends beyond the classroom. I would hope that if a teacher was ever in a situation where they were on a night out and some of their students staggered into the same pub (all underage) that they would exercise this social responsibility -perhaps by notifying the publican/bar-staff and not simply turning a blind eye.

I have a teacher friend who was out having a few pints (in the UK) a few years back when he spotted a couple of kids from his school at the bar (aged about 15/16). As he felt uncomfortable about this he approached them and 'suggested' they leave the premises. They did, problem solved.

There has to be limitations to such social responsiblity of course, and common sense should prevail at all times.

Pebble on the Beach · 28-08-2012 7:36pm

I'm glad you edited out your question on 'civil liberties' to me Bdoo ... I assume the answer became obvious to you?

bdoo wrote: »

So because we are teachers we should be in bed before 10 and make sure we are seen going to mass every Sunday.

This is just silly now. Nobody said anything of the kind.

bdoo wrote: »

Good people do not need codes. I resent being told that I cannot do x y and z because I am a teacher.

There are lots of 'good' people who live by 'codes of conduct' in their professional lives (which carries on through to their personal lives) and have no issue with it - e.g. doctors, solicitors, bankers and when these professionals fail to abide by these codes (rogue bankers springs to mind

) they are held accountable (or ought to be!). What I'm saying is having a 'code of conduct' for teachers is really no different from lots of other professions. I would suggest that many teachers already live by such a 'code' - albeit an unwritten one - and the new 'code of conduct' will therefore only serve to reinforce these principles, aswell as acting as a benchmark for all new entrants to the profession (although, as previously mentioned, I do think more clarity is required).

bdoo wrote: »

Maybe we should make it illegal for parents to be drunk in front of their kids. It would certainly do more than stopping teachers from being seen drinking by them.

Again, this is just silly. Of course parents have a responsibility to their children but as there is a problem with underage drinking in society do you not agree that educators should also play their part in addressing this issue?

bdoo wrote: »

If a student is in a pub they should be 18 if they are not 18 its not my problem, it's up to the publican or the parents.

Well it's nice to know what side of the fence you sit on. That's one of the reason why a code was needed - it's aimed at teachers like you that have this kind of attitude. Would you seriously have no problem with seeing some of your students (underage) falling around a pub pissed out their heads? Would you just turn a blind eye and wash your hands of the situation as it wasn't your 'problem' Really??

Obviously parents have a responsibility and publicans have a legal obligation to address these situations but IMO if a teacher was in the same pub and witnessed such a scenario then professional ethics should come into play. As a teacher should you not have a social and moral obligation to show concern rather than ignore it.

bdoo wrote: »

As for Facebook not everyone posts up every detail of their lives. In any case the see far worse on Geordie shore and tallafornia which parents readily let them view.

Of course 'not everyone posts up every detail of their lives' but unfortunately some people do, including teachers, with undue regard to privacy settings. You are way off the mark here again and the point I'm trying to make also has nothing to do with students watching reality TV shows

- unless of course their teacher was starring in it

in which case I would assume that would constitute a breach of the 'code of conduct' .....

bdoo · 28-08-2012 9:33pm

There was no need to turn this into a personal attack pebbleonthebeach

That's one of the reason why a code was needed - it's aimed at teachers like you

No need for it.

I don't even feel like responding as you have your mind made up on this and obviously know me well enough to make such statements.

I will say the following - the presence or absence of a teacher from a bar on a particular night will have no impact on the drinking habits of teenagers - education yes, supervision no.

I am a teacher, I am a professional and I take pride in my work. I do not feel however that I am responsible for the ills of society and have a duty to address them 24/7. The codes of conduct place an excessive burden on teachers when in the hands of someone who would apply them in the manner you would.

You suggest that there is a moral obligation to show concern - I show concern, genuine concern every day in work. There is a mark that can be overstepped I 'sticking your nose in' and parents will tell you quite quickly.

There could be so many other people in that pub you speak of from every profession and parents too! Publican, teacher, doctor, engineer, garda, aunt, uncle, brother - the only one with any responsibility as they try to unwind and relax with friends is the teacher.

Please, give me a break.

Also, don't make assumptions about me and if you do keep them to yourself as I have done.

whiteandlight · 28-08-2012 9:43pm

"Well it's nice to know what side of the fence you sit on. That's one of the reason why a code was needed - it's aimed at teachers like you that have this kind of attitude. Would you seriously have no problem with seeing some of your students (underage) falling around a pub pissed out their heads? Would you just turn a blind eye and wash your hands of the situation as it wasn't your 'problem' Really??

Obviously parents have a responsibility and publicans have a legal obligation to address these situations but IMO if a teacher was in the same pub and witnessed such a scenario then professional ethics should come into play. As a teacher should you not have a social and moral obligation to show concern rather than ignore it."

This would worry me. I was permitted out by my parents when I was underage. What happens if I now as a teacher come across one of my students drinking underage in a pub. How am I supposed to decide whether I should be contacting parents? I wouldn't even have access to their number. And I know my parents attitude when I was that age was that it was far better to have me out in a pub albeit underage in an environment with people around as opposed to lusting under a bridge by a canal or something. As a teacher is our job not to teach, not to babysit or interfere with what may have been a parental call? Obviously if a student is vomiting or visibly in danger that is a different situation where intervention is required. My problem with the code is this type of grey area

seavill · 28-08-2012 10:14pm

Pebble on the Beach wrote: »

Depends on what type of 'relationship' I suppose. I don't think it's appropriate for teachers to befriend their students on facebook but I know some teachers who seem to think it's ok to have that kind of 'relationship' or 'friendship' with their students.

This was my point. This is where the problem lies, I took that by relationionship you meant a personal relationship as it "lovers" for lack of a better word. You were talking about facebook. That one word form you came to two different meanings very quickly. Someone else may have taken it a different way also. This is where the problem lies in general with open wording the code can be taken to mean whatever they want it to mean in a given situation. FOR EXAMPLE there may not be any specific mention of social media (I think there is but I'm just using this as an example) but if there was not a specific mention of it apart from a general sentance I might not pick up on the meaning and interpret it one way but then end up in front of the TC who intended it a different way. As I said if it was a set of rules to stick by it would be a lot easier to agree or disagree.

Of course I am not telling you that you should leave a pub if some of your students came in. That wouldn't be my call. What I am saying is that I believe that teachers have a social responsibility to their students that extends beyond the classroom. I would hope that if a teacher was ever in a situation where they were on a night out and some of their students staggered into the same pub (all underage) that they would exercise this social responsibility -perhaps by notifying the publican/bar-staff and not simply turning a blind eye.

As I said before I actually don't drink but did once speak with a publican about an underage student. I was abused to a height by the student followed by abuse by his father for "slagging off his parenting skills" how dare I stick my nose in when the kid had the father's permission to be there

I have a teacher friend who was out having a few pints (in the UK) a few years back when he spotted a couple of kids from his school at the bar (aged about 15/16). As he felt uncomfortable about this he approached them and 'suggested' they leave the premises. They did, problem solved.

answered above

There has to be limitations to such social responsiblity of course, and common sense should prevail at all times.

one person's common sense is not always someone else's this is the point YOU are making that this is the reason we need to code as common sense does not always apply. You have contradicted yourself here.

Pebble on the Beach wrote: »

There are lots of 'good' people who live by 'codes of conduct' in their professional lives (which carries on through to their personal lives) and have no issue with it - e.g. doctors, solicitors, bankers and when these professionals fail to abide by these codes (rogue bankers springs to mind ) they are held accountable (or ought to be!). What I'm saying is having a 'code of conduct' for teachers is really no different from lots of other professions. I would suggest that many teachers already live by such a 'code' - albeit an unwritten one - and the new 'code of conduct' will therefore only serve to reinforce these principles, aswell as acting as a benchmark for all new entrants to the profession (although, as previously mentioned, I do think more clarity is required).

Which part of the codes for solicitors and bankers carry on thorugh their personal life? Also apart from maybe helping out in a situation if they are there I don't see how a doctors code has any effect on their private life. Surely they have more of a responsibility than us to say something in a pub if one of their underage patients are in drinking. How many times would this have ever happened?

Again, this is just silly. Of course parents have a responsibility to their children but as there is a problem with underage drinking in society do you not agree that educators should also play their part in addressing this issue?

I agree we play a part - that part starts and stops at the front door of the school. In reality we all know of kids that are not fed properly not looked after at home etc etc etc. Surely with your logic we have a responsibility to make sure they eat and sleep during our off time also????

Well it's nice to know what side of the fence you sit on. That's one of the reason why a code was needed - it's aimed at teachers like you that have this kind of attitude.

No need for this in my opinion

Obviously parents have a responsibility and publicans have a legal obligation to address these situations but IMO if a teacher was in the same pub and witnessed such a scenario then professional ethics should come into play. As a teacher should you not have a social and moral obligation to show concern rather than ignore it.

If a parent does not know where their child is then there is very little we can do. As I said above stepping in can lead to a whole set of its own probelms
.

bdoo wrote: »

There was no need to turn this into a personal attack pebbleonthebeach

No need for it.

Agree

I will say the following - the presence or absence of a teacher from a bar on a particular night will have no impact on the drinking habits of teenagers - education yes, supervision no.

Agree

I am a teacher, I am a professional and I take pride in my work. I do not feel however that I am responsible for the ills of society and have a duty to address them 24/7. The codes of conduct place an excessive burden on teachers when in the hands of someone who would apply them in the manner you would.

As with my point above re child not being cared for at home properly

There could be so many other people in that pub you speak of from every profession and parents too! Publican, teacher, doctor, engineer, garda, aunt, uncle, brother - the only one with any responsibility as they try to unwind and relax with friends is the teacher.

Agree again

Pebble on the Beach · 29-08-2012 1:03am

It would seem that it's not only the 'code' that can be misinterpreted as my words appear to be doing the same .... When I said the code was aimed at "people like you" I did not actually mean you personally Bdoo, I was referring to people 'like' you that have a similar attitude of particular situations (such as drunk underage students not being your 'problem'), I gave a few examples/situations that could arise (however there are so many others) and having a code should clarify what is deemed acceptable by members of a professional body (although I would stress, again, that the code goes some way towards this but remains ambigious to a certain degree).

I do however accept that you, and others, could view my comments as a 'personal attack' and I apologise for this, it certainly was not my intention (I'll proof-read my messages in future instead of just bashing away on the keyboard and posting in haste). I should have been more articulate and I am sorry for any offence caused.

I do not however apologise for my stance on the subject, that remains the same, although perhaps I'm not making myself clear - I only gave the 'drunk student' scenario as an example but I'm not implying that teachers are responsible 24/7 for their students behaviour, nor for all the ills of society - the scenarios to which I refer are growing arms and legs!

Musicmental85, yes it is a grey area but I didn't say anything about contacting parents! Would you not feel you had a 'reponsibility' to at least inform the publican/bar staff? Or would you feel comfortable enjoying your night-out knowing your students were drinking in the same place illegally?

When I lived in the UK there was an incident where a teacher went out on the lash with her friends and ended up in the same nightclub as some of her students (who all had fake ID). She didn't have a problem with it and they partied the night away together. At the end of the night she accompanied the students to a house party - I can't recall if pictures were circulated but once the 'news' spread around the school she was hauled into management and faced disiplinary action for attending an underage drinking party. Her lack of judgement was brought into question and deemed unacceptable for someone in her position to put herself in that situation - and it could have been so much worse (it only takes a student with a grudge to throw an 'accusation' in the wrong direction). Ok, this is an extreme example and I'd like to think that the majority of teachers would agree that it would not be acceptable to socialise in this manner - but this situation could have been avoided at the outset if she had acted in the manner in which I am trying to get across (although it appears I'm not doing a very good job of it by all accounts!)

Seavill, I wasn't specifically referring to facebook when I made mention of 'relationships' (or 'lovers for that matter). I meant it in a general sense - as in the definition given in the Oxford Dictionary: "the way in which two or more people or groups regard and behave towards each other". I went on to give an example of a facebook relationship but the point I was trying to make was that a code should ensure that teachers give due thought and consideration to all kinds of relationships with their students. I completely agree however that the code as it currently stands does not go far enough and the rules are not set in stone.

You say you once spoke "with a publican about an underage student" so you must have felt it was the right thing to do at that time. Could I ask if your viewpoint changed only as a result of receiving abuse from the student (and subsequently his father) for doing so?

I mentioned codes of practices of doctors, solicitors, bankers merely to indicate that teachers are not the only profession who have to conduct themselves in a manner conducive to a 'code' for their profession - nothing to do with the 'drunk student scenario' - I only mentioned it in response to Bdoo's comment that "good people do not need codes" to emphasise the point that lots of "good people" already have codes!

I am pleased you "agree we play a part" but sorry you think it "starts and stops at the front door of the school". You say that "we all know of kids that are not fed properly not looked after at home etc" that may be true but there are child-protection guidelines to follow where such instances are of great concern and procedure set in place to deal with it.

I would be interested to know what you would do if you were approached by a student outside of school and disclosed information about abuse?

seavill · 29-08-2012 11:02am

Pebble on the Beach wrote: »

It would seem that it's not only the 'code' that can be misinterpreted as my words appear to be doing the same .... When I said the code was aimed at "people like you" I did not actually mean you personally Bdoo, I was referring to people 'like' you that have a similar attitude of particular situations (such as drunk underage students not being your 'problem'), I gave a few examples/situations that could arise (however there are so many others) and having a code should clarify what is deemed acceptable by members of a professional body (although I would stress, again, that the code goes some way towards this but remains ambigious to a certain degree)

as discussed this is where the problem lies, the code does not set out what is acceptable and what is not, it sets out broad statements that as I said can be taken whatever way the TC want to take them based on a given situation. This is the point most people are making generally without going into specifics of a situation

I do not however apologise for my stance on the subject, that remains the same, although perhaps I'm not making myself clear - I only gave the 'drunk student' scenario as an example but I'm not implying that teachers are responsible 24/7 for their students behaviour, nor for all the ills of society - the scenarios to which I refer are growing arms and legs!

This again is the point, the scenarios you refer to have been taken a couple of ways, they have added and you yourself have completely changed secenarios when things were getting messy. For example you used the term relationships I took it one way you took it another and used facebook but then you say you are not specficially referring to it. Again here in lies the problem, everyones interpretation to the current discussion is different.

When I lived in the UK there was an incident where a teacher went out on the lash with her friends and ended up in the same nightclub as some of her students (who all had fake ID). She didn't have a problem with it and they partied the night away together. At the end of the night she accompanied the students to a house party - I can't recall if pictures were circulated but once the 'news' spread around the school she was hauled into management and faced disiplinary action for attending an underage drinking party.

Lets be honest here that teacher was an idiot and deserves to be shown the door code or no code.

Seavill, I wasn't specifically referring to facebook when I made mention of 'relationships' (or 'lovers for that matter). I meant it in a general sense - as in the definition given in the Oxford Dictionary: "the way in which two or more people or groups regard and behave towards each other". I went on to give an example of a facebook relationship but the point I was trying to make was that a code should ensure that teachers give due thought and consideration to all kinds of relationships with their students. I completely agree however that the code as it currently stands does not go far enough and the rules are not set in stone.

So how do we define your term relationships lets face it the dictionary definition does not help the arugment at all. We are not really talking about facebook stuff, not really talking about lovers, what are we talking about then?

You say you once spoke "with a publican about an underage student" so you must have felt it was the right thing to do at that time. Could I ask if your viewpoint changed only as a result of receiving abuse from the student (and subsequently his father) for doing so?

Yes my viewpoint has changed after this. I was naive to think at the time that kids were not allowed out underage as I was not growing up but I am finding that for the last few years the kids I manage in my local club 16 is the acceptable age that parents allow their kids out to nightclubs generally. This how now become the norm. I am not for a second saying this is right but its not my job to parent their child. As someone mentioned that the parents have a far greater responsibility to make sure their kids are doing the right thing and if they decide to allow their kids to go to clubs early, then who am I to interfere with their parenting?

I mentioned codes of practices of doctors, solicitors, bankers merely to indicate that teachers are not the only profession who have to conduct themselves in a manner conducive to a 'code' for their profession - nothing to do with the 'drunk student scenario' - I only mentioned it in response to Bdoo's comment that "good people do not need codes" to emphasise the point that lots of "good people" already have codes!

My point you seemed to skip over was that if you go back to your post you specifically refer to these codes for these other professions go beyond their work life and you mention into their private lives. I asked you where does this apply to any of these having a social responsibility for example in a night club with an underage person they know of. This is where I asked about the drunk student scenario, You brought it up I applied your logic but you have since changed the question which seems you have done a few times to suit the argument in different places

I am pleased you "agree we play a part" but sorry you think it "starts and stops at the front door of the school". You say that "we all know of kids that are not fed properly not looked after at home etc" that may be true but there are child-protection guidelines to follow where such instances are of great concern and procedure set in place to deal with it.

Yes their are procedures but the procedures do not cover what I have said. I have had cases in the past where a kid has gone hungry numerous occasions we have informed the relevant authorities but there is only so much they can do, they cannot go in and just take the child off without following their LONG list of procedures. Where do we lie on this in terms of social responsibility??

Surely we have a greater responsibility here more so than when sitting in a pub. Where does your definition of social responsibility lie?

I would be interested to know what you would do if you were approached by a student outside of school and disclosed information about abuse?

This is a completely different situation, but if a child came to me like this you would obviously as I discussed above inform the authorities, There is a huge different in the situations YOU brought up. A 17 year old who is allowed to the pub by their parents, possibly driven their and collected after by their parents, and a child you is getting abused and is in immediate danger from a parent. Surely you can see the difference here

Rather than going around the houses with the situations we have discussed on the thread so far, can you tell us what your definitions of the responsibilites are,
at the start you mention not being in a pub with drunk students, do we have to leave, if the bar tender does nothing about it what do we do then, etc.
Relationships where is the line specifically here for you, what is your definition, and where does it stop. (one example here as I mentioned I manage kids teams, up to u18 we won a national cup last year, they celebrated by going out as a squad with managers and parents, some went onto clubs who were 18 and legal and followed us in, we obviously have a close relationship for 3 years together, I teach some of these kids also, where do I stand on this one, they are legal, allowed to go out, we are celebrating as a group, must I step away from the celebrations as I cannot have a "relationship" with students outside of school (taking out the drunk aspect).

There are so many different scenarios I personally feel a code is very difficult to implement across the board (Not saying there shouldn't be one about the profession however my life is my life, my job is my job they do cross over to a certain extent but anyone who cannot find the line should not be in the profession in the first place)

Bar staff??

Comments