Gaps in engineered wood floor

Red door

Hi - we had an engineered wooden oak floor fitted this week. There are gaps appearing in the floor now - here and there. They weren't there on the first day. Is this normal?

Reader1937

No. Normally engineered floors are constructed to have better tensile strength than a normal board of the same thickness, as well as lack of movement due to the cross ply. Please describe the gaps or post a pic or two.

Red door

Thanks for reply - just new to this and cannot find how to attach a pic - any idea? :-|

fergal.b

If the boards were not stored in the room for a few days before laying so that they could acclimate to humidity they can shrink after laying.
Is it click and lock or glued tongue and groove, if it's click and lock you should be able to take it up and relay it.

Red door

Hi - I asked the guy if they had to sit in the house to acclimatise and he said no - not with engineered flooring!!

I don't want him to blind me with science when he comes back to look at it :-)

fergal.b

They should have been left to acclimatise in my opinion even steel can can expand and contract to different temperatures and if they were stored in a warehouse that had a slight dampness in the air it can make a big difference when brought into a dry warm house.
Show him this http://www.ukflooringdirect.co.uk/info/How_to_Lay_Engineered_Wood_Flooring.html or see if you can find the instructions off one of the boxes I'm sure it will say it on it.
Best of luck.



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Reader1937

At this time of year there should have been minimum shrinkage anyway - wait till the central heating starts to dry ou the house, then there will be timber shrinkage. Fergal.b is right - timber shrinks if it moves from a moist to a dry atmosphere, but engineered boards (if they have cross ply) shrink least of any type of wooden flooring. Is any of the timber ripped? Cracked around nails, cracked at the edges where it might have been glued together or where a click system may have been torn? How it was fixed in the first place will make a lot of difference to how it is repaired, regardless of the cause.
Just a thought - was it fixed directly to the top of an existing solid timber floor (pine for example)? If so, the base floor will move whatever is put on top of it.

Reader1937

At this time of year there should have been minimum shrinkage anyway - wait till the central heating starts to dry ou the house, then there will be timber shrinkage. Fergal.b is right - timber shrinks if it moves from a moist to a dry atmosphere, but engineered boards (if they have cross ply) shrink least of any type of wooden flooring. Is any of the timber ripped? Cracked around nails, cracked at the edges where it might have been glued together or where a click system may have been torn? How it was fixed in the first place will make a lot of difference to how it is repaired, regardless of the cause.
Just a thought - was it fixed directly to the top of an existing solid timber floor (pine for example)? If so, the base floor will move whatever is put on top of it.

Red door

Hi all - thanks a million - the boards are tongue and groove and glued! Laid on a prevoiusly carpeted concrete floor. I am so disappointed - it really has taken the dood out of it. He had to put weights on some parts of the flooring about 8 inches back from where it meets the kitchen tiles) as there was a huge amount of bounce. I asked if it needed a levelling compound and he said no - just more glue! Does that sound "normal" ?

fergal.b

That doesn't sound good :eek: and as it's glued tongue & groove not a easy fix I'm afraid

Reader1937

If the boards are cupping then it may be due to unwanted moisture causing the board to curl. I worked with people who did site inspections like this in the past - the most agressive was a 1" oak floor that expanded and moved slightly a 4" block wall (no expansion room given in the first place). It may not be the floor layers fault - it could be moisture through the concrete floor if it doesn't have a great dpc or there is a leaking pipe. As you did here - perhaps get indi advice from someone who can look at the floor and get mc from the concrete floor. The floor supplier may have someone who could help. Unless the floor was lifted away from the floor to pour it, levelling compound would only add a serious amount of moisture to the issue.
There is quite a bit that "might" have happened - you need someone there to look at it there - not here I am afraid.

recipio

If its any help I have oak composite boards with glued tongue and groove down about 10 years ( put down by myself ) and I have never had any gaps open up.
Sounds to me like a failure of technique ( not enough glue, not clamped into place , no vapour barrier) or a moisture problem with the subfloor.
My only problem has been significant fading of the colour around large windows and patio doors.
Sounds like you will have to resolve it with the fitter. ?

Red door

Hi Lads,

Update - fitter came back today to look at his work. He was all prepared to take off the skirting and "tap" the boards and gaps closed !!!

Obviously this was not an acceptable solution - not sure how you can tap something to close gaps once it has been glued ?

So we have agreed the floor is coming back up - the new floor boards are now sitting in the spare room climatsing :-). Although he still insists that this is unnecessary ! The boards are in boxes - but no manufacturer instructions on the box - I have been told not to open the boxes as it will impact the wood ! Can't believe the contradiction !!

Any advice of what I should be looking for when he returns? he says gaps are normal ??? If any gap is normal what does it measure and do you see them along the length of the board or at the ends ( hope that doesn't sound daft)

Many many thanks for all the help/advice / information up to now - it is what made the difference today.

galwaydude18

Can you post up a pic of the gaps?

Red door

Sorry - I don't know how to - I have taken photos on this iPad but don't know how to upload them to this site.!!!

galwaydude18

Connect your iPad to the pc and copy the photo from it to your pc then go to boards.ie on your pc an you will be able to post them up

recipio

Red door wrote: »

Hi Lads,

Update - fitter came back today to look at his work. He was all prepared to take off the skirting and "tap" the boards and gaps closed !!!

Obviously this was not an acceptable solution - not sure how you can tap something to close gaps once it has been glued ?

So we have agreed the floor is coming back up - the new floor boards are now sitting in the spare room climatsing :-). Although he still insists that this is unnecessary ! The boards are in boxes - but no manufacturer instructions on the box - I have been told not to open the boxes as it will impact the wood ! Can't believe the contradiction !!

Any advice of what I should be looking for when he returns? he says gaps are normal ??? If any gap is normal what does it measure and do you see them along the length of the board or at the ends ( hope that doesn't sound daft)

Many many thanks for all the help/advice / information up to now - it is what made the difference today.

Gaps are not normal - don't accept that BS. The whole point of storing boards is to let the atmosphere get at them . At least slit the plastic around them.
You are correct - the gaps can't be closed by 'tapping'. Special clamps are available to close gaps when fitting - they are usually used on the last board as they use the walls to tighten up any small hairline gaps.

Red door

PC is not working so deffo cannot upload photos :-(

Good insight for me into clamping - will make sure I look when he is fitting the floor second time around - anything else which indicates a craftsman at work ?

fergal.b

I would also get that soft spot looked at to see was it a dip in the sub floor or was it the floorboards blowing up that caused the bounce if it is a dip it will have to be filled extra glue won't fix it :eek:
It's very hard to say anything without seeing it and I can't comment on the guys work but something is telling me you should get a pro to come out and have a look and to give you a price for the job then he can tell you whats going on and may not charge for the quote.

Good luck with it.

Red door

Great advice :-) I did wonder about that spot that was bouncing - many thanks.

1chippy

If the boards are glued down using a flooring adhesive on the backs of them, then the hollows can be raised and stuck down that way. i think you are being slightly awkward by not giving the man the chance to tighten the boards back by taking off the skirting. It is unhighly likely that it would work but you should Are give the lad the chance to fix it his way and then tell him hes wrong.
are the gaps consistent across the floors or just along the tiles.
I have often waited down the boards adjoining tiles to allow them set .

Red door

1chippy wrote: »

If the boards are glued down using a flooring adhesive on the backs of them, then the hollows can be raised and stuck down that way. i think you are being slightly awkward by not giving the man the chance to tighten the boards back by taking off the skirting. It is unhighly likely that it would work but you should Are give the lad the chance to fix it his way and then tell him hes wrong.
are the gaps consistent across the floors or just along the tiles.
I have often waited down the boards adjoining tiles to allow them set .

Thanks for that - I don't believe I am being awkward not allowing him to try and fix it. He had someone give him a second opinion on it himself and the decision was to lift the entire floor because of the inconsistencies right across the floor both width ways and length ways.

Apart from all that - I paid for perfect - what I received was poor and shoddy - not sure what you work at but I certainly don't have the luxury of handing up shoddy work and expecting shoddy to be acceptable. I suppose it comes down to personal pride in our own standards!

recipio

1chippy wrote: »

If the boards are glued down using a flooring adhesive on the backs of them, then the hollows can be raised and stuck down that way. i think you are being slightly awkward by not giving the man the chance to tighten the boards back by taking off the skirting. It is unhighly likely that it would work but you should Are give the lad the chance to fix it his way and then tell him hes wrong.
are the gaps consistent across the floors or just along the tiles.
I have often waited down the boards adjoining tiles to allow them set .

The glued T+G flooring is not glued down. It sits an a pvc membrane and 'floats'.For that reason the manufacturers recommend a metal saddle and gap at the doors to avoid the floor being 'pinched' However this looks ugly and I've found it uneccesary as long as you leave a 10 mm gap under the skirting boards.However the door usually then sits too high so I made my own door saddles out of Iroko.
If you replace standard 1/2" skirting with 3/4" (or say 20mm) you will then have to replace the architrave as well.
Just something to be aware of before laying new floors.

Red door

Can someone advise on long lengths and short lengths of wood and the sequencing of these in a pattern ( or not ). I have just been told that the way the floor is laid is odd as lots of short lengths have been laid next to each other !!!

recipio

Red door wrote: »

Can someone advise on long lengths and short lengths of wood and the sequencing of these in a pattern ( or not ). I have just been told that the way the floor is laid is odd as lots of short lengths have been laid next to each other !!!

Another 'no no' I'm afraid. When the boards are cut the tenon on the end is obviously gone and you are relying of the tenons of the boards on each side supporting it. The longer the boards around an end to end join , the better.
In any case, a run of short boards, butt joined together just looks all wrong.

North West

Hi Red Door
Engineering flooring can be laid straight after buying. When the flooring is laid an 14mm expansion gap is left all the perimeter of flooring and at all fixed points in floor, eg External corners and twice the diameter of copper pipe to rads. When the flooring is then laid it has to be clamped after glueing for a day until glue sets.
The gaps are a direct result of movement in floor, where the gaps are you will find there was not enough glue on boards at those points and the weakest areas due ti lack of glue have opened.
There is nothing for it but a new floor, it will not correct itself. It is essential to clamp new floor as you have until glue dries. Hence what has happened to your floor. It is the flooring contractors duty to make good his mistake. dont take any excuses he is the person who done a bad job.
I keep telling people use THE PROFESSIONAL. A good carpenter is not a good floor fitter.
NW

Tigger

North West wrote: »

Hi Red Door
Engineering flooring can be laid straight after buying. When the flooring is laid an 14mm expansion gap is left all the perimeter of flooring and at all fixed points in floor, eg External corners and twice the diameter of copper pipe to rads. When the flooring is then laid it has to be clamped after glueing for a day until glue sets.
The gaps are a direct result of movement in floor, where the gaps are you will find there was not enough glue on boards at those points and the weakest areas due ti lack of glue have opened.
There is nothing for it but a new floor, it will not correct itself. It is essential to clamp new floor as you have until glue dries. Hence what has happened to your floor. It is the flooring contractors duty to make good his mistake. dont take any excuses he is the person who done a bad job.
I keep telling people use THE PROFESSIONAL. A good carpenter is not a good floor fitter.
NW

couldn't agree more

North West

Hi Red Door
When the flooring is being laid, the flooring has to be clamped with flooring clamps to keep the flooring together while the glue is setting. Otherwise you will end up in the same situation as you started. An even distribution of glue has to be used to ensure there will be no weak points or the flooring will open again. Look in between some of the boards in an open pack and you will find the fitting instructions or google the manufacturer name and they should have a fitting instruction leaflet on there site.
NW