Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Bannasidhe

koth wrote: »

How exactly do you compare numbers of abortions between a country where it's legal and one where it's not?

That has me puzzled too - especially when the HSE have admitted they do not exactly keep any records....

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

The UK attracts women from all over the world for its no questions asked regime. Only 2/3 thirds of UK abortions done to non-residents are from this state. Secondly, Ireland's abortion rate is demonstrably far lower rate the UK. 1 in 15 compared to 1 in 5 so yes Ireland does succeed in protecting the unborn. With a better health service and less educational inequality this country could be in a really good place.

Linky to support:
a) The UK attracts women from all over the world for its no questions asked regime.
b) Only 2/3 thirds of UK abortions done to non-residents are from this state.
c) Ireland's abortion rate is demonstrably far lower rate the UK.

Please also give figures for women from Ireland who give UK addresses when seeking an abortion....

Lingua Franca

...and those that get their abortions in European countries and Turkey.

Obliq

....and the figures for those women who managed to get abortion pills through customs, bearing in mind that the actual seizure of pills by customs was huge (An IMB spokeswoman said 1,216 tablets in around 100 individual shipments were intercepted during 2009 and 2010.
Official figures for seizures in 2011 are not yet available, but they are expected to confirm the illegal trade is continuing.) and we have no way of knowing how many actually got through.

http://www.independent.ie/health/health-news/women-warned-of-dangers-from-illegal-abortion-pills-sold-online-3225551.html

Lingua Franca

There were over 1800 seizures by customs, it says "in recent years", and the figure for 2009-2010 is about 1200. I don't know if that's included.

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

....and the figures for those women who managed to get abortion pills through customs, bearing in mind that the actual seizure of pills by customs was huge (An IMB spokeswoman said 1,216 tablets in around 100 individual shipments were intercepted during 2009 and 2010.
Official figures for seizures in 2011 are not yet available, but they are expected to confirm the illegal trade is continuing.) and we have no way of knowing how many actually got through.

http://www.independent.ie/health/health-news/women-warned-of-dangers-from-illegal-abortion-pills-sold-online-3225551.html

...and the figures for the use of Misoprostol (prescribed to prevent gastric ulcers) and Arthrotec (for arthritis) both of which can be fatal as they cause hemorrhaging...

Hotblack Desiato

robp wrote: »

If you simply don't care how can anyone even achieve even a rational discussion?

Because it's totally irrelevant to our legal position in Ireland. The UK doesn't have any written constitution, never mind one which idiotically equates a grown woman with a fertilized ovum.

How, indeed, can we have a rational discussion when people keep bringing in irrelevancies?

Abortion in the UK is a serious issues for thousands of women, its nothing to be flippant about.

Did you deliberately misinterpret what I said, or just misread it? Have another read of it.

The UK is the nearest legal analogy for the Irish context.

It is NOTHING LIKE the legal position in Ireland.

Hypothetically speaking, if a fraction of the 4,000 odd women who procure abortion in the UK attempted to avail of them in Ireland under a mental health clause would we even have the infrastructure to give each one a consultation with the 2 psychiatrists and 1 obstetrician as suggested by the expert group. I wonder.

Good point. Abortion on demand it is so, if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant that should be good enough.

jackofalltrades

Here's a few quotes from the recent Anti-abortion vigil.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1204/breaking59.html

In an impassioned speech, Niamh Uí Bhrian, spokeswoman for the Life Institute, said their anti-abortion stance had not changed.

“We are not for turning and we will not yield,” she said.“We are proud to be a pro-life nation, we are here to tell the politicians in Dáil Eireann that they may have destroyed our economy but we will never let them kill our children.”

Alan Hannigan from Dublin who attended the vigil said: “I’m here because abortion is absolutely disgraceful and it shouldn't be let in to the country. It’s murder. None of us has the right to kill a child and that’s just the way it is. It’s the law of heaven.”

From trying to engage with several pro-life supporters, I've found emotive language like the above and "killing/murdering babies" to be commonly used language. It's really hard to try and discuss the issue with people when their opinions seem to be so emotional charged . And kind of contradiction of their opinions is taken very personally. Voices seem to get raised very quickly. The issue seems to be absolutely black and white to them, with no room for exceptions, sympathy or any kind of humanity.

robp

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That has me puzzled too - especially when the HSE have admitted they do not exactly keep any records....

Its interesting how you say that, as pro-choicers always stress in debates how we have abortion just like any other European country.
I know two sources of information for the abortion rate amongst Irish women. Firstly the numbers recorded in foreign clinics. Addresses and nationality are recorded. There are countries with records unavailable but they are unusually destinations for abortion like Spain. You can check out the links and see. The UK stats are all here.https://www.wp.dh.gov.uk/transparency/files/2012/05/Commentary1.pdf

The second source I know is the rate calculated by the 2010 HSE study of crisis pregnancy. http://crisispregnancy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ICCP-2010_REPORT.pdf

Both studies revealed a rate far lower then the UK. About 1 in 15 or less depending on your source once you add Irish live births.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Linky to support:
a) The UK attracts women from all over the world for its no questions asked regime.
b) Only 2/3 thirds of UK abortions done to non-residents are from this state.
c) Ireland's abortion rate is demonstrably far lower rate the UK.

Please also give figures for women from Ireland who give UK addresses when seeking an abortion....

Your just throwing that out without any evidence, not even anecdotal evidence. In this day and age women know that is no legal repercussions of giving an Irish addresses and they know lying to medical professionals about your true address is never wise. What if they have to be contacted in future. There is no incentive whatsoever to give a false address.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

...and those that get their abortions in European countries and Turkey.

If you check out the 2010 HSE study Irish Contraception and Crisis Pregnancy Study 2010: A Survey of the General Population
94% of the abortions on Irish women were carried out in the UK. A few would to the Holland but to suggest there are thousands heading to places like Austria or Sweden for abortions is a bit outlandish. And there would have to be those kind of numbers for the Irish rate to reach UK standards.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Here's a few quotes from the recent Anti-abortion vigil.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1204/breaking59.html
From trying to engage with several pro-life supporters, I've found emotive language like the above and "killing/murdering babies" to be commonly used language. It's really hard to try and discuss the issue with people when their opinions seem to be so emotional charged . And kind of contradiction of their opinions is taken very personally. Voices seem to get raised very quickly. The issue seems to be absolutely black and white to them, with no room for exceptions, sympathy or any kind of humanity.

Its also very hard to debate on forums where posters gladly resort to calling public pro-life activists vermin and scumbags.

The Black Oil

The Bishop folk are going to ramp things up...

Not surprising.

Delirium

So the "abortion rate in Ireland" is a report of known abortions performed on Irish women. Your terminology needs revising, as what you're talking about is the British number of abortions carried out on women who gave an Irish address. Unless we have abortion legally available here you can't realistically say what the true rate of abortion is as there will be women who can't travel but would have availed of an abortion if it was availble at a local hospital.

robp

koth wrote: »

So the "abortion rate in Ireland" is a report of known abortions performed on Irish women. Your terminology needs revising, as what you're talking about is the British number of abortions carried out on women who gave an Irish address. Unless we have abortion legally available here you can't realistically say what the true rate of abortion is as there will be women who can't travel but would have availed of an abortion if it was availble at a local hospital.

So the 'true' rate should include women who didn't get one? That is like saying the 'true' rate of lung cancer is higher than what is present as the high price of cigarettes prevents the true rate of lung cancer being realised. That is not how things work. There is no inherent rate anywhere. It varies in every country.

The figures I use are estimates taking into account the UK and Holland, as the numbers from countries such as Holland are not very reliable we can only get estimates.

robindch

robp wrote: »

Its also very hard to debate on forums where posters gladly resort to calling public pro-life activists vermin and scumbags.

It would also help the debate run more smoothly if, instead of complaining publicly about intemperate posts, certain posters recall that moderators have already issued public warnings about them and will take any action they deem necessary, up to and including a forum ban, in order to maintain order.

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Its interesting how you say that, as pro-choicers always stress in debates how we have abortion just like any other European country.


I know two sources of information for the abortion rate amongst Irish women. Firstly the numbers recorded in foreign clinics. Addresses and nationality are recorded. There are countries with records unavailable but they are unusually destinations for abortion like Spain. You can check out the links and see. The UK stats are all here.https://www.wp.dh.gov.uk/transparency/files/2012/05/Commentary1.pdf

The second source I know is the rate calculated by the 2010 HSE study of crisis pregnancy. http://crisispregnancy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ICCP-2010_REPORT.pdf

Both studies revealed a rate far lower then the UK. About 1 in 15 or less depending on your source once you add Irish live births.



Your just throwing that out without any evidence, not even anecdotal evidence. In this day and age women know that is no legal repercussions of giving an Irish addresses and they know lying to medical professionals about your true address is never wise. What if they have to be contacted in future. There is no incentive whatsoever to give a false address.



If you check out the 2010 HSE study Irish Contraception and Crisis Pregnancy Study 2010: A Survey of the General Population
94% of the abortions on Irish women were carried out in the UK. A few would to the Holland but to suggest there are thousands heading to places like Austria or Sweden for abortions is a bit outlandish. And there would have to be those kind of numbers for the Irish rate to reach UK standards.



.

No. No. No. ProChoice advocates say we should have the same rights to abortion - not that we already have the same. That is the point.

As for my throwing out stuff with no evidence...

Between January 1980 and December 2011, at least 150,000 women travelled from the Republic of Ireland for safe abortion services abroad.

The UK Department of Health releases statistics each year on the number of women and girls who gave Republic of Ireland addresses at abortion clinics in England and Wales. Its important to note that these numbers are an underestimation as not all women resident in the Republic of Ireland will provide their Irish address for reasons of confidentiality. Furthermore, some Irish women will give addresses in the UK at which they are not resident in order to obtain abortion care paid for by the NHS. Between 1980 - 2011, at least 152,061 women living in Ireland have travelled to England and Wales to access safe abortion services.

An increasing number of women are accessing safe and legal abortion services in EU countries other than England and Wales. According to statistics compiled by the Crisis Pregnancy Programme 1,470 women travelled from Ireland to the Netherlands from 2005-2009 to access safe abortion services.

http://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics

Delirium

robp wrote: »

So the 'true' rate should include women who didn't get one? That is like saying the 'true' rate of lung cancer is higher than what is present as the high price of cigarettes prevents the true rate of lung cancer being realised. That is not how things work. There is no inherent rate anywhere. It varies in every country.

The figures I use are estimates taking into account the UK and Holland, as the numbers from countries such as Holland are not very reliable we can only get estimates.

The data you provided is of women who had abortions in the UK. Your example of smoking would only be equivalent if the cigarettes were illegal here but legal in the UK. Of course the number of smokers would be lower here than in the UK, it's illegal!

You can't just say that Ireland has a lower rate based on the numbers of women who travel to the UK for one. All you can say is that there a sizable number of women that are able/willing to travel abroad for one.

LittleBook

robp wrote: »

Hypothetically speaking, if a fraction of the 4,000 odd women who procure abortion in the UK attempted to avail of them in Ireland under a mental health clause would we even have the infrastructure to give each one a consultation with the 2 psychiatrists and 1 obstetrician as suggested by the expert group. I wonder.

If we have the infrastructure to support a woman through nine months of pregnancy and a delivery, surely we have the infrastructure to support the same woman through an abortion procedure.

Bannasidhe

Some stats that pro-lifers would like to ignore:

Number of under 16 year old who had abortions in the UK and gave an Irish address 2002-2010 = 413.

Number of 15 year olds who had abortions in the UK and gave an Irish address 1991-2001 = 246

Number of under 15 year olds who had abortions in the UK and gave an Irish address 1991-2001 = 90.

Total = 749 girls whom Mother Ireland would have forced to be mothers. They could not legally have sex, drive, vote and in some cases leave school but Ireland says they have the wherewithal to be mother's just because they have the physical capacity to be mothers.

So much for the rights of children...:mad:

http://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics

Sarky

When you put it like that, it does seem quite messed up. Sort yourselves out, pro life!

robp

LittleBook wrote: »

If we have the infrastructure to support a woman through nine months of pregnancy and a delivery, surely we have the infrastructure to support the same woman through an abortion procedure.

Well if the recommendations of the expert review group were followed it might be a problem. A consultation with two psychiatrist and an obstetrician for every case wouldn't be small feat. My personal suspicions about this were reinforced when I read this today.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/05/gaelsceal-abortion-for-threat-of-suicide-will-be-logistical-nightmare-for-psychiatrists/

Príomhscéal Ghaelscéal na seachtaine seo ná go bhfuil sé ráite ag Cathaoirleach an Irish Association of Suicideology (IAS) go gcothóidh reachtaíocht bunaithe ar Chás X ‘olldeacracht lóistíochúil’ do shíciatraithe.
Tá sé ina raic i bhFine Gael faoin moladh go gcuirfí reachtaíocht i bhfeidhm a cheadódh do bhean ginmhilleadh a fháil má bhíonn a saol i mbaol de bharr bagairt a dhéanamh go bhfuil sí féinmharfach. De réir an Dr Justin Brophy, síciatraí comhairleach le Seirbhís Mheabhairshláinte Chill Mhantáin, beidh sé thar a bheith deacair ar shíciatraithe breithiúnas a dhéanamh an bhfuil duine éigin féinmharfach i ndáiríre nó nach bhfuil. Gaelscéal na seachtaine seo

Pro-life campaigners and some Fine Gael backbenchers are concerned that allowing women to have an abortion if her life is at risk due to the threat of suicide will open the doors to ‘abortion on demand’ in the Republic.
The Chairman of the Irish Association of Suicideology has told Gaelscéal that legislation based on the X Case will create a ‘logistical nightmare’ for psychiatrists.
Dr Justin Brophy says that suicidal intent is an ‘easily fabricated’ condition. Psychiatrists can prove that a woman is suicidal based on her stated symptoms, but it is very difficult for them to prove that a woman who says she is not suicidal is not, nor is it their job to do so, he says.
Medical judgements can be wrong and psychiatrists will be on a “hiding to nothing” if asked to adjudicate in these cases according to Dr. Brophy.
He added that there would also be public outrage if a pregnant woman took her own life after a being refused an abortion based on a psychiatrists view that she was not suicidal.

TwoShedsJackson

Wasn't society supposed to crumble about our ears when contraception became widely available? Then I believe the apocalypse was nigh because divorce was going to be introduced? And yet here we still are, with probably nary a condom bought, or a divorce had, without it being a decision made by a reasonably rational human being.

The lack of respect that anti-abortion campaigners, and indeed the Church in general, have for the ability of Joe or Jane Public to make up their own minds on an issue when a choice is available to them, makes me feel ill.

ShooterSF

robp wrote: »

Well if the recommendations of the expert review group were followed it might be a problem. A consultation with two psychiatrist and an obstetrician for every case wouldn't be small feat. My personal suspicions about this were reinforced when I read this today.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/05/gaelsceal-abortion-for-threat-of-suicide-will-be-logistical-nightmare-for-psychiatrists/

Well given that women have a constitutional right to seek abortion if they are suicidal (one protected by the people in a referendum no less) how would you suggest the state handles it?

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Well if the recommendations of the expert review group were followed it might be a problem. A consultation with two psychiatrist and an obstetrician for every case wouldn't be small feat. My personal suspicions about this were reinforced when I read this today.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/05/gaelsceal-abortion-for-threat-of-suicide-will-be-logistical-nightmare-for-psychiatrists/

'May'/ 'Might'/ 'Could' = scaremongering.

You would prefer those 749 girls under the age of 16 who had abortions between 1990 and 2010 would have been mothers while still children themselves?

Would you like to speculate how many would have taken their own lives rather than face that?

I'll say it again - I hear a lot about protecting the unborn from pro-lifers but seen little evidence of their willingness to protect female children once they attain the physical capacity to get pregnant.

robp

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'May'/ 'Might'/ 'Could' = scaremongering.

You would prefer those 749 girls under the age of 16 who had abortions between 1990 and 2010 would have been mothers while still children themselves?

Would you like to speculate how many would have taken their own lives rather than face that?

I'll say it again - I hear a lot about protecting the unborn from pro-lifers but seen little evidence of their willingness to protect female children once they attain the physical capacity to get pregnant.

Seriously, that is scare mongering. Even the pro choice psychiatrists would opine that genuine cases would be extremely rare. In the Frontline debate they were talking about an event (if it exists) which might be once in ten years. Suicide is not so simplistic. If it was it would show up in the studies. No one is forcing anyone to be mothers. Adoption is there.

It is the state's job to protect the unborn and the state's job to protect born children and adults. I would gladly support higher taxes for that purpose. Now you are going to prejudge my posts based on my verb selection. Cheers for that.

ShooterSF

robp wrote: »

Seriously, that is scare mongering. Even the pro choice psychiatrists would opine that genuine cases would be extremely rare. In the Frontline debate they were talking about an event (if it exists) which might be once in ten years. Suicide is not so simplistic. If it was it would show up in the studies. No one is forcing anyone to be mothers. Adoption is there.

It is the state's job to protect the unborn and the state's job to protect born children and adults. I would gladly support higher taxes for that purpose. Now you are going to prejudge my posts based on my verb selection. Cheers for that.

And it's the states job to grant a woman an abortion if she is suicidal as per our constitution. Again how would you legislate for that?

Delirium

robp wrote: »

Seriously, that is scare mongering. Even the pro choice psychiatrists would opine that genuine cases would be extremely rare. In the Frontline debate they were talking about an event (if it exists) which might be once in ten years. Suicide is not so simplistic. If it was it would show up in the studies. No one is forcing anyone to be mothers. Adoption is there.

It is the state's job to protect the unborn and the state's job to protect born children and adults. I would gladly support higher taxes for that purpose. Now you are going to prejudge my posts based on my verb selection. Cheers for that.

By not allowing woment to have an abortion and making them carry an unwanted pregancy to term, women are being forced to be mothers.

Lingua Franca

robp wrote: »

Your just throwing that out without any evidence, not even anecdotal evidence. In this day and age women know that is no legal repercussions of giving an Irish addresses and they know lying to medical professionals about your true address is never wise. What if they have to be contacted in future. There is no incentive whatsoever to give a false address.

...except for price. Northern Irish women often give UK addresses to get abortions on the NHS, and women from the south with relatives living in the UK do so too.

robp wrote: »

If you check out the 2010 HSE study Irish Contraception and Crisis Pregnancy Study 2010: A Survey of the General Population
94% of the abortions on Irish women were carried out in the UK. A few would to the Holland but to suggest there are thousands heading to places like Austria or Sweden for abortions is a bit outlandish. And there would have to be those kind of numbers for the Irish rate to reach UK standards.

I did check it out, and thank you for pointing me to it (genuinely, I'm going to read the whole thing over a cup of tea in a bit) but that's not quite what it says. It says that it discounted Irish women who were living abroad at the time of their abortions for the purposes of finding out who was travelling. The others are still Irish women having abortions abroad, or not protecting their unborn if you prefer. They're just not travelling directly from Ireland to do it. I can't c&p from a PDF file so I took a screenshot and attached it to this post instead.

I brought this up because out of the Irish women I know that have had abortions, two were students in the UK at the time and were able to get them on the NHS, one used her cousins address to get one on the NHS, two were working in Europe at the time and one went to Turkey, of all places, to get one. To my knowledge I know less women who travelled to the UK, gave an Irish address and paid for their abortions and thus would be on the official UK stats.


Edit: Sorry for flogging a dead horse, I got distracted by reading that study and didn't check to see if anyone had already refuted this.

Lingua Franca

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Wasn't society supposed to crumble about our ears when contraception became widely available? Then I believe the apocalypse was nigh because divorce was going to be introduced? And yet here we still are, with probably nary a condom bought, or a divorce had, without it being a decision made by a reasonably rational human being.

The lack of respect that anti-abortion campaigners, and indeed the Church in general, have for the ability of Joe or Jane Public to make up their own minds on an issue when a choice is available to them, makes me feel ill.

Speak for yourself, I'm certainly wife swapping and sodomising all round me.

Lingua Franca

robp wrote: »

Seriously, that is scare mongering. Even the pro choice psychiatrists would opine that genuine cases would be extremely rare. In the Frontline debate they were talking about an event (if it exists) which might be once in ten years. Suicide is not so simplistic. If it was it would show up in the studies. No one is forcing anyone to be mothers. Adoption is there.

Two of the women took their own lives while six died directly as a result of the complications of their pregnancy.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rate-of-maternal-deaths-here-is-double-official-figure-3305353.html

It wasn't showing up in the maternal death statistics because it wasn't being reported as such.

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Seriously, that is scare mongering. Even the pro choice psychiatrists would opine that genuine cases would be extremely rare. In the Frontline debate they were talking about an event (if it exists) which might be once in ten years. Suicide is not so simplistic. If it was it would show up in the studies. No one is forcing anyone to be mothers. Adoption is there.

It is the state's job to protect the unborn and the state's job to protect born children and adults. I would gladly support higher taxes for that purpose. Now you are going to prejudge my posts based on my verb selection. Cheers for that.

No it is not scaremongering. We had these arguments 20 years ago. We heard the bluff and bluster and the collapse of society nonsense and te Irish people decided the threat of suicide is an acceptable reason.

It is the stated will of the Irish electorate.

Now saying 'if' we legislate for X = Abortion on demand is scaremongering which is what you lot are doing.

Ye just don't get it do ye. The Irish people instructed government to legislate on this 20 years ago - despite repeated attempts to get the Irish electorate to change it's mind they have remained firm.

Blocking legislation arising out of the X referendum is an anti-democratic suppression of the will of the people and nothing less than an attempt to highjack the State to suit a particular ideology.

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

No one is forcing anyone to be mothers.

Are you for real?

Do you have any idea of the physical and mental cost of being pregnant or do you think it's all sunshine and lollypops and a stork pops a wee baby under a cabbage leaf?

It is vomiting and discomfort and skin stretching to capacity and hormones going crazy and constant need to urinate for 9 months - and then it gets to the fun part of agony and skin ripping as something the size of a honeydew melon is forced through an opening the size of a tennis ball by unstoppable physical forces that rack the woman's body.
Women still die in childbirth.
Women suffer agony during childbirth akin to having a heart attack. Imagine having a heart attack for 36 hours - now tell a 14 year old she has to do that but then can just put the baby up for adoption and move on with her life.

The more I read of what you have to say rob the more horrified I become at the sheer lack of empathy, sympathy or human compassion you are expressing.