Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

loveisdivine

Perhaps robp should have a look at some Perineal Tears - http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaginal-tears/PR00143 - Then you might realise how horrific pregnancy and childbirth really is.

What some pro lifers dont get is that women that dont want children also dont want to be pregnant. We dont want to put ourselves through the mental and most of all physical torture of pregnancy and childbirth.
So that tired old "just give it up for adoption" nonsense is irrelavent. Plus I dont want too add to the population.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

robp wrote: »

Seriously, that is scare mongering. Even the pro choice psychiatrists would opine that genuine cases would be extremely rare.

This is true.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Irish people instructed government to legislate on this 20 years ago - despite repeated attempts to get the Irish electorate to change it's mind they have remained firm.
Blocking legislation arising out of the X referendum is an anti-democratic suppression of the will of the people and nothing less than an attempt to highjack the State to suit a particular ideology.

This is also true. Whatever limitations there might be, whatever incoherences that legislation will need to provide for, there is an obligation on Government to publish a Bill that sets out the present position. Sight of the Bill might generate debate, when we see what it amounts to. But, at the very least, Government should put forward a concrete proposal.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Women suffer agony during childbirth akin to having a heart attack. Imagine having a heart attack for 36 hours....

Jaysus, you'd wonder how there ever got to be seven billion people in the world; that's seven billion 36 hour heart attacks.

All I can think of is that moment in Men Behaving Badly were Gary observes "if men had babies, you'd take a couple of aspirin afterwards and be back in work after lunch". Seriously, down out of that tree.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

All I can think of is that moment in Men Behaving Badly were Gary observes "if men had babies, you'd take a couple of aspirin afterwards and be back in work after lunch". Seriously, down out of that tree.

Really - would an aspirin have taken care of the diabetes I developed, the 36 stitches from my anus to to my vagina and helped me recover from 36 hours of labour? What a wonder drug aspirin is - pity I'm allergic to it.

I would be more likely to say If men got pregnant:

Maternity leave would last for two years with full pay.

There'd be a cure for stretch marks.

Natural childbirth would become obsolete.

Morning sickness would rank as the nation's number one health problem.

All methods of birth control would be improved to 100 percent effectiveness.

Children would be kept in the hospital until they were toilet trained.

Men would be eager to talk about commitment.

They wouldn't think twins were quite so cute.

Fathers would demand that their sons be home from dates by 10:00pm.

Men could use their briefcases as diaper bags.

They'd have to stop saying, "I'm afraid I'll drop him".

Paternity suits would be a line of clothes.

They'd stay in bed for the entire nine months.

Menus at most restaurants would list ice cream and pickles as an entree.

Abortion on demand would be freely available.

Women would rule the world!

pauldla

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Jaysus, you'd wonder how there ever got to be seven billion people in the world; that's seven billion 36 hour heart attacks.

All I can think of is that moment in Men Behaving Badly were Gary observes "if men had babies, you'd take a couple of aspirin afterwards and be back in work after lunch". Seriously, down out of that tree.

WTF? We are reduced to quoting 'Men Behaving Badly' as an authority on the pain of childbirth?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Really - would an aspirin have taken care of the diabetes I developed, the 36 stitches from my anus to to my vagina and helped me recover from 36 hours of labour? What a wonder drug aspirin is - pity I'm allergic to it.

But when you can go through all that, and still be so stoical, it's actually inspirational for the rest of us.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Women would rule the world!

You mean they don't? I mean, we thought you liked all that pregnancy bullshít; in fairness, ye don't need too much encouragement to go on about it at length.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

But when you can go through all that, and still be so stoical, it's actually inspirational for the rest of us.You mean they don't? I mean, we thought you liked all that pregnancy bullshít; in fairness, ye don't need too much encouragement to go on about it at length.

Some do. Some don't. Some would rather die than be pregnant.

We 'go on about it' because some people seem to think it's nothing more than an 'inconvenience'. Such ignorance deserves to be challenged. Plus - given that this thread is about women and girls wanting the right not to continue with a pregnancy if they don't want it it is relevant to the topic under discussion. You would prefer we discussed knitting?

Sarky

Somehow I saw a detailed video of a woman giving birth when I was a child, probably sick and home from school, and watching too many BBC educational tv or something. Can't remember when exactly it was, but I was still young enough not to realise there were any particular differences between men and women (and no, it was well before my teens, you funny bastards).

It. Terrified. The. BEJAYSUS out of me. I immediately ran to my mother and stated very clearly that under no circumstances did I ever wish to have a baby. I wish I could remember her full reaction. All that sticks with me is her huge sense of amusement at my distress.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Somehow I saw a detailed video of a woman giving birth when I was a child, probably sick and home from school, and watching too many BBC educational tv or something. Can't remember when exactly it was, but I was still young enough not to realise there were any particular differences between men and women (and no, it was well before my teens, you funny bastards).

It. Terrified. The. BEJAYSUS out of me. I immediately ran to my mother and stated very clearly that under no circumstances did I ever wish to have a baby. I wish I could remember her full reaction. All that sticks with me is her huge sense of amusement at my distress.

I have experienced the joys of kidney stones, a snapped Achilles tendon, gall stones, chemotherapy and radiotherapy twice and my liver being 'digested' by bile when the clip moved after my gall bladder was removed. If given a choice between experiencing all of those again OR childbirth again the only one that would make me pause for a second is the dissolving liver (gosh but that hurt!) and I still would have only one child as there is no ****ing way I would do that again.

Sarky

srsly, I think it's why Aliens still creeps me out as much as it does.

robp

Lingua Franca wrote: »

...except for price. Northern Irish women often give UK addresses to get abortions on the NHS, and women from the south with relatives living in the UK do so too.

I did check it out, and thank you for pointing me to it (genuinely, I'm going to read the whole thing over a cup of tea in a bit) but that's not quite what it says. It says that it discounted Irish women who were living abroad at the time of their abortions for the purposes of finding out who was travelling. The others are still Irish women having abortions abroad, or not protecting their unborn if you prefer. They're just not travelling directly from Ireland to do it. I can't c&p from a PDF file so I took a screenshot and attached it to this post instead.

I brought this up because out of the Irish women I know that have had abortions, two were students in the UK at the time and were able to get them on the NHS, one used her cousins address to get one on the NHS, two were working in Europe at the time and one went to Turkey, of all places, to get one. To my knowledge I know less women who travelled to the UK, gave an Irish address and paid for their abortions and thus would be on the official UK stats.

Edit: Sorry for flogging a dead horse, I got distracted by reading that study and didn't check to see if anyone had already refuted this.

If a Irish women is living in the UK as a student or for any other purpose she is no longer in the Irish population. She is a resident of the UK and can only be considered as such. Its is bizarre to suggest the figure should be compiled in other way. Statistics aren't collected that way. Irish DNA is not important, residency is.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No it is not scaremongering. We had these arguments 20 years ago. We heard the bluff and bluster and the collapse of society nonsense and te Irish people decided the threat of suicide is an acceptable reason.

It is the stated will of the Irish electorate.

Now saying 'if' we legislate for X = Abortion on demand is scaremongering which is what you lot are doing.

Ye just don't get it do ye. The Irish people instructed government to legislate on this 20 years ago - despite repeated attempts to get the Irish electorate to change it's mind they have remained firm.

Blocking legislation arising out of the X referendum is an anti-democratic suppression of the will of the people and nothing less than an attempt to highjack the State to suit a particular ideology.

The problem with a no votes that it means a lot less than a yes vote. People vote for different reasons. The Nice and Lisbon treaties verified that. Some of the most major prolife figures in 1992 and 2002 urged for a no vote.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Abortion on demand would be freely available.

Women would rule the world!

If I try to put myself in the frame of mind of a extremely misogynist man I am sure I would be utterly pro choice. Its such an easy option for a good-for-nothing man to shy away from responsibility.

ShooterSF

@robp

Any chance of a response? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82108080&postcount=2995

Lingua Franca

robp wrote: »

If a Irish women is living in the UK as a student or for any other purpose she is no longer in the Irish population. She is a resident of the UK and can only be considered as such. Its is bizarre to suggest the figure should be compiled in other way. Statistics aren't collected that way. Irish DNA is not important, residency is.

This is deliberately obtuse.

You made this assertion:

robp wrote: »

Ireland's abortion rate is demonstrably far lower rate the UK. 1 in 15 compared to 1 in 5 so yes Ireland does succeed in protecting the unborn.

We all know that you never read the links provided to you but it's actually quite funny to learn that you don't even read your own!

I strongly suggest that you go back and take a look at the screenshot I posted.


The paper you directed me to said it asked women resident in Ireland about their abortions to find out how many had had them. Then it asked women where they were living when they had their abortions to find out how many had to travel to obtain one. From that they were able to obtain a figure for just the women who had travelled from Ireland to the UK and other countries with the specific intention of obtaining an abortion. That is all that 94% figure that you quoted was about, the women who had to pack their bags and catch a plane or ferry and pay for their abortions. It does not include all of the women studying, working and living abroad who had abortions and came back.

And from this, this pared down figure that they say is pared in the report you yourself were directing me to, from this you obtain your 1 in 15 abortion rate figure that Ireland should be patting themselves on the back about because less women here have had abortions than in the UK.

Somehow studying and working abroad for a few years makes you not Irish any more, even when you return?

They are still Irish women who have had abortions abroad, just the same as the other Irish women who had to have abortions abroad.

Irish women have abortions, and it's more than 1 in 15 of them.

How the hell do you extrapolate "Ireland does succeed in protecting the unborn" from that?

Stupify

robp wrote: »

If I try to put myself in the frame of mind of a extremely misogynist man I am sure I would be utterly pro choice. Its such an easy option for a good-for-nothing man to shy away from responsibility.

I don't think you understand the meaning of misogynist. it's someone who hates women, not someone who shirks from responsibility.

Link: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogynistic

lazygal

I'm not sure if I posted on this thread or another about the old 'just give it up for adoption, simples' solution.

I wanted a baby. So we got pregnant. Which resulted in the following:
-Four months of vomiting and nausea, all day and night, with another few months of feeling queasy pretty much all day, then a fun return to actual vomiting in my final trimester.
-An abnormal placental position, which meant we were told to not have sex until we got the all clear on a week to week basis. Not good for any relationship. Also restricted me physically and was stressful because it would have affected me if anything went wrong.
-An abnormal foetal position in the final trimester, which meant I was at a high risk of serious damage to baby and me if I went into labour naturally. So I had to have a c-section (for those who mightn't know its major abdominal surgery and there are infection and other risks involved - its not a walk in the park). Fun after care involves having diffene pessaries shoved up your backside a few times.
-Following on from that, I had a six week period of being extremely restricted in terms of driving, getting out and about, meeting friends/family and have a nice red scar to remind me of this.
Let's add in the random not so 'serious' bits of being on iron for nine months, which means I was constipated for pretty much the entire pregnancy and for six weeks after, the fact I got UTIs because of pregnancy, the thrush, the coughs and colds you can't take anything for because it can harm the baby, the waking up to five times a night to pee and the fact I'm still out of shape months on because pregnancy takes a pretty big emotional and physical toll. Also the filling of your breasts with milk, the possibility of mastitus and the risk of post natal depression because of all the mad hormones you've had in you for nine months.


Now, I went through all that because I wanted a baby. Can anyone give me a justifiable reason for making a 14 year old suicidal rape victim go through ANY of the above?

Sarky

lazygal wrote: »

Now, I went through all that because I wanted a baby. Can anyone give me a justifiable reason for making a 14 year old suicidal rape victim go through ANY of the above?

Being a religious sociopath with a fetish for seeing women in immense physical and psychological pain?

That's about all I can think of anyway.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Some do. Some don't. Some would rather die than be pregnant.

Oh, gawd, the tragedy of it all.

Sarky wrote: »

srsly, I think it's why Aliens still creeps me out as much as it does.

And it's not at all strange for you to see a connection. I think you also need to be alert to the dangers of being impregnated by Satan. There's a health information film called "Rosemary's Baby" that will equip you with the skills needed to handle that risk.

lazygal wrote: »

Can anyone give me a justifiable reason for making a 14 year old suicidal rape victim go through ANY of the above?

Again, this is over-egging the pudding; in particular, by throwing in the "suicidal" bit as if drama makes for a convincing case.

If someone's too young to give informed consent, then there's no particular reason to expect her to proceed with a pregnancy. Possibly, a fourteen year old should be compelled to abort on grounds that she is simply not competent to decide for herself what to do, regardless of her own preference.

The suicide argument is an "angels on the head of a pin" argument. It should be greeted with a "yeah, yeah, whatever, can we move on to something that's actually germaine to the issue."

lazygal

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The suicide argument is an "angels on the head of a pin" argument. It should be greeted with a "yeah, yeah, whatever, can we move on to something that's actually germaine to the issue."

Your lack of empathy is staggering.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

lazygal wrote: »

Your lack of empathy is staggering.

Pandering to delusion is not empathy.

And ridiculing someone for equating pregnancy to an alien parasite eating its way out of John Hurt's abdomen is apt; this thread is suffering from a massively oppressive dose of groupthink.

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

...........

All I can think of is that moment in Men Behaving Badly were Gary observes "if men had babies, you'd take a couple of aspirin afterwards and be back in work after lunch". Seriously, down out of that tree.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote:

You mean they don't? I mean, we thought you liked all that pregnancy bullshít; in fairness, ye don't need too much encouragement to go on about it at length.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

...........
Oh, gawd, the tragedy of it all.

...is the sneering really nessecary?

Sarky

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

And it's not at all strange for you to see a connection. I think you also need to be alert to the dangers of being impregnated by Satan. There's a health information film called "Rosemary's Baby" that will equip you with the skills needed to handle that risk. Again, this is over-egging the pudding; in particular, by throwing in the "suicidal" bit as if drama makes for a convincing case.

Now you're just being silly. Stop that.

recedite

Zombrex wrote: »

That works under the assumption that something termed a "foetus" is just an object, but if we call it a "baby" then it isn't. I would hope that most people are not so biologically illiterate.

"unborn child" is a correct legal terminology though.

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

I'm not sure if I posted on this thread or another about the old 'just give it up for adoption, simples' solution.

I wanted a baby. So we got pregnant. Which resulted in the following:
-Four months of vomiting and nausea, all day and night, with another few months of feeling queasy pretty much all day, then a fun return to actual vomiting in my final trimester.
-An abnormal placental position, which meant we were told to not have sex until we got the all clear on a week to week basis. Not good for any relationship. Also restricted me physically and was stressful because it would have affected me if anything went wrong.
-An abnormal foetal position in the final trimester, which meant I was at a high risk of serious damage to baby and me if I went into labour naturally. So I had to have a c-section (for those who mightn't know its major abdominal surgery and there are infection and other risks involved - its not a walk in the park). Fun after care involves having diffene pessaries shoved up your backside a few times.
-Following on from that, I had a six week period of being extremely restricted in terms of driving, getting out and about, meeting friends/family and have a nice red scar to remind me of this.
Let's add in the random not so 'serious' bits of being on iron for nine months, which means I was constipated for pretty much the entire pregnancy and for six weeks after, the fact I got UTIs because of pregnancy, the thrush, the coughs and colds you can't take anything for because it can harm the baby, the waking up to five times a night to pee and the fact I'm still out of shape months on because pregnancy takes a pretty big emotional and physical toll. Also the filling of your breasts with milk, the possibility of mastitus and the risk of post natal depression because of all the mad hormones you've had in you for nine months.


Now, I went through all that because I wanted a baby. Can anyone give me a justifiable reason for making a 14 year old suicidal rape victim go through ANY of the above?

Would you say you were inconvenienced
a) Not really.
b)slightly.
c) Yes.
d) WTF???

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Nodin wrote: »

...is the sneering really nessecary?

Probably; it's a valid response to pomposity.

Sarky wrote: »

Now you're just being silly. Stop that.

Nodin

lazygal wrote: »

...........
-Four months of vomiting and nausea, all day and night, ......... fun return to actual vomiting in my final trimester.
-An abnormal placental position,......... told to not have sex until we got the all clear on a week to week basis............-An abnormal foetal position in the final trimester, ......... c-section (for those who mightn't know its major abdominal surgery .........having diffene pessaries shoved up your backside a few times.
-...... have a nice red scar.......constipated for pretty much the entire pregnancy and for six weeks after, ......... I got UTIs ....... the thrush, ....... the waking up to five times a night to pee ...... the possibility of mastitus ...........

There's a video/powerpoint presentation in that, with appropriate pictures and inserts. 'The Miracle of Childbirth', ye might call it.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

There's a video/powerpoint presentation in that, with appropriate pictures and inserts. 'The Miracle of Childbirth', ye might call it.

I vote we call it 'An Inconvenient Truth' - or has that already been used?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I vote we call it 'An Inconvenient Truth' - or has that already been used?

Yes, but not in respect of anything as important as you.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Yes, but not in respect of anything as important as you.

Did I eat your cake?
Kill your granny?
Run over your kitten?
Laugh at your Xmas Jumper?

If not - what exactly is your problem?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Did I eat your cake?
Kill your granny?
Run over your kitten?
Laugh at your Xmas Jumper?

If not - what exactly is your problem?

It's nothing to do with you, however disappointing that might be. I've just always felt uncomfortable when confronted by groups of spoofers and wafflers working in unison.

Peig Sayers couldn't have produced a better account of misery. Had I known in advance half, or even one-third, of what the future had in store for me, my heart wouldn't have been as gay or as courageous it was in the beginning of my days.

robindch

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Yes, but not in respect of anything as important as you.

A Screw Loose or just Youthful Indiscretion? So Much For Subtlety, you Little Rascal. Of Course I Still Love You, but Just Read The Instructions anyway.

- Gunboat Diplomat.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

It's nothing to do with you, however disappointing that might be. I've just always felt uncomfortable when confronted by groups of spoofers and wafflers working in unison.

Peig Sayers couldn't have produced a better account of misery. Had I known in advance half, or even one-third, of what the future had in store for me, my heart wouldn't have been as gay or as courageous it was in the beginning of my days.

Perhaps you shouldn't address your snotty comments at me if they have nothing to do with me.

Sooo - all of your pregnancies went well did they?
You just popped the babbies out then went back to harvesting the hay I imagine.

Good for you. Why don't you tell all of us spoofers and wafflers about them?