Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Mark Hamill

Penn wrote: »

Mark, I understand your points and you've made them well, but at the same time I think that an important distinction needs to be made in when the foetus becomes a person. People can have sex hundreds of times taking all precautions possible, then the next time using the same precautions, the woman accidentally becomes pregnant. Yes, it's a consequence of their actions, they knew it was a risk etc, but it happened anyway and now they have to deal with it.

But if there is a way out of that, without causing any pain to a body in development (ergo not actually a person yet) which has no discernible rights, then why should that not be allowed?

Again, a key point in this debate is at what point does the fertilised egg become a person? Because in my mind, until it becomes a person, it does not have rights, and provided the abortion can be carried out in such a way that the foetus would not suffer in any measurable way, then no harm has been done.

I've actually not been trying to argue against abortion in my posts, more raising concern with some of the terminology people are using when describing the foetus (at least, that's what I've been trying to do). I do agree that the key point is largely on which point does the group of cells become a person, but I think this is better discussed without those cells being classed as an invader or without describing the situation as unfair (as opposed to unlucky). To me, calling the embryo an invader or calling the situation unfair is emotively charging the argument in the same way as calling the embryo a person or calling it a blessing from god. Both types of emotive terminology are better left out of the argument imo.

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

You dont get painkillers for abortion they hand you one measly courtesy paracetemol - its not pain medication that would suffice after going through a horribly invasive procedure..

To those thinking abortion will be 'just another procedure'.......Think again,it's not its a horrible experience,very invasive,and yes you do feel the pain of it afterwards,one just ONE paracetemol to such a procedure is not sufficient pain medication.As they are not your regular doctors they cannot prescribe to you, and the experience is even worse if you dont have a supportive partner with you,its a living nightmare,you dont get pain medication in the aftermath,and here is a link i have found on concious sedation:http://www.northlandfamilyplanning.com/pain-medication-anesthesia/ which is very VERY popular with abortion clinics in the UK,very very few do general anaestheisa,its not as cost effective,as you need a seperate, qualified anaethetist - it is a profession in itself,the abortionist him/herself cannot carry out general anaesthetic..So be warned,to be warned is to be fore armed..

So your list of 'FACTS' is looking less like a list of facts now, given that you now concede that general anaesthetic is used and pain medication given.

Also, I'm not sure where you're heading with the 'abortionists aren't qualified to give anaesthetic', other than to somehow portray these doctors as poorly qualified. Anaesthesia is a medical speciality in itself - even the most highly-regarded surgeon in the country cannot administer this if not trained to do so. It's no measure of a medic's general qualification as a doctor.

Conscious sedation is offered as a safer method of anaesthesia, given the inherent risk with a general anaesthetic.

Sin City

fisgon wrote: »

You're not being very clear with your terminology. 'Lifeform' and 'person' are two different things. A tapeworm, a bacteria, a toad, a blackbird, are all lifeforms. They are not people. I don't see what distinction you are making, if any.

If you want to address the question of when it becomes a person, I've already answered this. It's a sliding scale. A foetus is fully a person when he/she is born, at 8 and a half months he/she is viable and so, as close to personhood as makes no difference. At three months s/he is at an intermediate stage, in development. An embryo of three days has almost no elements of personhood, in my view.

This is what I mean by an inability to deal with complexity. You want a date, when before it is not a person, and after it is. That is simply not connected to the reality. The anti-abortion side have a black and white view of the issue, and this is the problem, as the issue is complex. There is no one date or stage where you can say, "now it is a person", and any attempt to define this date is simply down to personal preference or opinion.

Sorry, I mean a lifeform of human origin.

8 and a half months, babeis have been born sooner than that and have suvived , are they not people?

You go about an ability to deal with complexity but you then go on to say its all your own personal view.

Yes I admit that at the moment we cant tell when a person is there, its all opinion at the moment, but I keep saying its a proto person or potential person, the whole point seems to be lost on you

Tell me this , if at 6 months a pregnant woman is shot and the baby is lossed , is that not fetal homicide, double homicide if both die?

christmas2012

So your list of 'FACTS' is looking less like a list of facts now, given that you now concede that general anaesthetic is used and pain medication given.

Youre misunderstanding me,general anaesthetic can only be done if there is a qualifed anaethetist in the building,A LOT OF ABORTION CLINICS IN THE UK ONLY USE CONSCIOUS SEDATION.

Also, I'm not sure where you're heading with the 'abortionists aren't qualified to give anaesthetic', other than to somehow portray these doctors as poorly qualified

Abortionists arent qualified to give anaesthetic but with concious sedation they can,thats why is more popular and more cost effective.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

You dont get painkillers for abortion they hand you one measly courtesy paracetemol - its not pain medication that would suffice after going through a horribly invasive procedure..

To those thinking abortion will be 'just another procedure'.......Think again,it's not its a horrible experience,very invasive,and yes you do feel the pain of it afterwards,one just ONE paracetemol to such a procedure is not sufficient pain medication.As they are not your regular doctors they cannot prescribe to you, and the experience is even worse if you dont have a supportive partner with you,its a living nightmare,you dont get pain medication in the aftermath,and here is a link i have found on concious sedation:http://www.northlandfamilyplanning.com/pain-medication-anesthesia/ which is very VERY popular with abortion clinics in the UK,very very few do general anaestheisa,its not as cost effective,as you need a seperate, qualified anaethetist - it is a profession in itself,the abortionist him/herself cannot carry out general anaesthetic..So be warned,to be warned is to be fore armed..

I keep telling you, they do give you pain meds.. and a course of antibiotics, and a hot water bottle for your tummy, and juice and biscuits after. You have to rest for a half hour before they let you leave.

christmas2012

they give you one paracetemol and thats it - harldy pain medication that would suffice for such an invasive procedure,of course that depends if you go public or private..

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

Youre misunderstanding me,general anaesthetic can only be done if there is a qualifed anaethetist in the building,A LOT OF ABORTION CLINICS IN THE UK ONLY USE CONSCIOUS SEDATION.


Abortionists arent qualified to give anaesthetic but with concious sedation they can,thats why is more popular and more cost effective.

Then one has the choice not to use a clinic that does not provide a general anesthetic.

You stated no clinic gave a general anesthetic. You then listed a litany of horrors as if this was standard procedure which to be honest sounded more like a backstreet set=up than a registered NHS clinic and claimed this is always what happens. One of the reasons the UK legalised abortion in 1967 was to protect women from what you claim is common practice.

When women said that what you described was not their experience you accused them of lying and called them sick.

I'm afraid you are not doing your credibility any favours.

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

Youre misunderstanding me,general anaesthetic can only be done if there is a qualifed anaethetist in the building.

Nobody is disputing that. Given that most abortions are performed under general anaesthetic, it appears that it would be fairly common for a clinic or hospital unit to have an anaesthetist there.

christmas2012 wrote: »

A LOT OF ABORTION CLINICS IN THE UK ONLY USE CONSCIOUS SEDATION..

I can't find data for this but can only say that if you aren't happy with this, choose a different clinic?

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

they give you one paracetemol and thats it - harldy pain medication that would suffice for such an invasive procedure,of course that depends if you go public or private..

No, they don't.

I got a course of pain medication, a weeks worth, and a course of antibiotics. I didn't go private, and this was last year.

I really take a lot of umbridge to the non-truths you are spreading, in a place where women may read, and, even more scarily, believe.

I know you were with Youth Defence when you were younger, but did you actually go and talk to real women and ask them about their experiences? Did you question at all what they told you, or do you just read sites like womenhurt.ie and assume that is standard for everyone?

christmas2012

I got a course of pain medication, a weeks worth, and a course of antibiotics.

Thats bulls!t of the first order,i escorted a friend over to the UK,as she couldnt be on her own for the concious sedation,as the after effects can leave you woozy for half an hour and i can say most definatly all she got was ONE PILL.And it was a measly paracetemol.Cost effectiveness and profit is what these abortion clinics are about.

I really take a lot of umbridge to the non-truths you are spreading

They are not non truths its a fact that you cannot provide general anaethesia if you do not have an in house general anethetist who is fully qualified.It is more popular for abortion clinics to go the conscious sedation route,as its more cost effective,they dont give a flying sh!t about you afterwards,just hand you one paracetemol and thats that.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats bulls!t of the first order,i escorted a friend over to the UK,as she couldnt be on her own for the concious sedation,as the after effects can leave you woozy for half an hour and i can say most definatly all she got was ONE PILL.And it was a measly paracetemol.Cost effectiveness and profit is what these abortion clinics are about.

It's not bull****. It's the truth. I've been speaking very candidly for a long time on here about my experiences, and for you to come on here and tell me I'm lying is just a little bit rich coming from you.

MagicMarker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats bulls!t of the first order,i escorted a friend over to the UK,as she couldnt be on her own for the concious sedation,as the after effects can leave you woozy for half an hour and i can say most definatly all she got was ONE PILL.And it was a measly paracetemol.Cost effectiveness and profit is what these abortion clinics are about.




They are not non truths its a fact that you cannot provide general anaethesia if you do not have an in house general anethetist who is fully qualified.It is more popular for abortion clinics to go the conscious sedation route,as its more cost effective,they dont give a flying sh!t about you afterwards,just hand you one paracetemol and thats that.

So because that happened with your one friend, you can come on here and tell everyone that that happens everywhere as a matter of fact!?

christmas2012

It DID happen and i seen it first hand,also with concious sedation they say you dont remember a thing,but she remembered a few things about it she remembered a forceps like instrument opening her vagina,and a tube going in,she remembered afterwards the abortionist holding the foetus(only could see green cloth though),but still traumatic enough she said she felt some tugging,which freaked her out and she was in visible pain aftewards,the paracetemol didnt work.She DID get a hot water bottle for her tummy but it didnt alleviate the pain..

hattoncracker

MagicMarker wrote: »

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats bulls!t of the first order,i escorted a friend over to the UK,as she couldnt be on her own for the concious sedation,as the after effects can leave you woozy for half an hour and i can say most definatly all she got was ONE PILL.And it was a measly paracetemol.Cost effectiveness and profit is what these abortion clinics are about.




They are not non truths its a fact that you cannot provide general anaethesia if you do not have an in house general anethetist who is fully qualified.It is more popular for abortion clinics to go the conscious sedation route,as its more cost effective,they dont give a flying sh!t about you afterwards,just hand you one paracetemol and thats that.

So because that happened with your one friend, you can come on here and tell everyone that that happens everywhere as a matter of fact!?

It's not a fact. She's misguided, like a lot of people unfortunately.

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats bulls!t of the first order,i escorted a friend over to the UK,as she couldnt be on her own for the concious sedation,as the after effects can leave you woozy for half an hour and i can say most definatly all she got was ONE PILL.And it was a measly paracetemol.Cost effectiveness and profit is what these abortion clinics are about.

QUOTE]

Do you mind me asking how far along in the pregnancy your friend was?

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

It DID happen and i seen it first hand,also with concious sedation they say you dont remember a thing,but she remembered a few things about it she remembered a forceps like instrument opening her vagina,and a tube going in,she remembered afterwards the abortionist holding the foetus(only could see green cloth though),but still traumatic enough she said she felt some tugging,which freaked her out and she was in visible pain aftewards,the paracetemol didnt work.She DID get a hot water bottle for her tummy but it didnt alleviate the pain..

Do you think she would appreciate you spreading her personal business all over the internet just to prove a point that you are sorely misinformed on?

I know I wouldn't.

christmas2012

It was about 3 months and it was painful for her,she was in agony with me,and i was just glad i was there,and before anybody starts NO i didnt judge her.

Do you think she would appreciate you spreading her personal business all over the internet

Excuse me,where exactly did i give her name or address??

MagicMarker

christmas2012 wrote: »

It DID happen and i seen it first hand,also with concious sedation they say you dont remember a thing,but she remembered a few things about it she remembered a forceps like instrument opening her vagina,and a tube going in,she remembered afterwards the abortionist holding the foetus(only could see green cloth though),but still traumatic enough she said she felt some tugging,which freaked her out and she was in visible pain aftewards,the paracetemol didnt work.She DID get a hot water bottle for her tummy but it didnt alleviate the pain..

No one is saying it didn't happen to your friend. What we are saying is that you are wrong to tell us that that happens to EVERYONE. It clearly doesn't, as people here who have experienced it first hand have told you, but for some reason you're ignoring them.

Sonics2k

Anyone else noticed that christmas has gone from 'reading' about it, to ringing up, and now actually going there first-hand. You've gone from saying they get no pain medication to they do, no general anasthaetic to they do.

I'm sorry Christmas, but the descriptions you are giving sound like a back-alley deal and nothing like an actual clinic.

I've been googling for hours to find anything from within the UK to backup your claims and position and have found literally nothing.

christmas2012

Anyone else noticed that christmas has gone from 'reading' about it, to ringing up, and now actually going there first-hand. You've gone from saying they get no pain medication to they do, no general anasthaetic to they do.

No i didnt i said that pain medication does not suffice,and that you get ONE paracetemol pill,the risk of infection is high and yet you DO NOT get antibiotics,if you dont believe it ring them up,they only give you antibiotics off your local gp thats in whatever area you live in and its not the UK by any chance other wise you would not be getting the plane over!Only the gp you are assigned to can give you this medication,you have to wait hours and hours for it,and they ONLY GIVE (your gp) you antibiotics if the infection has set in (AND YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT),the abortion itself is painful,PAIN DOES HAPPEN FOR EVERYONE.Even if you come around after g.a(and very few clinics do this unless you go private and girls from irl are all classed as public as they have cash for it and no private healthcare compatible with the uk)..Abortion is not an easy procedure,its better to know this no matter how unfantasy like or how ideal it is..

MagicMarker

Christmas, people in this thread have told you they were given the option for GA and they did NOT go private.

Please just stop lying to us, and to yourself.

christmas2012

NOW THAT IS AN UNTRUTH.General anaesthetic can only be given by a qualified general anaethetist,nobody else,not the abortionist,this is WHY concious sedation is only popular with a lot of abortion clinics in the UK.Ring marie stopes and ask them yourself.

fatmammycat

Meh, I know a number of women who have had abortions and not one of them describes them as Christmas describes. I call shenanigans. I'm going to tell you something else too, only one of them had slight misgivings afterwards too. And I mean slight. The others were very happy to be free of unwanted pregnancies.

hattoncracker

Christmas, I will not argue with you on the fact that it is unpleasant. But it's the aftermath that counts..Not many medical procedures are, but I have no regrets and that is the question that you would need to ask her, does she have regrets? Negative feelings? If yes, Do you think those would have been helped if she had been able to avail of proper counselling in Ireland?

christmas2012

Abortion counselling in the clinic was not offered,but there are abortion aftermath counselling clinics in ireland that she could avail of.

MagicMarker

christmas2012 wrote: »

NOW THAT IS AN UNTRUTH.General anaesthetic can only be given by a qualified general anaethetist,nobody else,not the abortionist,this is WHY concious sedation is only popular with a lot of abortion clinics in the UK.Ring marie stopes and ask them yourself.

This MarieStopes?

http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/Womens_services/Abortion/Abortion_FAQ.aspx

Will I have an anaesthetic with abortion?
In the early stages of abortion it is possible to have a choice of anaesthetic. Sometimes a general anaesthetic (where you are asleep) is not necessary with early abortion, but you will have a choice. There are health risks associated with general anaesthetic particularly if you are overweight, suffer from any heart condition, or have asthma and if you choose not to have an anaesthetic you will recover more quickly from your abortion. Marie Stopes International offers all options - medical abortion (abortion pill) or surgical abortion with no anaesthetic, sedation or general anaesthetic.

So Christmas, is your own source lying?

hattoncracker

You definitely do get antibiotics, I still have the box from mine for my medical records..

Maybe they didn't give them out in the clinic she went to? Or maybe it was a long time ago and things have changed?

christmas2012

Marie Stopes International offers all options - medical abortion (abortion pill) or surgical abortion with no anaesthetic, sedation or general anaesthetic.

Most of them offer (and i do know this) concious sedation,not general anaesthetic like you describe.

So Christmas, is your own source lying?

AND NO,there not lying whatsoever i was there with them they got concious sedation,and were in agony aftewards as it was a horribly invasive procedure.

BTW,for the abortion pill ,they can only do that at the first few weeks,if it goes a month they have to do an abortion.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Abortion counselling in the clinic was not offered,but there are abortion aftermath counselling clinics in ireland that she could avail of.

Women these days are offered counselling. If they live in rural Ireland they can have It over the phone. U email them and they will call you at an organised time.

MagicMarker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Most of them offer (and i do know this) concious sedation,not general anaesthetic like you describe.

Are you serious? Did you see the website I linked to? It was mariestopes, the people you told us to call to confirm your assertion that they don't/rarely use GA.

According to mariestopes, you are wrong.