Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

lazygal

Nodin wrote: »

'but we had no idea back then...' etc and so on.

Sure it was just friendship that went a bit far.

eyescreamcone

lazygal wrote: »

Sure it was just friendship that went a bit far.

"Shur they're not all bad..."

The Black Oil

More videos here - ABCandX.

They're well organised in getting their views across and are not green when it comes to social media, but ya know, I'm sure we'll still hear the 'we're so oppressed' routine.

Flier

Wow - 'culture of death' - I'm nearly on my knees myself 'praying for Ireland'. And the lovely music and scenic shots are great. Sure we'd really have a great country if it wasn't for those abortionist and all....

PopePalpatine

UDP wrote: »

Fair play to Pat Rabbitte for yet again telling the RCC to stop dictating to the government. It must be frustrating for the bishops etc to not have as much power over the irish government that they had in the past. I still think they have too much influence but great to see it waning.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1219/abortion.html

The image I have right now of the Catholic hierarchy is akin to that of Emperor Palpatine falling down that long shaft in "Return of the Jedi", still shooting lightning bolts.

fitz0

EWTN have released an advertisement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O17hbfowvhw

Looks like they've got all the 'big' names out to speak.

There's some great lines such as

Ireland's health service is the envy of the world

and

You know this battle can only be won if we are on our knees

Powerful stuff.

mikom

fitz0 wrote: »

EWTN have released an advertisement.



Looks like they've got all the 'big' names out to speak.

There's some great lines such as

and


Powerful stuff.

I await the lockdown of the comments section.

The Black Oil

'Ireland's health service is the envy of the world'

Tell that to Orla Tinsley.

Mark Hamill

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, that’s a very pejorative way of putting it.

Well thats the way GCU put it.

The rest of your post misses my point. I'm not saying its impossible that some women somewhere could claim to be suicidal to try to get an abortion, I'm questioning the assumption that these women could merely need to walk up to a clinic, say "I'm suicidal, give me an abortion", get it without evaluation, and then disappear into the wind. Even if someone is genuinely suicidal because they are pregnant, giving them an abortion is not going to make the picture of mental health. There is going to be evaluations before and after.

The thing about your example of health risks being used to get abortions in the uk, is that health risks are just that - risks. They are things that could happen, so a single doctor could declare a healthy pregnant woman in risk of something in the one time s/he sees her. Suicidal tendencies are symptoms of an ongoing mental issue, that will require synchronous and ongoing treatment, so fraudsters will be easier to catch.

All that aside, I fail to see why some women possible faking suicidal tendencies for abortion means no women should get abortions if they are genuinely suicidal. People try to defraud doctors and hospitals out of drugs all the time, this doesn't mean we don't let anyone have drugs, ever.

Mark Hamill

eviltwin wrote: »

I heard a woman from the Iona Institute on the radio last night saying exactly what Lazygal said, women will lie and exploit suicide to get an abortion.

Does it not occur to these people that maybe the type of person who pretends to be suicidal to get what they want is not the type of person who should be having kids?

mikom

mikom wrote: »

I await the lockdown of the comments section.

Comments are now disabled for this video.

You don't even get the "choice" to comment or not.

Hotblack Desiato

The Black Oil wrote: »

'Ireland's health service is the envy of the world'

Tell that to Orla Tinsley.

Or Praveen Halappanavar.

aloyisious

fitz0 wrote: »

EWTN have released an advertisement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O17hbfowvhw

Looks like they've got all the 'big' names out to speak.

There's some great lines such as

and


Powerful stuff.

Pure lives

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm not saying its impossible that some women somewhere could claim to be suicidal to try to get an abortion, I'm questioning the assumption that these women could merely need to walk up to a clinic, say "I'm suicidal, give me an abortion", get it without evaluation, and then disappear into the wind.

I think you need to reflect on the significance of the empty 'health risks' process in the UK.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

All that aside, I fail to see why some women possible faking suicidal tendencies for abortion means no women should get abortions if they are genuinely suicidal.

Two points.

For my part, I haven't particularly said that the possibility of abortion on mental health grounds shouldn't be legislated for. I'm simply acknowledging that the legislation will be abused. If people want to claim the moral high ground, they need to display integrity by acknowledging plain realities.

Also, bone fide cases where abortion will be a solution that avoids suicide will be rare as hens teeth. The real incredulity should be expressed at the apparent assumption that the cure for mental illness is to facilitate whatever demands a person makes while mentally ill.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Does it not occur to these people that maybe the type of person who pretends to be suicidal to get what they want is not the type of person who should be having kids?

Yeah I can't understand why the whole eugenics argument for abortion has fallen out of fashion. I mean, Marie Stopes wasn't slow about frankly stating the need to prevent the unfit from reproducing.

goodie2shoes

yes the loons from both extremes of the "debate" are coming outta the woodwork and making exhibitions of themselves.

Banbh

I pretend to have toothache just to get the dentist to drill my teeth.

Obliq

lazygal wrote: »

Or now, seeing as he doesn't want to resign. Moral authority my fanny.

My fanny definitely has more moral authority than his

Flier

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

... The real incredulity should be expressed at the apparent assumption that the cure for mental illness is to facilitate whatever demands a person makes while mentally ill.

GCU, I get your point re the possibility of people 'faking' suicidal ideation in order to get an abortion, if there is no other way available to them.
Having said that, it might just be easier to go to the UK.
Firstly regarding them having their procedure and then disappearing. Doctors have a duty of care to their patients, and that extends beyond their own specialty. If a woman tells her obstetrian that she is suicidal, then they will at least have to refer her on to someone qualified for treatment. Weather she takes up the referral is up to her.
Secondly, noone thinks the cure for mental illness is an abortion. But if the woman is suicidal because she is pregnant, then is it not reasonable to think that she would not be suicidal if she was not pregnant.

loveisdivine

What about situations where the woman becomes a threat to the foetus?
I mean if I were pregnant and I couldn't go to the UK and I couldn't get an abortion here because I'm not legitimately suicidal. I can honestly say I would consider taking things into my own hands.

I wouldn't be suicidal because I love my life, which is why I wouldn't want a baby. I would see the foetus as a threat to my happiness and sanity. Frankly I see it as a parasite.

Would the pro life lobby rather I had a safe abortion, or throw myself down the stairs?

Or am I supposed to just put up and shut up? Dump the baby at the Youth Defence headquarters afterwards.

Mark Hamill

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I think you need to reflect on the significance of the empty 'health risks' process in the UK.

I think you need to explain what you mean, instead of assuming people will just osmose your points from your vague posts.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

For my part, I haven't particularly said that the possibility of abortion on mental health grounds shouldn't be legislated for. I'm simply acknowledging that the legislation will be abused. If people want to claim the moral high ground, they need to display integrity by acknowledging plain realities.

All legislation like this can be abused, so that's entirely moot.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Also, bone fide cases where abortion will be a solution that avoids suicide will be rare as hens teeth. The real incredulity should be expressed at the apparent assumption that the cure for mental illness is to facilitate whatever demands a person makes while mentally ill.

Who said anything about cure? Its about treatment to reduce suffering and mental distress.

Mark Hamill

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Yeah I can't understand why the whole eugenics argument for abortion has fallen out of fashion. I mean, Marie Stopes wasn't slow about frankly stating the need to prevent the unfit from reproducing.

Who said anything about eugenics? These people aren't necessarily unfit to reproduce, but they are entirely unwilling, to the point of faking suicidal thoughts. If forced to endure the pregnancy, such people are hardly going to live through it with constant vigilance the healthy growth of the foetus.

Mark Hamill

loveisdivine wrote: »

What about situations where the woman becomes a threat to the foetus?
I mean if I were pregnant and I couldn't go to the UK and I couldn't get an abortion here because I'm not legitimately suicidal. I can honestly say I would consider taking things into my own hands.

I wouldn't be suicidal because I love my life, which is why I wouldn't want a baby. I would see the foetus as a threat to my happiness and sanity. Frankly I see it as a parasite.

Would the pro life lobby rather I had a safe abortion, or throw myself down the stairs?

Or am I supposed to just put up and shut up? Dump the baby at the Youth Defence headquarters afterwards.

What happens if someones decide "f*ck it, I'm not letting this parasite effect my life" and continues to party, drink, smoke, take drugs while pregnant? Should all women be kept under constant medical supervision under the assumption that some might not care they are pregnant and damaging the growth of the foetus?

Morag

Sarky wrote: »

Does he have an email address? I'd like to tell him what a thundering sack of crap I think he is, but I don't want to spend the price of a stamp on the wanker.

http://www.armagharchdiocese.org/cardinal-brady/

PopePalpatine

goodie2shoes wrote: »

yes the loons from both extremes of the "debate" are coming outta the woodwork and making exhibitions of themselves.

Who are these (probably mythical) pro-choice extremists, I wonder?

Lingua Franca

They're mates with the pro choice absolutists who support postnatal abortions, of course!

krankykitty

loveisdivine wrote: »

Or am I supposed to just put up and shut up? Dump the baby at the Youth Defence headquarters afterwards.

Oh we all know that wouldnt happen, as Youth Defence and their ilk actually don't give a fook about what happens to these babies once they're born.

goodie2shoes

is termination a cure for depression?
i doubt it.

Lingua Franca

I'll bet it's not a cure for earache either. What's your point?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Flier wrote: »

Firstly regarding them having their procedure and then disappearing. Doctors have a duty of care to their patients, and that extends beyond their own specialty. If a woman tells her obstetrian that she is suicidal, then they will at least have to refer her on to someone qualified for treatment. Weather she takes up the referral is up to her.

Bear in mind that the point at issue is that doctors will facilitate the process being undermined, if they feel this is in the patient's interest. The UK example is useful; for instance, on this thread, we've a poster who says she attended for an abortion and was actually unaware that a second doctor was required to confirm that she needed an abortion because of some health risk. In fact, she seemed unaware that the process involved any doctor needing to certify that her abortion was justified on grounds of health risks. Now, if she actually had some health risk, would you expect that an average doctor would at least tell you? Of course, the reality is there was no health risk - just two doctors willing to sign a form to facilitate an abortion.

Flier wrote: »

Secondly, noone thinks the cure for mental illness is an abortion. But if the woman is suicidal because she is pregnant, then is it not reasonable to think that she would not be suicidal if she was not pregnant.

I'm always uneasy about entertaining so much discussion of the probably quite rare cases when abortion is a robust solution to avoiding suicide.

What I'd suggest is this. If it is actually assessed that a woman is suicidal as a direct result of being pregnant, then is it not immediately unreasonable to think that she would not be suicidal if she had not become pregnant. But that's not the same as saying an abortion is necessarily the solution.

And, just to set some context, even if we established a right to abortion, a woman having suicidal thoughts would probably be deemed unable to make decisions on her own account. In fact, you could envisage a situation (in theory, which is frankly where this discussion belongs) where a woman would be compelled to have an abortion against her will, on grounds that if she continued with the pregnancy she would suicide.

All of which, to be honest, is widening a discussion into places where it need not go. All that needs to be said is that a mental health ground will be abused. It's silly to suggest otherwise.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't have a mental health ground. Just that we should be clear about what we're proposing.