Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Fulcher of Chartes?

Yes, Fulcher of Chartres -- that was him. Was it Terry Jones' Crusades telly series from fifteen years ago that quoted from him quite often?

BTW, I dropped by Albi a few years ago, mostly to see and hear the rather delicious organ there, but in the brief time I had, I couldn't find any memorial in the church to the innumerable thousands of Cathars murdered there and in the surrounding area by the Vatican and its supporters.

goodie2shoes

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Sorry, me? Now you want proof of something from ME? What would you like me to prove? What assertion did I make that you dispute?

Do you even know what you're talking about?

It's not a fair question to ask if by fair question you mean "demanding proof everytime someone posts no matter what they post".

this thread has become nonsensical imo.
people are stating the abortion is a perfect cure for suicidal depression, yet cannot come up with one shred of evidence to substantiate it.

in fact several reports indicate abortion will worsen a women's mental state not improve it. but you lot would rather deal in speculation, opinion and hyperbole.

Sarky

What the hell are you talking about? You're the one that made this thread nonsensical.

The Black Oil

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1220/1224328043207.html

There is no true democratic mandate for the transformation of Irish law to deny the equality and right to life of human beings.

Unborn children fail almost all the tests for significance, based on measurements of strength, power and autonomy, but they are no less human beings on that account. Yet the Government proposes to replace the present world-class medical regime in Irish hospitals of caring for mothers and children, ensuring mothers receive all necessary treatment, with one involving the intentional termination of innocent lives.

Any person of goodwill who values the basic principles of human rights must vigorously oppose it.

* William Binchy is a barrister at law and legal adviser to the Pro Life Campaign

Earlier in the piece he uses the word 'awesome'...

goodie2shoes

Sarky wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? You're the one that made this thread nonsensical.

explain please.

oldrnwisr

goodie2shoes wrote: »

this thread has become nonsensical imo.
people are stating the abortion is a perfect cure for suicidal depression, yet cannot come up with one shred of evidence to substantiate it.

in fact several reports indicate abortion will worsen a women's mental state not improve it. but you lot would rather deal in speculation, opinion and hyperbole.
then again when a person has no idea what they are talking about, or evidence to back up their opinions ............

You know it's a bit disingenuous to come in to this thread banging on about evidence and then make a claim (highlighted) without anything to support it.

As it turns out, thankfully, you're wrong, the evidence says no such thing.


Induced First-Trimester Abortion and Risk of Mental Disorder

This study shows that the incidence rate of psychiatric contact in those seeking first-term abortions went from 14.6 per 1000 person-years before abortion to 15.2 after. The 95% C.I. of the two groups overlapped, showing that there is no evidence to suggest that there is any negative psychological impact arising from abortion.
Pregnancy on the other hand is associated with significant increased negative psychological impact with incidence rates rising from 3.9 before to 6.7 after.
Therefore, it can at least be asserted that in some cases, abortion may lead to more positive psychological outcomes than proceeding with the pregnancy.

Delirium

goodie2shoes wrote: »

this thread has become nonsensical imo.
people are stating the abortion is a perfect cure for suicidal depression, yet cannot come up with one shred of evidence to substantiate it.

in fact several reports indicate abortion will worsen a women's mental state not improve it. but you lot would rather deal in speculation, opinion and hyperbole.

oldrnwisr wrote: »

As it happens, yes.


Induced First-Trimester Abortion and Risk of Mental Disorder

This study shows that the incidence rate of psychiatric contact in those seeking first-term abortions went from 14.6 per 1000 person-years before abortion to 15.2 after. The 95% C.I. of the two groups overlapped, showing that there is no evidence to suggest that there is any negative psychological impact arising from abortion.
Pregnancy on the other hand is associated with significant increased negative psychological impact with incidence rates rising from 3.9 before to 6.7 after.
Therefore, it can at least be asserted that in some cases, abortion may lead to more positive psychological outcomes than proceeding with the pregnancy.

Now, you were asked how abortion is medically unnecessary? Care to answer?

.

Ash.J.Williams

Iggy spoke the most sense Ive heard in the whole "debate", catholics should look after their own bodies and leave the rest of us alone.

oldrnwisr

koth wrote: »

.

great minds...

Delirium

oldrnwisr wrote: »

great minds...

you mean you have two? :eek::pac:

Sarky

It would explain a lot.

Obliq

goodie2shoes wrote: »

this thread has become nonsensical imo.
people are stating the abortion is a perfect cure for suicidal depression, yet cannot come up with one shred of evidence to substantiate it.

in fact several reports indicate abortion will worsen a women's mental state not improve it. but you lot would rather deal in speculation, opinion and hyperbole.

And you are flogging a dead horse. Abortion is the cure for many of the extraordinarily difficult situations that a woman with an unwanted pregnancy may be in. The fact that we are centering on the ridiculously narrow parameter of abortion being only allowable when a woman is suicidal is a reflection of the law being an ass.

Speculation, opinion and hyperbole are all we can use to debate this issue as this is the only country in the world who are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I would imagine there are very limited examples of when abortion can be a cure for suicidality, as where else other than here would attempt such a study of stupidity as this piss-poor piece of legislation ?

Enjoy the metaphors.

Morag

http://www.rcpi.ie/News/Pages/IOGstatementonABCdecision.aspx

Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Welcomes Government Decision on ABC Expert Group Option
18/12/2012
The Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has issued a statement on the Government's decision in light of the ABC v Ireland judgement



The Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has issued the following statement:


“We welcome the Government’s decision on the form of action to be taken in the light of the judgement of the European Court of Human Rights in A,B and C v Ireland.


"The implementation of this judgement by way of legislation with regulations is also our preferred option, a decision that we reached following an in-depth review of the details provided by the Expert Group.


"This option is, in our opinion, the best way to protect women and health professionals, and it also allows for the necessary flexibility to cater for future advances in Obstetrics.”

stanley 2

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Iggy spoke the most sense Ive heard in the whole "debate", catholics should look after their own bodies and leave the rest of us alone.

thats where we christians made the mistakee in the holocaust we took care of ourselves and forgot about the Jews gyspies ect lets not make the same mistake this time

Sarky

wat

MagicMarker

Sarky wrote: »

wat

He said thats where we christians made the mistakee in the holocaust we took care of ourselves and forgot about the Jews gyspies ect lets not make the same mistake this time

Dades

stanley 2 wrote: »

thats where we christians made the mistakee in the holocaust we took care of ourselves and forgot about the Jews gyspies ect lets not make the same mistake this time

Moral of the story - never mind your own business again?

This isn't the fight for the church to redeem those failures. Though I guess it's a lot easier to preach to pregnant women than a nazi with a gun.

Bannasidhe

Dades wrote: »

Moral of the story - never mind your own business again?

This isn't the fight for the church to redeem those failures. Though I guess it's a lot easier to preach to pregnant women than a nazi with a gun.

Yeah - nor would it be fair to point out that most people in Nazi Germany (and Nazi Austria, Nazi Sudetenland, Nazi Croatia etc etc ) were Christians.

Christians in shiny boots given it seig heil to a man with a silly mustache (no -not Chaplin, his silly mustache was fake - and he was a loony lefty).

Why one of those young Christians in Nazi Germany grew up to be the Pope...

old hippy

stanley 2 wrote: »

thats where we christians made the mistakee in the holocaust we took care of ourselves and forgot about the Jews gyspies ect lets not make the same mistake this time

Does not compute

Mark Hamill

Thanks for your long and detailed response Peregrinus, I'll just quote the first sentence in each section so I don't end with a post that will melt peoples mouse wheel while they scroll through it

Peregrinus wrote: »

I take your point. But I still see a problem.

I see what you are saying, and again I don't deny that the proposed process could be open to abuse. But this can apply to any legislated process. You will always find people who will want something that they strictly shouldn't have, according to legislation (be it abortions or drugs or alcoholetc.) and there will always be someone, a doctor or nurse maybe, who might agree with them (or be conned by them).
But we don't ban all drugs under the basis that someone might try (and succeed) in conning the system for getting a prescription. You argument is merely a point to make sure the process is stringent, not an argument against the process itself (you may not be making the argument for the latter purpose, but other people are twisting it that way).

Peregrinus wrote: »

Your point about ongoing mental issues is, I think, misplaced.

Well, I was under the impression that threatening self harm would be considered a mental health issue, is it not?

swampgas

From an opinion piece in the Irish Times by William Binchy, a barrister at law and legal adviser to the Pro Life Campaign.

"Yet the Government proposes to replace the present world-class medical regime in Irish hospitals of caring for mothers and children, ensuring mothers receive all necessary treatment, with one involving the intentional termination of innocent lives."

William Binchey has a bizarre idea of what "world class" health-care means - Savita Halappanavar certainly didn't get it, nor do all those women forced to leave the country to get the treatment they need.

Irish people need to stop believing the myth that Ireland somehow knows better than most other developed countries when it comes to abortion. Do they really believe that women in countries where abortion is available on demand are callous baby-killers? That is the implication, and it's pretty insulting to those countries - does William Binchy consider Italy, France and Spain for example to be countries with a "culture of death" ?

Corkfeen

So, I got that Savita automated phonecall today........ Man, it irritated me so much. :eek: I'm sort of disappointed that there was nobody on the other end of the line to shout at.

lazygal

Corkfeen wrote: »

So, I got that Savita automated phonecall today........ Man, it irritated me so much. :eek: I'm sort of disappointed that there was nobody on the other end of the line to shout at.

Make sure to contact ComReg.

Icepick

swampgas wrote: »

From an opinion piece in the Irish Times by William Binchy, a barrister at law and legal adviser to the Pro Life Campaign.

William Binchey has a bizarre idea of what "world class" health-care means - Savita Halappanavar certainly didn't get it, nor do all those women forced to leave the country to get the treatment they need.

William Binchey is a prominent figure of the "see no evil, hear no evil" brigade that pretends that the 6,000 women having abortions abroad every year do not exist.
NHS is the secret behind our "present world-class medical regime in Irish hospitals of caring for mothers and children."

What also needs to be addressed though is the fact the the government is going to legislate for rights already guaranteed by the constitution.

lazygal

Icepick wrote: »

William Binchey is a prominent figure of the see no evil, hear no evil brigade that pretends that the 6,000 women having abortions abroad every year do not exist.

Or he can justify his stance by thinking that the godless abortion mills in the UK are dealing with the dirty little secrets of the sluts of Ireland and the women involved have to pay for the privilege.

lazygal

I got the Yoof Defence leaflet in the door today.

Can anyone sort out this puzzler? I wasn't in when it was put through the letterbox. We have a sign saying 'addressed mail only' on the letterbox. Is there any litter law or other violation? The local takeaways and charity clothes collectors don't put anything through the letterbox, but Yoof Defence seem to think they've a free pass on this.

Lingua Franca

swampgas wrote: »

Irish people need to stop believing the myth that Ireland somehow knows better than most other developed countries when it comes to abortion. Do they really believe that women in countries where abortion is available on demand are callous baby-killers? That is the implication, and it's pretty insulting to those countries - does William Binchy consider Italy, France and Spain for example to be countries with a "culture of death" ?

Yep. There's folk in other areas of this forum even that believe that people in European countries only take time off from performing abortions and euthanising sick people, old folk and the disabled to pass laws to protect tadpoles. I assume these people don't travel.

Morag

lazygal wrote: »

I got the Yoof Defence leaflet in the door today.

Can anyone sort out this puzzler? I wasn't in when it was put through the letterbox. We have a sign saying 'addressed mail only' on the letterbox. Is there any litter law or other violation? The local takeaways and charity clothes collectors don't put anything through the letterbox, but Yoof Defence seem to think they've a free pass on this.

I tried to question those who leafleted my house and found they were the local legion of mary and they said they were delivering them to all the house in the parish. They could not comprehend that I was not a part of their parish.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

We have a sign saying 'addressed mail only' on the letterbox.

You could always leave a deposit in their letterbox.

PopePalpatine

swampgas wrote: »

William Binchey has a bizarre idea of what "world class" health-care means - Savita Halappanavar certainly didn't get it, nor do all those women forced to leave the country to get the treatment they need.

I spent about 4 hours on a trolley in Drogheda Hospital waiting for my appendix to be removed. That doesn't sound like "world class" to me.