Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

megamonsterboy

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Atheist Ireland has asked to be be invited to take part in the morning session on Thursday 10 January, when the committee is hearing from the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian Church of Ireland, Methodist Church of Ireland, and Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland.

Ideally, there should be no need to hear any specifically religious views, but if they are hearing religious views, then they should also hear nonreligious views.

We want to outline the case for the Government to approach this issue from an ethical secular perspective, and not on the basis of theological beliefs.

Our policy is that society should address ethical issues based on human rights and compassion, and applying reason to empirical evidence, and not on religious doctrines; and that individual ethical decisions should where possible be made on the basis of personal autonomy and individual conscience, while not infringing on the rights of others.

Also, as one example, Cardinal Brady has recently asked people to tell their public representatives that the right to life is conferred on human beings by ‘the creator’. We want to explain why we believe the Government should not legislate or regulate on the basis of imposing such theological ideas on citizens who do not share them.

If you would like to let the Health Committee members know you support this request, the members of the Committee are:

Jerry.Buttimer@oireachtas.ie, Catherine.Byrne@oireachtas.ie, Michael.Colreavy@oireachtas.ie, Ciara.Conway@oireachtas.ie, Regina.Doherty@oireachtas.ie, Robert.Dowds@oireachtas.ie, Peter.Fitzpatrick@oireachtas.ie, Seamus.Healy@oireachtas.ie, Billy.Kelleher@oireachtas.ie, Eamonn.Maloney@oireachtas.ie, Mary.MitchellOConnor@oireachtas.ie, Mattie.McGrath@oireachtas.ie, Denis.Naughten@oireachtas.ie, Caoimhghin.OCaolain@oireachtas.ie, Robert.Troy@oireachtas.ie, Colm.Burke@oireachtas.ie, John.Crown@oireachtas.ie, John.Gilroy@oireachtas.ie, Imelda.Henry@oireachtas.ie, Marc.MacSharry@oireachtas.ie, Jillian.VanTurnhout@oireachtas.ie

Get a life and stop whinging

PopePalpatine

megamonsterboy wrote: »

Get a life and stop whinging

I'd say the same to the Catholic hierarchy.

fisgon

megamonsterboy wrote: »

Get a life and stop whinging

fisgon

efb wrote: »

Celibate old man lectures on women's issues...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2013/0108/1224328565449.html

Nauseating to hear him talk about "mercy and compassion" towards pregnant women. Is he even aware of the existence of the Magdalen launderies, or the policy of stealing the children of women who became pregnant outside marriage in this country for forced adoptions, all perpetrated by agents of the church. Women with crisis pregnancies have never, ever received "mercy and compassion" from Benedict´s church.

Bannasidhe

In the message, which was released today, the pope noted that “serious harm to justice and peace” comes from denying the true principles of respect for life and promotion of the “natural structure of marriage as the union of a man and a woman.”

Pope Benedict XVI, boldly stressed that pro-lifers are the ‘true peacemakers’ and that those who would support abortion promote a “false peace.”

The path to the attainment of the common good and to peace is above all that of respect for human life in all its many aspects, beginning with its conception, through its development and up to its natural end. True peacemakers, then, are those who love, defend and promote human life in all its dimensions, personal, communitarian and transcendent. Life in its fullness is the height of peace. Anyone who loves peace cannot tolerate attacks and crimes against life.

http://cal-catholic.com/wordpress/2012/12/16/true-peace-in-the-world-requires-end-of-abortion-and-gay-marriage/

And thus spake the man who blessed the 'Kill The Gays' Ugandan politician - one assumes a Gay life is not worth respecting.

Must be because history has shown us it's the Gays and the Abortionseekers who are the cause of so much human misery and war. I mean look at the condition Canada is in - riven by strife, poverty, murder and...um...maple syrup...

Morag

The Irish Choice Network have put a call out for people and groups to make submissions to the Committee for health on the hearings re legislation for abortion and have put up a how to and examples.

http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/1/post/2013/01/how-to-make-a-written-submission-to-the-oireachtas-health-committee.html

Going to have a bash at it myself this evening.

PopePalpatine

fisgon wrote: »

Nauseating to hear him talk about "mercy and compassion" towards pregnant women. Is he even aware of the existence of the Magdalen launderies, or the policy of stealing the children of women who became pregnant outside marriage in this country for forced adoptions, all perpetrated by agents of the church. Women with crisis pregnancies have never, ever received "mercy and compassion" from Benedict´s church.

Hey, speaking of forced adoptions: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899

aloyisious

Well. tickle me pink with a feather duster. RTE's just reported that the Bar Council have pulled out of the Oireachtas meeting tomorrow, apparently on the grounds that they don't have a unified opinion on the topic, therefore can't speak with one tongue, so to speak. Pity it took them this long to realize this.

Galvasean

Obliq wrote: »

Schedule again:

Tuesday 8th January - Seanad Eireann (Medical Hearings)

Session 1: @ 9.30 - 11.30
Department of Health (Ms. Geraldine Luddy ...to open)
Irish Medical Council (Ms.Caroline Spillane, CEO., & Mr. Kieran Murphy, President)

Session 2: @ 11.45 - 13.45
Dr. Rhona Mahony, Master, National Maternity Hospital,
Dr. Sam Coulter Smyth, Master Rotunda Hospital,
Dr. Mary McCaffrey. Kerry Hospital, Tralee.

Session 3: @ 14.45 - 16.45
Dr. Anthony McCarthy,
Dr. Joanne Fenton,
Dr. John Sheehan
Dr. Maeve Doyle (all College of Psychiatry Ireland)
Prof. Patricia Casey (Dept. of Adult Psychiatry, UCD & Mater Misercordiae University Hospital)
Prof. Veronica O'Kane (Dept. of Psychiatry, Tallaght Hospital)

Session 4: @ 17:00 - 19.00
Irish Family Planning Association (Mr. Niall Behan CEO, Dr. Caitriona Henchion)
Institute of Obstetricians & Gynaecologists (Prof. Robert F Harrison, Chairman, Dr. Meabh Ni Bhuinneain, Prof. Fionnuala McAuliffe)
Maternal Death Inquiry Ireland (Prof. Richard Greene)

Wednesday 9th January - Seanad Eireann (Legal Hearings)

Session 1: @ 9.30 - 11.30
Ms. Jeniffer Schweppe (University of Limerick)
Ms. Ciara Staunton (NUI Galway)
Dr. Simon Mills (Law Library)


Session 2: @ 11.45 - 13.45
Bar Council of Ireland (Mr. David Nolan)
Irish Council of Civil Liberties (Mr Stephen O'Hare, Mr Alan D.P. Brady)

Session 3: @ 14.45 - 16.15
Professor William Binchy (Trinity College Dublin)
Hon. Judge Catherine McGuiness (retired)

Thursday 10th January - Seanad Eireann (Churches & Advocacy Groups)

Session 1: @ 9.30-11.30
Irish Catholic Bishops Conference (Rev. Christopher Jones, Bishop of Elphin; Fr. Timothy Bartlett)
Church of Ireland (Most Rev. Dr. Michael Jackson, Archbishop of Dublin; Mr. Samuel Harper)
Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Dr. Trevor Morrow, Dr. Roy Patton)
Methodist Church of Ireland (Ms. Heidi Good)
Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (Dr. Ali Selim)
Atheist Ireland, (Mr. Michael Nugent,)

Session 2: @ 11.45- 13.45
Pro Life Campaign (Ms. Caroline Simons; Dr. Berry Kiely)
Youth Defence (Dr. Eoghan de Faoite; Dr. Sean O'Domhnaill)
Family & life (Mr. Patrick Carr, Mr. David Manley)
Iona Institute (Ms. Breda O'Brien)

Session 3: @ 14.45 - 16.45
Choice Ireland (Ms. Jacinta Fay; Ms. Denise Ryan)
National Womens Council of Ireland (Ms. Orla O'Connor, Director, Ms. Jacqueline Healy)
Action on X (Ms. Ailbhe Smyth; Ms. Therese Caherty)

All hearings will be in public session and will be broadcast live on these pages and on the Oireachtas channel 207 on the UPC cable network.

Notice how Patricia Casey isn't listed as being an IONA Institute member. Funny that.

lazygal

Galvasean wrote: »

Notice how Patricia Casey isn't listed as being an IONA Institute member. Funny that.

I've actually written to the Chair of the committee to ask why she was included in the medical slot of opinion yesterday rather than with the interest groups tomorrow given her clear and stated anti choice, in all circumstances, position. I'm also curious to hear from anyone who had her as a lecturer or studied under her, if she's as bigoted in the field of education as she comes across in the media.

Galvasean

lazygal wrote: »

I've actually written to the Chair of the committee to ask why she was included in the medical slot of opinion yesterday rather than with the interest groups tomorrow given her clear and stated anti choice, in all circumstances, position. I'm also curious to hear from anyone who had her as a lecturer or studied under her, if she's as bigoted in the field of education as she comes across in the media.

I haven't watched or read her section of the debates, but apparently she was called on it by a senator when she started talking about 'floodgates'. It was something along the lines of how it was peculiar that the only psychiatrist on the panel who said such a thing just happened to be an IONA Institute patron AFAIK.

Galvasean

Actually, looking at that lineup (saying that makes it sound like a rock gig) we have 4 pro-life groups compared to 3 pro-choice groups in the interest groups section, 5 of the 6 groups in the 'religious' section are likely to be pro-life (I'm open to correction on this) and one card carrying IONA Institute patron in the medical section.
I wonder how David Quinn etc. will interprate 'liberal pro-choice bias' out of this one?

Bannasidhe

Galvasean wrote: »

I wonder how David Quinn etc. will interprate 'liberal pro-choice bias' out of this one?

On the grounds that one is too many I imagine.

Turtwig

Galvasean wrote: »

Notice how Patricia Casey isn't listed as being an IONA Institute member. Funny that.

Don't forget Binchy. He's not IONA, but he is definitely a militant pro-life advocate.

swampgas

Jernal wrote: »

Don't forget Binchy. He's not IONA, but he is definitely a militant pro-life advocate.

He certainly came across that way today. He seemed to flat out deny any need to repeal the abortion section of the 1861 Offences against the person act, and was pretty much insisting that no new legislation was needed either, despite being called out on this more than once.

He did start to bang on about the risk of changing the culture of Ireland by introducing limited abortion. Well, he has no right to demand that Irish culture remains frozen in the past. If Irish people decide that some level of abortion should be allowed, it's their democratic right that it be allowed.

This whole argument that our culture should be preserved against change makes me sick when I consider the abuses that have gone on in Irish "culture" since the formation of the state.

goodie2shoes

it's good to see the debate has been civil and reasoned.
long may this continue.
hopefully a happy, sensible middle ground can and will be found and legislated for.
the bile-fest that many of the posters on this forum crave so much has not materialized.

PopePalpatine

Galvasean wrote: »

I wonder how David Quinn etc. will interprate 'liberal pro-choice bias' out of this one?

Pro-choicers haven't been burnt at the stake yet.

Obliq

swampgas wrote: »

He certainly came across that way today. He seemed to flat out deny any need to repeal the abortion section of the 1861 Offences against the person act, and was pretty much insisting that no new legislation was needed either, despite being called out on this more than once.

He did start to bang on about the risk of changing the culture of Ireland by introducing limited abortion. Well, he has no right to demand that Irish culture remains frozen in the past. If Irish people decide that some level of abortion should be allowed, it's their democratic right that it be allowed.

This whole argument that our culture should be preserved against change makes me sick when I consider the abuses that have gone on in Irish "culture" since the formation of the state.

Considering that odious man is one of the people who forced the 1983 8th amendment on us, with the full intention of restricting change (in his view "lapsing of moral standards"), it's hardly a surprise that he thinks he has a right to freeze our culture in the past.

lazygal

Jernal wrote: »

Don't forget Binchy. He's not IONA, but he is definitely a militant pro-life anti womanadvocate.

Fixed your post. He's an odious individual.

I quite enjoyed seeing Terence Flanagan being caught on asking whether legislation was even needed. Seeing as he's declared himself as anti choice I'm going to ask him via email if he will be introducing private members' legislation immediately to stop Irish women taking their unborn babies to other jurisdictions to be killed. And if not, why not. I urge others to ask the same of other anti choices TDs and Senators.

The Black Oil

The Black Oil wrote: »

Not surprisingly, when Mullen's comments (and the culture of death ones) were put to a pro-life rep on the PK radio show just before Christmas she didn't distance herself from them. More of this to come, no doubt.

Obliq wrote: »

Well they should be standing over their beliefs. That's fair enough! What gets me is when they call abortion murder, they won't put their money where mouth is and call the 5,000 women per year murderers. Also the IVF participants/medical practitioners.

To me, it shows how worried they are about the part-time catholics and how they'd react to such a hard-line. They must know that most would come down on the side of compassion for born people's lives, and can't risk the argument.

We need to bring the argument to them.

Certainly - I don't have an issue with them defending their views, and they should be free to do so, but I do dislike parts of how they attempt to frame this debate. In this instance, iirc, the pro-life speaker, in not distancing herself from Mullen went with the 'no, let's be honest and talk about this, because what we're actually talking about is ______'. It seems that they will support each other to the hilt regardless of how distasteful another pro-life speaker's comments are. Maybe she felt a little outnumbered as everyone else on the panel was essentially saying that the government had to legislate, even if they weren't necessarily speaking from a pro-choice perspective, think they were political editors/legal correspondents of national papers.

I've not had much of a chance to review the Oireachtas coverage so far, but saw a few snippets when at my desk in work. As it happens, I've been tasked with reviewing our media archive, which is on a non-related issue, but there were hard copies of the Irish Times and other papers from Dec 2001/Jan 2002 that I was looking at today. Funnily enough, the abortion debate was in the headlines - Bertie and co., and even one featuring Binchy. I then went looking for a Waters and O' Brien, sure enough they were there, too, not on abortion, but hey, let them keep complaining about the liberal media when they've had columns for over a decade.

Glad to see the pro-choice presence for session 3 has increased a little - it was looking a little thin.

Galvasean wrote: »

I haven't watched or read her section of the debates, but apparently she was called on it by a senator when she started talking about 'floodgates'. It was something along the lines of how it was peculiar that the only psychiatrist on the panel who said such a thing just happened to be an IONA Institute patron AFAIK.

I saw something about on the journal think it was along the lines that she was called on speaking in psychiatrist mode when she was really their to represent a non-professional, institute/think tank standpoint, but I could be wrong.

panda100

The whole hearing is a joke at this stage. The methodist church have 53,000 members in Ireland, that is 1.25% of the population, and they are given a platform to speak! What about hearing from women whom have chosen to have terminations, they are not represented at all

I wish Michael Nugent the best of luck tommorow, the only reasoned opinion on the whole panel.

Morag

The Black Oil wrote: »

Glad to see the pro-choice presence for session 3 has increased a little - it was looking a little thin.

There has been a huge amount of pressure to make that happen, phone calls and emails to push for some sort of appearance of balance.

I am however concerned how they will be treated in the chamber and it exposes the speakers
to abuse and harassment afterwards.

Bobby42

I wonder what talking points we'll hear today.

Culture of death? Abortion is never needed? Abortion mills? Abortion regime?

Sanctity of life? No evidence abortion saves lives? Women will just pretend to be suicidal so we can't trust them?

loveisdivine

Just looking at the Rev Jones makes my blood boil. Old fart that he is.

"If your intention is to kill the baby then its abortion. If your intention is to save the mother then its termination"

bore off!

UDP

"Derek Byrne: says this is a Catholic country – based on last census – so should we apply Roman Catholic teaching to medical practice?"

Who is this Derek Byrne? Is it the "Assistant Garda Commissioner for national support services" or who?

Sarky

How many Iona Institute/Youth Defence cronies are there "separately" and pretending their affiliations don't exist to try and inflate the numbers on their side?

Dermighty

I wish the government would just cut the church free from the state.

It's a f*cking disgrace that in the 21st century we have to have the creation of laws affected by religion.

It makes me angry!

Hotblack Desiato

UDP wrote: »

"Derek Byrne: says this is a Catholic country – based on last census – so should we apply Roman Catholic teaching to medical practice?"

Eh, NO, because this isn't Saudi Arabia and we don't want to live in a theocracy.

Wish we'd just have a bloody referendum to get rid of the 8th amendment, how many nominal 'catholics' would vote Yes to abolish it?

loveisdivine

Crikey that second YD Dr is really trying hard to pull at the heart strings isnt he? Dramatic pauses and everything!

Yes of course someone that didnt really want an abortion would be upset after having one. But thats not what were talking about is it.

swampgas

loveisdivine wrote: »

Crikey that second YD Dr is really trying hard to pull at the heart strings isnt he? Dramatic pauses and everything!

Yes of course someone that didnt really want an abortion would be upset after having one. But thats not what were talking about is it.

I'm actually somewhat surprised (naive of me I know) that YD get this huge opportunity to soapbox at length like this. Who exactly do these people claim to represent?
:mad: