Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

No i didnt i said that pain medication does not suffice,and that you get ONE paracetemol pill

Paracetamol should be enough under normal circumstances. If not, then you go to a pharmacist and buy something a little stronger.

christmas2012 wrote: »

the risk of infection is high and yet you DO NOT get antibiotics

The major abortions providers (BPAS and Marie Stopes) prescribe a prophylactic course of antibiotics.

christmas2012 wrote: »

the abortion itself is painful,PAIN DOES HAPPEN FOR EVERYONE.

Not true.

christmas2012 wrote: »

Even if you come around after g.a(and very few clinics do this unless you go private

Not true. Generals are offered even with free provision.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Marie Stopes International offers all options - medical abortion (abortion pill) or surgical abortion with no anaesthetic, sedation or general anaesthetic.

Most of them offer (and i do know this) concious sedation,not general anaesthetic like you describe.

My clinic offered both. I had to take sedition though as my kidneys were damaged from the pregnancy and It was too dangerous for me. I met the anaesthesiologist, so I know he was there.

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

BTW,for the abortion pill ,they can only do that at the first few weeks,if it goes a month they have to do an abortion.

Not true. Medical abortions are now offered to 7 weeks or so.

hattoncracker

Does your friend regret it, Christmas? You never answered.

christmas2012

http://womenhurt.ie/?page_id=150


a good website for anybody who is considering abortion,it can give you a new set of problems to deal with,a note and warning to all,conscious sedation does not always have the desired effect,sometimes there are bits you can remember and with a horribly invasive procedure you shouldnt have to but it can happen,pain is something that every woman that has an abortion experiences as all you get is one measly paracetemol afterwards,which im afraid doesnt do the trick.

Its worth a read of these womens stories..

Does your friend regret it, Christmas? You never answered.

She does and she doesnt regret it,obviously she was in the wrong relationship,and it would have been tough,but you never know it could have worked even if she was a single mother,but it was something the guy didnt want either,they could have put it up for adoption..Sometimes she looks back and regrets it,but knows it was the right decision,but the trauma,and the pain she says was unforgettable,and is something that can be hard to live with..

iguana

christmas2012 wrote: »

(and very few clinics do this unless you go private and girls from irl are all classed as public as they have cash for it and no private healthcare compatible with the uk)..Abortion is not an easy procedure,its better to know this no matter how unfantasy like or how ideal it is..

How do you come up with this stuff? Most women travelling over from Ireland specifically for an abortion go privately as they do not have the proof of UK residence necessary to be registered with an NHS GP and therefore can not get an NHS referral. Even Northern Irish women who are UK citizens can't access NHS abortions.

As for the 'private' abortions, most in the UK are provided by BPAS and Marie Stopes. Both of which are non-profit groups with registered charity status. Seriously christmas, all you are doing is embarrassing yourself with the obvious nonsense.

doctoremma

Christmas, I have to thank you. Your tales, if true, of how awful it is for Irish women having abortions in the UK - not being offered the full complement of options, not being given proper pain control, not being offered proper counselling - only serve to cement my position that Ireland MUST begin to offer this service at home.

iguana

doctoremma wrote: »

Not true. Medical abortions are now offered to 7 weeks or so.

Just to clarify, that's 7 weeks gestation which means the woman is 9 weeks pregnant. And last year 47% of abortions in England and Wales were medical abortions.

christmas2012

If you get over early its less traumatic is the lesson to be learned - you can get stung by abortion,they dont give a sh!t about you afterwards,its all concious sedation mostly,its cost effective,and you get one paracetemol after paying hundreds to them.It did happen like that.

According to mariestopes, you are wrong.

Not all clincs favour anaesthesia,fly over and find out what they think,they will push you the concious sedation route,and AFTER you had your first abortion - get back to me.

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

NOW THAT IS AN UNTRUTH.General anaesthetic can only be given by a qualified general anaethetist,nobody else,not the abortionist,this is WHY concious sedation is only popular with a lot of abortion clinics in the UK.Ring marie stopes and ask them yourself.

christmas2012 wrote: »

Most of them offer (and i do know this) concious sedation,not general anaesthetic like you describe.

AND NO,there not lying whatsoever i was there with them they got concious sedation,and were in agony aftewards as it was a horribly invasive procedure.

BTW,for the abortion pill ,they can only do that at the first few weeks,if it goes a month they have to do an abortion.

Christmas 2012
Nearly all of the things you have posted so far on abortion have been factually incorrect. It is blindingly obvious to anyone that can read that yoour information is wrong - you suggested we contacted Marie Stopes - please read this and the desist with your persistant scaremongering.

http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/Womens_services/Abortion/Abortion_options/Surgical_abortion.aspx

Since it is also clear that you havent followed a single one of the many links I have posted in an effort to educate you on the actual facts of abortion I will also paste some of the relevant info here.

Medical abortion treatment
Medical abortion or the abortion pill (also known as ‘early abortion’) is an alternative to surgical abortion and is available before nine weeks of pregnancy at Marie Stopes International. This type of abortion means taking two sets of pills (orally) over two visits (this can be on the same day or separate days) which causes the passing of the pregnancy


Breakdown of surgical abortion at different gestations

1. Early surgical abortion: before 12 weeks of pregnancy
At this stage a gentle suction method is used to remove the pregnancy from the uterus. This is a very quick and simple procedure, taking less than five minutes to perform. Women can choose to have no anaesthetic, light sedation or a general anaesthetic.

2. Surgical abortion: 13-19 weeks pregnancy
This treatment will take about 10-15 minutes, as we will need to dilate the cervix (opening of the uterus) to gently remove the pregnancy. If your pregnancy is more than 15 weeks gestation, you may be given some medication to prepare your cervix for the procedure. At this stage you will be given the option of conscious sedation or a general anaesthetic.

3. Later surgical abortion 19-24 weeks pregnancy
At this stage of pregnancy the treatment is performed in two separate stages. You will be asked to arrive at the centre early in the morning for the first part, which involves preparation of your cervix to cause it to gently dilate over a few hours. There is no need to have an anaesthetic for this part of the treatment and after this you will stay with us at the clinic and rest until the second stage of your treatment. The second stage, to complete the abortion, will take place later that day and you will be given a general anaesthetic.

christmas2012

to gently remove the pregnancy.

My friend was nearly at 3 months - and she can attest to the fact - IT WAS NOT GENTLE.It was invasive and she felt it,And felt pain aftewards.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

http://womenhurt.ie/?page_id=150


a good website for anybody who is considering abortion,it can give you a new set of problems to deal with,a note and warning to all,conscious sedation does not always have the desired effect,sometimes there are bits you can remember and with a horribly invasive procedure you shouldnt have to but it can happen,pain is something that every woman that has an abortion experiences as all you get is one measly paracetemol afterwards,which im afraid doesnt do the trick.

Its worth a read of these womens stories..

Does your friend regret it, Christmas? You never answered.

She does and she doesnt regret it,obviously she was in the wrong relationship,and it would have been tough,but you never know it could have worked even if she was a single mother,but it was something the guy didnt want either,they could have put it up for adoption..Sometimes she looks back and regrets it,but knows it was the right decision,but the trauma,and the pain she says was unforgettable,and is something that can be hard to live with..

I understand that, it's hard not to wonder "what if" sometimes, mourning the road not taken is normal..

But how can you use this as an example of why not to have an abortion if your friend knows she made the right choice..?

It's a traumatic experience, it's not something you dream of as a little girl.. But if she made the right choice for herself then she should have some heart and not be hard on herself..

Also it was good of you to go with Her, given thatyou believe what you believe.

Gongoozler

aidan24326 wrote: »

Call themselves yes, act as such no. The true number of practising catholics in Ireland is much lower than that. And if we take 'practising' to mean what it's supposed to mean i.e adherence to the rules, rituals and dogma of the creed, then I'd say the real percentage is closer to 8.4 than 84.


Lots of people who call themselves catholic would probably vote in favour of abortion even though it's strictly forbidden by that religion.

Anyway, for me when it comes to issues like I this I think the RC Church have rather burnt their bridges when it comes to moralising. Not even just burnt them but blown them to smithereens.

Oh I'm not saying that I believe they're practicing Catholics, but at the same time, you'd have to question the loyalty to the RCC in the country with that kinda thing going on, and therefore it could be hard to tell what way the voting would really go.

Yeah you'd imagine people in Ireland would have a similar attitude towards the RCC with all the scandal etc in recent years, but there just still seems to be a steady following of values, even without the actual church going.

If people in the country genuinely don't agree / want abortion, then ok, but you'd hope that there's enough people out there that won't blindly follow what the church wants.

There seems to be little out there in terms of recent opinion polls on the subject. The most recent I can find is for 2010, but that only covers 18-35 year olds.

iguana

doctoremma wrote: »

Christmas, I have to thank you. Your tales, if true, of how awful it is for Irish women having abortions in the UK - not being offered the full complement of options, not being given proper pain control, not being offered proper counselling - only serve to cement my position that Ireland MUST begin to offer this service at home.

I'll give another reason why we need to start offering this service at home. Spurred on by this thread I did a search through a number of online pharmacy services, both the 'reputable' and the ones that are less so. I'd have little problem whatsoever ordering drugs that claim to be the ones given for medical abortion. I did this because I had read claims that more Irish women were attempting this due to not having the money to travel to the UK for an abortion. And seeing how easy and relatively cheap it is to order these pills (which I didn't think it would be) I don't doubt that there is some truth to there being a growing number of women attempting this route.

I don't think I can overstate just how dangerous this is. Even if they are somehow getting the right dosage of the correct drugs there are so many reasons that they shouldn't take them without a doctor to prescribe and supervise. There are also very good odds that the pills they are getting are not what they ordered. It's very worrying that desperate women may be trying this.

fatmammycat

christmas2012 wrote: »

My friend was nearly at 3 months - and she can attest to the fact - IT WAS NOT GENTLE.It was invasive and she felt it,And felt pain aftewards.

You keep saying it was invasive, not gentle, but for god's sake, getting a tooth out is invasive and in some cases not entirely gentle, should dentistry be outlawed on this basis? Your friend availed of a medical proceedure, safely and in good hands. She was lucky in many regards that she had the money to do so, many woman do not and are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. I also know a woman who could not afford to travel to the Uk and had to endure a secret pregnancy and give that child up for adoption. THAT for her was more traumatic than any abortion I can tell you. To this days she suffers for it. That's why is makes me sick to my stomach listening to the 'oh sure just have it adopted' by the women as incubators for the childless crowd.

hattoncracker

iguana wrote: »

doctoremma wrote: »

Christmas, I have to thank you. Your tales, if true, of how awful it is for Irish women having abortions in the UK - not being offered the full complement of options, not being given proper pain control, not being offered proper counselling - only serve to cement my position that Ireland MUST begin to offer this service at home.

I'll give another reason why we need to start offering this service at home. Spurred on by this thread I did a search through a number of online pharmacy services, both the 'reputable' and the ones that are less so. I'd have little problem whatsoever ordering drugs that claim to be the ones given for medical abortion. I did this because I had read claims that more Irish women were attempting this due to not having the money to travel to the UK for an abortion. And seeing how easy and relatively cheap it is to order these pills (which I didn't think it would be) I don't doubt that there is some truth to there being a growing number of women attempting this route.

I don't think I can overstate just how dangerous this is. Even if they are somehow getting the right dosage of the correct drugs there are so many reasons that they shouldn't take them without a doctor to prescribe and supervise. There are also very good odds that the pills they are getting are not what they ordered. It's very worrying that desperate women may be trying this.

There is a thread in the LL that I started which became a story's sharing thread.. A young girl on there did this, I think..

If I hadn't had the money I probably would have done the same but it's frightening how desperate you become in this situation.

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

http://womenhurt.ie/?page_id=150


a good website for anybody who is considering abortion,it can give you a new set of problems to deal with,a note and warning to all,conscious Its worth a read of these womens stories..


..

I just want to point out that this websites domain name is registered to a lady that is a pro-life campaigner here in Ireland.
But of course the actual site makes no mention of this or that it has links to pro-life campaign.

http://www.tallyman.ie/?p=1395

Zombrex

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont understand where this perception of the foetus is coming from. "Permission" doesn't apply to the foetus growing in the mother by virtue of the fact that it is a biological outcome of an act the mother chooses to do. Its like getting putting on weight as a result of a bad diet - you don't question the right of fat to deposit on your stomach after you eat junk food. The foetus doesn't choose to be created, it's not its' fault that it's dependent on the mother to survive.

If it was simply a biological outcome of the mother's actions then she could act without any issue. I eat food, I get fat, I have liposuction on my stomach.

The anti-abortion argument is that such an action on the woman's body interferes with another person. Which introduces the rights of this other person. So the question becomes does this person have the right to be inside of the woman's body in the first place and to prevent the woman having a medical procedure on her own body that results in its removal. Even if the woman initially consents to pregnancy (ie has consensual sex) that doesn't mean she cannot change her mind.

Other than the parental responsibility argument I've yet to see an argument that ethically justifies this.

The issue of "fault" is irrelevant. Its not my fault I get kidney disease, that doesn't mean I can have your kidney, even if I might die with out it. The foetus is not being blamed for being in the woman, that isn't the issue. The issue is does it have a right to remain there against the woman's wishes.

christmas2012

The foetus is not being blamed for being in the woman, that isn't the issue. The issue is does it have a right to remain there against the woman's wishes.

The foetus is a natural occurance after having sex without protection,if that is the case then she should think about using the pill and a condom..

Zombrex

christmas2012 wrote: »

http://womenhurt.ie/?page_id=150


a good website for anybody who is considering abortion,it can give you a new set of problems to deal with,a note and warning to all,conscious sedation does not always have the desired effect,sometimes there are bits you can remember and with a horribly invasive procedure you shouldnt have to but it can happen,pain is something that every woman that has an abortion experiences as all you get is one measly paracetemol afterwards,which im afraid doesnt do the trick.

That is true of any medical procedure. Are you suggesting we stop all surgery due to the risk that the patient may experience pain during or after it?

I recently had a colonoscopy. The first time I had one 5 years ago I slept through the entire thing. This time, despite being sedated, I was not so lucky. It was rather painful. Thankfully I started to forget the pain soon after it was finished (I only remember that it was painful because I remember making a mental note that it was painful, which I can remember doing, I can't actually remember the procedure which is common for sedation)

No medical procedure is risk free. Women of course should be educated about the risks, but in a reasonable fashion not as a way of scaring them into not having a procedure that is by and large completely safe and pain free, any more than I should start telling everyone to not have colonoscopies because I had a bad experience with one, an experience only a tiny minority of people will share.

Zombrex

christmas2012 wrote: »

The foetus is a natural occurance after having sex without protection,if that is the case then she should think about using the pill and a condom..

Or she should just have an abortion. You have yet to explain why a woman should suffer just for suffering sake.

iguana

hattoncracker wrote: »

If I hadn't had the money I probably would have done the same but it's frightening how desperate you become in this situation.

I can definitely understand why someone would attempt to do it but it's really quite terrifying as so much could go wrong. Even in the best case scenario where the pills are what they claim to be and the woman won't have a negative reaction to them, the timing is unlikely to work out. At most a woman would have 5 weeks to order the pills and have them arrive to her. That's cutting it so close to the wire that I suspect a lot of women who take this route are taking the pills well beyond 7 weeks gestation. I don't know exactly what the consequences of this would be, but I suspect a lot could go wrong if the pills are taken too late.:(

Sin City

Zombrex wrote: »

Or she should just have an abortion. You have yet to explain why a woman should suffer just for suffering sake.

hi zombrex

you make it sound like its a growth that should be taken out rather than a life ,
so its not suffering for suffering sake , its giving your potential dna replica protection and a chance to reach its.potential

iguana

At the end of the day this whole argument is completely academic. The simple fact is that no matter what I or anybody else thinks, if a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy and she really wants to terminate that pregnancy, then that's most likely what she will do. That is a fact.

What we as a society have to decide is whether we want to continue to sweep this under the carpet, while the women who abort have to travel abroad, self-medicate with what are very possibly dodgy pills ordered online, attempt herbal abortions from recipes they found in books or online, throw themselves down staircases after drinking a bottle of gin in the bath, stick coat hangers up themselves or book backstreet abortions. Because that's the reality, that's what women in this country do every single day.

Surely whichever side of the pro-life/pro-choice debate you come down on you have to conclude that as the reality is that as long as there are unwanted pregnancies there will be abortions, then it is best that those abortions happen near home, in safe, sterile conditions, with follow-up medical support and shame free counselling if needed. While at the same time we ensure that everyone has comprehensive, factual sexual education and freely available contraceptives in order to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

fatmammycat

Sin City wrote: »

hi zombrex

you make it sound like its a growth that should be taken out rather than a life ,
so its not suffering for suffering sake , its giving your potential dna replica protection and a chance to reach its.potential

It is suffering if you don't want to give this dna replica your body in which to develop. It's not that hard to understand that unwanted pregnancy naturally puts women under great stress.

Tipsygypsy

iguana wrote: »

At the end of the day this whole argument is completely academic. The simple fact is that no matter what I or anybody else thinks, if a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy and she really wants to terminate that pregnancy, then that's most likely what she will do. That is a fact.

What we as a society have to decide is whether we want to continue to sweep this under the carpet, while the women who abort have to travel abroad, self-medicate with what are very possibly dodgy pills ordered online, attempt herbal abortions from recipes they found in books or online, throw themselves down staircases after drinking a bottle of gin in the bath, stick coat hangers up themselves or book backstreet abortions. Because that's the reality, that's what women in this country do every single day.

Surely whichever side of the pro-life/pro-choice debate you come down on you have to conclude that as the reality is that as long as there are unwanted pregnancies there will be abortions, then it is best that those abortions happen near home, in safe, sterile conditions, with follow-up medical support and shame free counselling if needed. While at the same time we ensure that everyone has comprehensive, factual sexual education and freely available contraceptives in order to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

This. Exactly this. Well said.

Sin City

fatmammycat wrote: »

It is suffering if you don't want to give this dna replica your body in which to develop. It's not that hard to understand that unwanted pregnancy naturally puts women under great stress.

so its ok to terminate a life if your stressed?

Bannasidhe

fatmammycat wrote: »

It is suffering if you don't want to give this dna replica your body in which to develop. It's not that hard to understand that unwanted pregnancy naturally puts women under great stress.

I think for some people it actually is.

Unless one has experienced the gut-churning fear that one is pregnant and doesn't want to be it is hard to understand. I have known young women who felt their life was over because contraception failed. It is an awful, scary place to be.

Unless one has been pregnant I don't think one understands the physical cost paid by a woman's body or the mental stress placed upon her.

But that is no reason that a bit of basic human empathy cannot come into play. A bit of 'how would I feel if...' wouldn't go amiss.

It is easy to see why many women feel they are being treated as incubators when so little regard is paid to them, to their lives, their hopes, their dreams - Their Potential.

fatmammycat

Sin City wrote: »

so its ok to terminate a life if your stressed?

Sure, why not? It's not an actual life anyway, it is, as you said, dna with the potential to become life, IF allowed by the host.

marienbad

Sin City wrote: »

so its ok to terminate a life if your stressed?

I presume so if you do not think it is a life .