Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Sin City

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I think for some people it actually is.

Unless one has experienced the gut-churning fear that one is pregnant and doesn't want to be it is hard to understand. I have known young women who felt their life was over because contraception failed. It is an awful, scary place to be.

Unless one has been pregnant I don't think one understands the physical cost paid by a woman's body or the mental stress placed upon her.

But that is no reason that a bit of basic human empathy cannot come into play. A bit of 'how would I feel if...' wouldn't go amiss.

It is easy to see why many women feel they are being treated as incubators when so little regard is paid to them, to their lives, their hopes, their dreams - Their Potential.

I understand your points and can empathise, but then you end with ruining their potential , surely having a baby doesn't mean your life stops you can not do anymore ?
surely you can ,

but the child that has been aborted, its.potential is taken away

Sin City

fatmammycat wrote: »

Sure, why not? It's not an actual life anyway, it is, as you said, dna with the potential to become life, IF allowed by the host.

that's just it , not one can tell when life,actually starts and if there is a transformation from life into human life , if it has to transform

Sin City

marienbad wrote: »

I presume so if you do not think it is a life .

but lets say it is a life ,do you think then its ok ?

marienbad

Sin City wrote: »

but lets say it is a life ,do you think then its ok ?

That is a meaningless question . Let me rephrase it for you- lets say it is not a person do you think then it is ok ?

Bannasidhe

Sin City wrote: »

I understand your points and can empathise, but then you end with ruining their potential , surely having a baby doesn't mean your life stops you can not do anymore ?
surely you can ,

but the child that has been aborted, its.potential is taken away

Tell that to the women who had to leave school/college because they got pregnant.

Tell that to the women who, even if they could get a job, can't afford the childcare that would allow them to go to work.

What about their potential?

Your life may not stop but the life you had and the life you dreamed of are at best on pause while your focus becomes the care of this new person.

5 years later when they start school all you are is 5 years older, with any skills you had out of date competing in a job market when you have been left behind or trying to struggle with further education all complicated by good ol' Irish cripplingly expensive childcare costs.

Find a childminder to collect little person from school, Rush home, cook dinner for little person, do 'homework', wash them, put them to bed. Then you get to sit down - have an essay to do for Uni? - pray they don't wake up then.

Next day - do it all over again. No time off.

Life will never be the same. That's fine if that is one's choice but to have that choice forced upon you against your will - how can that be reasonable?

Sin City

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Tell that to the women who had to leave school/college because they got pregnant.

Tell that to the women who, even if they could get a job, can't afford the childcare that would allow them to go to work.

What about their potential?

Your life may not stop but the life you had and the life you dreamed of are at best on pause while your focus becomes the care of this new person.

5 years later when they start school all you are is 5 years older, with any skills you had out of date competing in a job market when you have been left behind or trying to struggle with further education all complicated by good ol' Irish cripplingly expensive childcare costs.

Find a childminder to collect little person from school, Rush home, cook dinner for little person, do 'homework', wash them, put them to bed. Then you get to sit down - have an essay to do for Uni? - pray they don't wake up then.

Next day - do it all over again. No time off.

Life will never be the same. That's fine if that is one's choice but to have that choice forced upon you against your will - how can that be reasonable?

I know all to well that life , I am living it myself. Plenty of people do it. There are support structures in place to help people out in this situation (admittidly the help is being reduced over the recession)

Does her life being on pause for a few years mean its ok then to terminate the PP?

Sin City

marienbad wrote: »

That is a meaningless question . Let me rephrase it for you- lets say it is not a person do you think then it is ok ?

Not realy, if a law was passed tomorrow that life does actually start at conception would you deem it ok to kill due to stress?

Rememebr all that has changed is the law, the physiology remains the same

fisgon

Sin City wrote: »

You go about an ability to deal with complexity but you then go on to say its all your own personal view.

Yes I admit that at the moment we cant tell when a person is there, its all opinion at the moment, but I keep saying its a proto person or potential person, the whole point seems to be lost on you

Tell me this , if at 6 months a pregnant woman is shot and the baby is lossed , is that not fetal homicide, double homicide if both die?

Yes, proto- or potential-person, not a full person. You've answered your own question.

The point is not lost on me at all. I get what you're saying. You want a definite date, you want to be able to say at one particular point, "This is a person". What I am saying is that this is unrealistic. There is no cut off point, besides birth. Between conception and birth is a gradual development towards personhood. I think I am being very clear. A six month old foetus is closer to being a person than a two week old embryo, though still not fully there.

As for the double homicide question, why choose 6 months? As i understand it, if you're against abortion, then you're against it at any time, even a five day old embryo. Would you call it double homicide if it involved a woman pregnant with a five day old embryo? To me that is ludicrous.

marienbad

Sin City wrote: »

Not realy, if a law was passed tomorrow that life does actually start at conception would you deem it ok to kill due to stress?

Rememebr all that has changed is the law, the physiology remains the same

I don't care about stress, I never brought it up. And we don't need a law saying that life starts at conception - we effectively have had that since the foundation of the state.

So people as they do now will go to a jurisdiction that does allow abortion .

You are constantly using life and person interchangeably , not all people agree with that and therein is the issue .

christmas2012

what about the potential of the life inside her,and it doesnt mean her life has to stop there is support out ther for new mothers,there are groups,there are friends there is family and childcare if you can afford it..

At the end of the day this whole argument is completely academic.

there are always options,i dont think a knee jerk reaction of abortion is nessecarily the right choice to make,women can get stung by abortion,abortion is not only just a word,and i have to disagree its not purely academic,you take away the pain of the procedure by saying that,the fracturing of relationships because of it,so no i wouldnt agree its not purely academic.Im sure there are some that do agree with you though,having said all that im not anti abortion,i think abortion should be for those who need it,ie rape victims those bearing handicaps etc..

Bannasidhe

Sin City wrote: »

I know all to well that life , I am living it myself. Plenty of people do it. There are support structures in place to help people out in this situation (admittidly the help is being reduced over the recession)

Does her life being on pause for a few years mean its ok then to terminate the PP?

Missed the bit where I said 'on pause at best' did you?

Is it ok for a woman to be forced to have a child she doesn't want because you have an issue with abortion?
No. It isn't.

You are against abortions - then don't you ever have one.

Women can decide for themselves and should be allowed the choice.

Sin City

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Missed the bit where I said 'on pause at best' did you?

Is it ok for a woman to be forced to have a child she doesn't want because you have an issue with abortion?
No. It isn't.

You are against abortions - then don't you ever have one.

Women can decide for themselves and should be allowed the choice.

I didnt miss it, I said it as you said it.

Ok no need to get sarky (last line)

This is a debate , nothing to be taken personaly. am not trying to push my opinion and force people to have abortions or not.

For the record I think its right for a woman to have her baby rather than terminate it

eviltwin

I see Christmas is back peddling her rubbish again. I feel sorry for your friend who had a terrible time of it, its like any procedure, there are risks. I am sure there are many women who ended up with botched boob jobs for example and had to suffer pain etc afterwards but that doesn't mean every women who gets a boob job will end up the same way.

I have told my experience, Hatton Cracker has told hers, we have nothing to gain by lying, if anything I think women should know all the details of abortion so they can make an informed choice and to take the fear out of it. Why would we lie and pretend it was something it wasn't?

Sin City

fisgon wrote: »

Yes, proto- or potential-person, not a full person. You've answered your own question.

The point is not lost on me at all. I get what you're saying. You want a definite date, you want to be able to say at one particular point, "This is a person". What I am saying is that this is unrealistic. There is no cut off point, besides birth. Between conception and birth is a gradual development towards personhood. I think I am being very clear. A six month old foetus is closer to being a person than a two week old embryo, though still not fully there.

As for the double homicide question, why choose 6 months? As i understand it, if you're against abortion, then you're against it at any time, even a five day old embryo. Would you call it double homicide if it involved a woman pregnant with a five day old embryo? To me that is ludicrous.

I understand there is a " personhood begins at 7 months 4 days 5 hours and 2 mins, but surely there is some point before birth that it can be classed a a human life. For that matter how would you define human life, what are the charecteristics to be human and to be a lifeform?

Now as for the second part, I read somewhere on this thread that someone said that around 7 months the foretus can be classed as alomst human or something similer so I just used 6 months as an example( fetus can be felt and seen kicking moving around and most resembles a human from here on) that and there have been cases where a person has been charged with a diuble homicide in this instance(I havent found any younger double homicdes as of yet , but I will post link when/if I do

I understand what you mean about a five day embryo, its a bunch of cells more resembling a growth than a person, but it will develop into a person and I believe that it should have rights to enable and protect it to do so

Sin City

Can I just add I dont want anyone to feel that I am condeming them if they have or know someone who had an abortion. Im just having a moral ethical or philosophical debate on the subject and in no way am I attacking anyone personally

Bannasidhe

Sin City wrote: »

I didnt miss it, I said it as you said it.

Ok no need to get sarky (last line)

This is a debate , nothing to be taken personaly. am not trying to push my opinion and force people to have abortions or not.

For the record I think its right for a woman to have her baby rather than terminate it

I would love if there was no need for abortion. I really would. But that would mean that I would be wishing for the impossible - can I wish away rape? Can I wish into existence a perfect world? No.

I can advocate that this world be a bit kinder to women and treat them as adults capable of deciding what happens their own bodies.

The reality is some women do not want, for a wide variety of reasons, to be pregnant and some of those women take desperate measures. The old horror stories about wire hangers are true.
Women are buying medications online now are putting their lives at risk so desperate are they.

Would you prefer a woman put her life at serious risk rather than be pregnant? That is the sad reality. Women have always tried to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. The least we can do is ensure that they don't die in the attempt.

Sin City

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would love if there was no need for abortion. I really would. But that would mean that I would be wishing for the impossible - can I wish away rape? Can I wish into existence a perfect world? No.

I can advocate that this world be a bit kinder to women and treat them as adults capable of deciding what happens their own bodies.

The reality is some women do not want, for a wide variety of reasons, to be pregnant and some of those women take desperate measures. The old horror stories about wire hangers are true.
Women are buying medications online now are putting their lives at risk so desperate are they.

Would you prefer a woman put her life at serious risk rather than be pregnant? That is the sad reality. Women have always tried to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. The least we can do is ensure that they don't die in the attempt.

I know and its a sad state of affairs , and.I'm aware in the real world emotions are involved

id.prefer to see proper support structures in place to help those with unwanted pregnancies rather than have them "self abort"

eviltwin

Sin City wrote: »

I know and its a sad state of affairs , and.I'm aware in the real world emotions are involved

id.prefer to see proper support structures in place to help those with unwanted pregnancies rather than have them "self abort"

But we don't live in a country with those supports and we have to deal with the here and now. A family with a child with special needs will find very little help and support, a woman who is going to have to raise the child alone will be dealing with very little welfare and virtually no support if she wants to work or go to college, a family with another child they can't afford won't be given enough money to raise it.

Things are pretty dire right now and I am scared to think how much worse its going to get over the next few years.

So if a woman decides having looked into all the options that abortion is the best one why force her to have a baby she doesn't want? Why not just accept she is able to make her own decisions and respect that and not treat her like some idiot who needs to be told what is best for her?

Bannasidhe

Sin City wrote: »

I know and its a sad state of affairs , and.I'm aware in the real world emotions are involved

id.prefer to see proper support structures in place to help those with unwanted pregnancies rather than have them "self abort"

So would I. But we must also recognise that no matter how many support structures are there, sometimes women will still try and end the pregnancy. They shouldn't have to die for that - not when we can prevent it.

Sin City

eviltwin wrote: »

But we don't live in a country with those supports and we have to deal with the here and now. A family with a child with special needs will find very little help and support, a woman who is going to have to raise the child alone will be dealing with very little welfare and virtually no support if she wants to work or go to college, a family with another child they can't afford won't be given enough money to raise it.

Things are pretty dire right now and I am scared to think how much worse its going to get over the next few years.

So if a woman decides having looked into all the options that abortion is the best one why force her to have a baby she doesn't want? Why not just accept she is able to make her own decisions and respect that and not treat her like some idiot who needs to be told what is best for her?

because to me.life.is sacred (non religious way ) and hardship should not mean death. said woman could give the child up for adoption. I realise once its born attachments form and adoption could be that much harder but still wouldnt it be better to give the childs a chance.at life ?

Fizzlesque

professore wrote: »

Adoption? Than it's just 9 months.

It most definitely is not 'just' nine months with adoption - it's the rest of [at least] two people's lives. Adoption isn't the neat little repercussion-free solution some people seem to think it is.

Take severe emotional trauma, treble it, add the fact it's never, ever going to go away, realise the emotions involved have chameleon tendencies, capable of shape shifting endlessly to ensure confusion and fresh pain is always in ready supply and waiting to catch you when you least expect, then you might just begin to to have the ingredients required to begin to paint an accurate picture - trust me, there's no "just nine months" about it, not by a long chalk.

Sin City

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So would I. But we must also recognise that no matter how many support structures are there, sometimes women will still try and end the pregnancy. They shouldn't have to die for that - not when we can prevent it.

that's my.point , no one should have to die though . in a perfect world we could have support structures and maybe help change any stigma that may be attached

eviltwin

Sin City wrote: »

because to me.life.is sacred (non religious way ) and hardship should not mean death. said woman could give the child up for adoption. I realise once its born attachments form and adoption could be that much harder but still wouldnt it be better to give the childs a chance.at life ?

Thats great if you are someone who can do that. I think putting a child up for adoption is the most selfless thing any woman can do but its not something I would have been able to do. I would have gone insane. I wasn't prepared to put the children I did have through that either or through the trauma of having to deal with me and the mental fallout of it. For me abortion was the right thing to do and I resent being told it was wrong.

UDP

Sin City wrote: »

that's my.point , no one should have to die though . in a perfect world we could have support structures and maybe help change any stigma that may be attached

But we are not living in a perfect world and will never live in a perfect world thus you must accept then the reality of the world we do live in. If we accept that the world is and never will be perfect then we must try and help people out in the world that we have. We know some women will try and have abortions due to unwanted pregnancies (whether as a result of rape or for loads of other reasons). We are not helping the situation by pretending we can somehow change their minds or dictate to them what to do thus we need to help them get through it in the most humane way possible. It is their choice and their body ultimately.

Sin City

eviltwin wrote: »

Thats great if you are someone who can do that. I think putting a child up for adoption is the most selfless thing any woman can do but its not something I would have been able to do. I would have gone insane. I wasn't prepared to put the children I did have through that either or through the trauma of having to deal with me and the mental fallout of it. For me abortion was the right thing to do and I resent being told it was wrong.

please don't use personal expierences in this debate because if I disagree it could be seen as an attack which I'm not trying to do .

I understand though its easier to get rid once its not seen and no attachment is made , it would in that case be more psychologicaly damaging , but at least the child has a chance of life

marienbad

Sin City wrote: »

please don't use personal expierences in this debate because if I disagree it could be seen as an attack which I'm not trying to do .

I understand though its easier to get rid once its not seen and no attachment is made , it would in that case be more psychologicaly damaging , but at least the child has a chance of life

Sin City - here you are using potential and actual life interchangeably yet again.

Do you accept that others have an opinion different than yours and if so why would you want to force your opinion on them ?

eviltwin

Sin City wrote: »

please don't use personal expierences in this debate because if I disagree it could be seen as an attack which I'm not trying to do .

I understand though its easier to get rid once its not seen and no attachment is made , it would in that case be more psychologicaly damaging , but at least the child has a chance of life

But you are talking about real people here not some kind of abstract what if situation so of course its going to be personal. And I think part of the problem with the abortion debate is its too focused on the "when does life begin" side of things without taking enough of an interest in the human stories of real people who make this decision every single day.

I can totally understand the point of view of those who want to give a child a chance, I don't for one second have any illusions that what I did was get rid of a bunch of cells, I know it was a baby - thats part of the reason it was so hard to do it and come to terms with it - but for that reason I took a long time thinking it over and it always came back to this one thing that deep down I knew was right for me.

Some people would say I was being selfish, I was in some ways but it wasn't just me in the equation, there are always other people to consider. The baby is just one and cannot always be put before the needs of people who are in the here and now.

Btw I know you are not making digs or passing judgement on anyone, you've been very reasoned and respectful in your debate which is much appreciated

robindch

Zombrex wrote: »

Even if the woman initially consents to pregnancy (ie has consensual sex) that doesn't mean she cannot change her mind.

And, in the case of fully consensual, unprotected sex that results in a pregnancy, what about the rights of the father? Are there any? Or does he have none?

Should there be an ethical requirement that the father is at least informed about the pregnancy? And, knowing about it, should he have an equal right to decide the future of the fetus? It's his genetic material given a kind of life too. Or is it the mother's decision alone? And what happens if the father changes his mind -- should the mother abort? Or if she's allowed to refuse, then isn't there an inequality of rights here?

Should there be a default deal -- thinking out loud here -- like, having morally and physically equated the hardship of pregnancy with the hardship of parenthood (whether it's right to do so or not being a different question, and assuming the father is willing), that the father is offered the chance to receive the child upon birth and bring it up himself alone, the mother renouncing all rights?

carpejugulum

Irrational nonsense like opposition to any kind of abortion seems to linger longer than religiosity itself although total ban on abortion is solely based on religious beliefs.

eviltwin

robindch wrote: »

And, in the case of fully consensual, unprotected sex that results in a pregnancy, what about the rights of the father? Are there any? Or does he have none?

Should there be an ethical requirement that the father is at least informed about the pregnancy? And, knowing about it, should he have an equal right to decide the future of the fetus? It's his genetic material given a kind of life too. Or is it the mother's decision alone? And what happens if the father changes his mind -- should the mother abort? Or if she's allowed to refuse, then isn't there an inequality of rights here?

Should there be a default deal -- thinking out loud here -- like, having morally and physically equated the hardship of pregnancy with the hardship of parenthood (whether it's right to do so or not being a different question, and assuming the father is willing), that the father is offered the chance to receive the child upon birth and bring it up himself alone, the mother renouncing all rights?

Not sure he has any rights, as its not a legal child until 28 weeks or thereabouts. Yeah its sad when a man is willing to take the child on and a woman aborts anyway - I've read some accounts from men in that situation and its heartbreaking but its ultimately her body that will have to deal with the pregnancy and her life that will be altered in the short term. If it was simply an unwanted baby then maybe but when its the pregnancy thats unwanted I don't know what you can do. Try and force the issue and women will just not tell men they are pregnant at all, many already do and he is none the wiser.