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Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

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    #4262
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    All we can do is ensure intentional killing of unborn babies remains illegal in our wee country. thats what this campaign is all about...

    So abortion is okay so long as it happens in another country, its just abortions in Ireland you object to ?


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    #4263
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »

    All we can do is ensure intentional killing of unborn babies remains illegal in our wee country. thats what this campaign is all about...
    What about the born? Why should a 14 year old raped child have to endure pregnancy and childbirth? Do you care about those children at all?


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    #4264
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    All we can do is ensure intentional killing of unborn babies remains illegal in our wee country. thats what this campaign is all about...


    So, no basically. Women get back in your box, your opinions and choices are irrelevant as long as they conflict with our moral positions.

    Thanks for the clarification.


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    #4265
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Notihng about abortion being recommended as a suitable 'treatment'. Nice try though...:)

    Of course a psychiatrist wouldn't, on a professional level, recommend someone have an abortion, that would be outside of the remit of their position. Their role, if their help is sought, is to help their patient make their own decision, not to tell them what to do. Have you the first clue about the role of a psychiatrist? :confused:


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    #4266
    Flier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Flier


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Clearly you hadn't a clue but swallowed the Probort propagande. They saw you coming...

    Terminations of pregnancy happen and are justified in Irish hospitals when the life of the mother is in danger. Sadly sometimes the baby dies as an unintentional consequance.

    Next..?

    Hate to burst your bubble Silvio, but in the surgical treatment for an ectopic pregnancy, the intention is to remove the pregnancy - to abort the pregnancy. It is not unintentional that the baby dies.


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    #4267
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Where's the psychaitric paper saying that aborting a rape pregnancy won't improve the state of mind of a 14 year old rape victim?

    Have you ever been pregnant Silvio? It's weird, even for someone who wants the baby. It kicks you. Can you try to step outside your viewpoint for just one moment and imagine how horrific that would be for a little girl who was attacked, brutalized, and impregnated then forced to carry that baby until it was kicking her from the inside.

    She's already had her own body taken from her and used by someone else, now she has to endure that use for a full nine months.


    Apologies for missing this.

    A rape victim has already been heinously violated. An abortion is yet another violation while at the same time its not recommended treatment Psychiatrically and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...:(


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    #4268
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »


    Apologies for missing this.

    A rape victim has already been heinously violated. An abortion is yet another violation while at the same time its not recommended treatment Psychiatrically and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...:(
    Why would you force a 14 year old raped child to be violated by pregnancy and childbirth?


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    #4269
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    eviltwin wrote: »
    So abortion is okay so long as it happens in another country, its just abortions in Ireland you object to ?
    Alas we have no influence on abortion laws in other countries...


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    #4270
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Its cnclusion is...:

    "The finding that the incidence rate of psychiatric contact was similar before and

    after a first-trimester abortion does not support the hypothesis that there is an increased

    risk of mental disorders after a first-trimester induced abortion"

    Notihng about abortion being recommended as a suitable 'treatment'. Nice try though...:)

    As a general rule, research scientists don't use study papers to make clinical recommendations. Nice try though.

    The evidence is there. However, since it is difficult to the point of impossible to predict in advance whether or not a pregnant woman who carries the foetus to term will experience psychological problems, recommending any kind of treatment would be unwise.

    The reality of the situation however is that abortion cannot be considered a solution in every case or even in most cases. So abortion is not going to be considered a standard treatment for psychological problems in pregnancy. However, there are a number of cases, albeit small, where abortion may be the best solution for the patient. In these situations doctors must possess the freedom to make the right clinical decision for the patient.


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    #4271
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Methody wrote: »
    He/she should count themselves lucky.

    Absolutely! He/She has an open minded, non judgemental mother who is not indoctrinating He/She! A lot luckier than youngsters dragged along for the religious fanatic, anti choice demonstration!


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    #4272
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Apologies for missing this.

    A rape victim has already been heinously violated. An abortion is yet another violation while at the same time its not recommended treatment Psychiatrically and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...:(

    You make it sound like being raped means she is no longer capable of making up her own mind and would regret it. :confused:


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    #4273
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »

    Absolutely! He/She has an open minded, non judgemental mother who is not indoctrinating He/She! A lot luckier than youngsters dragged along for the religious fanatic, anti choice demonstration!
    I really am an amazing parent.


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    #4274
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Flier wrote: »
    Hate to burst your bubble Silvio, but in the surgical treatment for an ectopic pregnancy, the intention is to remove the pregnancy - to abort the pregnancy. It is not unintentional that the baby dies.


    It is never the intention to kill the unborn baby in these circumstances, while sometimes it is an inevitable, tragic consequence...


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    #4275
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why would you force a 14 year old raped child to be violated by pregnancy and childbirth?

    Because it isn't proven that id does her Psychiatric good and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...


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    #4276
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Apologies for missing this.

    A rape victim has already been heinously violated. An abortion is yet another violation while at the same time its not recommended treatment Psychiatrically and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...:(

    Abortion is a violation even if it is the expressed choice of the rape victim?

    No-one should be forced to have an abortion. That is a violation. No-one should be forced to continue with a pregnancy up to the point where the fetus is independantly viable. That is a violation.

    Letting a rape victim have an abortion as her free choice is a no more a violation of her freedom as an actual existing human being to express her own choice and opinion han it would be for her to continue with the pregnancy to term.


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    #4277
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    It is never the intention to kill the unborn baby in these circumstances, while sometimes it is an inevitable, tragic consequence...

    So in addition to not having the first clue about the role of psychiatry you also don't have the first clue about ectopic pregnancies. You really need to educate yourself about what you are posting about before you continue posting because you are doing neither yourself nor your cause any favours with the nonsense way you are debating this.


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    #4278
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Because it isn't proven that id does her Psychiatric good and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...

    This......makes no sense. Are you a psychiatrist with a background in treating suicidal rape victims? Tell me why, if a 14 year old child has been raped and becomes pregnant, and knows herself an abortion will prevent her from killing herself, she should be forced to remain pregnant and give birth? Pregnancy and birth is not some fairy dust pathway that you just skip down and pop out a baby at the end of. Pregnancy, even a much wanted and planned one, is pretty damn hard on your body and some women have lifelong side effects. Why do you think children should be forced to remain pregnant?

    Do you support the repeal of the right to travel? Are you worried about women taking their unborn babies out of the country to kill them? Or do you just want to maintain the utter fiction that Ireland is some sort of Utopian country with such a perfect healthcare and support system for women that no woman would ever need an abortion?


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    #4279
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Apologies for missing this.

    A rape victim has already been heinously violated. An abortion is yet another violation while at the same time its not recommended treatment Psychiatrically and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...:(

    Yes a rape victim has been heinously violated, so of course it is in her best interests to insist by law, that the violation lasts a further 9 months after the initial act! Great logic!

    They're all out tonight in here aren't they? Is it a full moon?


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    #4280
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Abortion is a violation even if it is the expressed choice of the rape victim?

    No-one should be forced to have an abortion. That is a violation. No-one should be forced to continue with a pregnancy beyond the point where the fetus is independantly viable. That is a violation.

    Letting a rape victim have an abortion as her free choice is a no more a violation of her freedom as an actual existing human being to express her own choice and opinion han it would be for her to continue with the pregnancy to term.


    Whereas I content no innocent unborn baby should be intentionally killed via a procedure that is not recommended, Psychiatrically...


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    #4281
    Flier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Flier


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    It is never the intention to kill the unborn baby in these circumstances, while sometimes it is an inevitable, tragic consequence...

    I am sorry if this has come as a shock to you, but there is no effort made to save the baby/foetus, it is acknowledged before surgery that the baby/foetus will die, and it always happens, it is not a 'sometimes inevitable' consequence. I really wish the extremists on the pro life side would just be honest with themselves. An abortion to save the life of the mother is an abortion. Calling it a 'termination' is just a euphemism that makes them feel better and not face the reality of the situation.


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    #4282
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    iguana wrote: »
    So in addition to not having the first clue about the role of psychiatry you also don't have the first clue about ectopic pregnancies. You really need to educate yourself about what you are posting about before you continue posting because you are doing neither yourself nor your cause any favours with the nonsense way you are debating this.

    There is no intention to kill the unborn baby...


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    #4283
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Because it isn't proven that id does her Psychiatric good and it results in the intentional killing of her innocent unborn baby...

    Despite the extreme trauma she has gone through a rape victim still knows her own mind. Women aren't stupid. Most will know with a pregnancy what they want to do with it no matter if the father is someone they had sex with by consent or not. Implying that a woman who has been raped needs to be somehow protected from making decisions that she may not be thinking through is an insult.


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    #4284
    _rebelkid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭_rebelkid


    What annoys me is Pro-Life people saying that rape victims will learn the joy of life, and will let someone enjoy that by putting their child up for adoption.

    If they had any idea about bonds, they will see that they will more than likely keep the child. They will keep the constant reminder of the, as was put by an earlier poster, "violation"; every time they look at the child they will see the face of their rapist. They will be "violated" everyday of their lives.

    The idea that it is "killing babies" is just a show-up of bias. At 4 days after conception, it is not a baby. When the primitive streak forms, it is not a baby. When it is born, it IS a baby. No one is going around maternity wards an killing new borns.

    Pro-choice is not pro-abort. Saying that is like saying democracy is communism.

    Just my opinion, fell free to dissect :)


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    #4285
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Whereas I content no innocent unborn baby should be intentionally killed via a procedure that is not recommended, Psychiatrically...

    What about innocent born children who've been raped and are pregnant, and want to kill themselves? Do you care about them at all, or is the goal to deliver a live baby at all costs, medical, physical or mental?


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    #4286
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    lazygal wrote: »
    This......makes no sense. Are you a psychiatrist with a background in treating suicidal rape victims? Tell me why, if a 14 year old child has been raped and becomes pregnant, and knows herself an abortion will prevent her from killing herself, she should be forced to remain pregnant and give birth? Pregnancy and birth is not some fairy dust pathway that you just skip down and pop out a baby at the end of. Pregnancy, even a much wanted and planned one, is pretty damn hard on your body and some women have lifelong side effects. Why do you think children should be forced to remain pregnant?

    Do you support the repeal of the right to travel? Are you worried about women taking their unborn babies out of the country to kill them? Or do you just want to maintain the utter fiction that Ireland is some sort of Utopian country with such a perfect healthcare and support system for women that no woman would ever need an abortion?

    We have to fight battles we can win. We feel opposing X is feasible with a co-ordinated campaign. time will tell if wesucceed...


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    #4287
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    We have to fight battles we can win. We feel opposing X is feasible with a co-ordinated campaign. time will tell if wesucceed...

    Does the fact the Irish people voted in favour of abortion not count for anything?


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    #4288
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Flier wrote: »
    I am sorry if this has come as a shock to you, but there is no effort made to save the baby/foetus, it is acknowledged before surgery that the baby/foetus will die, and it always happens, it is not a 'sometimes inevitable' consequence. I really wish the extremists on the pro life side would just be honest with themselves. An abortion to save the life of the mother is an abortion. Calling it a 'termination' is just a euphemism that makes them feel better and not face the reality of the situation.

    Sometimes if the baby is delievered too early via the termination then clearly he/she won't survive. But the intention of the termination is to save the life of the mother and rightly so...


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    #4289
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Whereas I content no innocent unborn baby should be intentionally killed via a procedure that is not recommended, Psychiatrically...

    So you'll just continue to pretend that the thousands of Irish women who travel to the U.K. for abortions every year simply don't exist.

    Abortion is common. Abortion is real. Most Irish abortions do not rely on psychiatric reports to happen. They happen in the U.K. legally. They happen in Ireland illegally via pills in the post or other unreliable and dangerous means.


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    #4290
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    lazygal wrote: »
    What about innocent born children who've been raped and are pregnant, and want to kill themselves? Do you care about them at all, or is the goal to deliver a live baby at all costs, medical, physical or mental?


    they should be given every help medically both during and after the pregnancy...


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    #4291
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    lazygal wrote: »
    Does the fact the Irish people voted in favour of abortion not count for anything?

    This is about the proposed legislation for X. Something we oppose vehemently. Hence the wonderful turnout tonight...:)


This discussion has been closed.
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