Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Silvio.Dante

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Maybe it's because you're the only one here who sees life on these terms:

Looks like it, doesn't it..?

Bannasidhe

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

All I can do is call myself out when I mess up, which I have done.

How you take it is up to you...

Don't even dare and attempt to twist this so you are the victim and I am taking you up incorrectly.

"Agents of baby killing can expect direct action from impassioned advocates of Life...". is a clear and unequivocal statement which you retracted when you realised that perhaps you spoke rashly. Which you did.

However, in the light of the fact that those same US funders of organisations such as YD have also engaged in 'direct action' - including murder - your statement is indicative of the thinking of these groups.

The most common form of domestic terrorism in the U.S. is violent attacks on abortion clinics. Between 1973 and 2003, over 300 abortion providers were the target of acts of extreme violence by anti-abortion groups

http://bigthink.com/dollars-and-sex/terror-attacks-on-abortion-clinics-do-little-to-reduce-abortion-rates

Rachelle Shannon, an antiabortion extremist in prison for trying to murder a doctor, has been charged in 10 arson and acid attacks at abortion clinics in the West, the Justice Department said yesterday

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/abortviolence/stories/shannon.htm

The Ladies Center Clinic has been at the center of antiabortion violence for nearly three decades. In 1984, the clinic was destroyed by a pipe bomb. In 1994, antiabortion activist Paul Hill shot and killed a physician at the clinic.

The NAF data suggests that historically, these attacks come in waves, with a spike in extreme violence in 1998 and 1999, and in arsons in 2003 and 2007.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/planned-parenthood-clinic-in-wisconsin-fire-bombed/2012/04/02/gIQASCXWrS_blog.html

Firebombs and murder - this is what your statement condoned. That is what your American friends think is justifiable. That is what you are inviting into our country.

Shame on you!

Silvio.Dante

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Firebombs and murder -

Both of which have never taken place in Ireland and hopefully never will.

I posted a stupid comment. One for which I've withdrawn and apologised for...

The Mad Hatter

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Looks like it, doesn't it..?

Wait, you actually took that seriously?

I was using hyperbole to show you how absurd your position is. Do you actually think that the final image there is one of a baby?

Morag

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I posted a stupid comment. One for which I've withdrawn and apologised for...

I guess you didn't want anyone here to have grounds for discovery under section 8 of the data protection act.

Bannasidhe

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Both of which have never taken place in Ireland and hopefully never will.

I posted a stupid comment. One for which I've withdrawn and apologised for...

Haven't happened yet. You cannot guarantee they will not. You and your fellow pro-birthers are inviting the people who do carry out these acts into our country and allowing them to partake in our national narrative. YD etc are nothing but the mouthpieces of violent US anti-abortionists. You, yourself, have boasted of the availability of US funds.

Perhaps you should think before posting in future.

Perhaps you should also think about the kind of people you are supporting.

Bloodwing

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I have dealt with all of those points, maybe not to your satisfaction, but I have tried.

Care to take on my point about how no one here has had the inclination to view the plight of unborn babies at the mercy of an abortinoists clinic..?

You seem to enjoy using very emotive language in your posts. I'm certainly not in favour of anyone killing babies but that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the abortion of pregnancies. There are massive differences between babies and a fetus.

I don't want a society where for social or economic reasons the only option people feel they have is abortion, but that's something this country needs to look at. What I do want though is a society where those in need of an abortion for medical reasons don't have to do back back flips through loop holes to get the treatment they need.

The truth is though that as a man with no medical background, who has never and will never be pregnant it is difficult if not impossible for me to fully grasp what this is all about and the true implications of abortion. As a result of this I'm looking to the medical profession for their guidance and they are very clearly saying things must change. The groups I won't be looking towards are the clergy and their followers and the self styled "pro-life" crowd because from what I've seen so far they have even less of an understanding than I do.

Silvio.Dante

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Wait, you actually took that seriously?

I was using hyperbole to show you how absurd your position is. Do you actually think that the final image there is one of a baby?

I can't see the image...

Silvio.Dante

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps you should think before posting in future.

Agreed...

Dades

Let's move on from that post which may or may not have advocated violence. The poster has voluntarily deleted it and apologised several times. What has needed to be said about that post, has been said.

Thanks all.

Silvio.Dante

Bloodwing wrote: »

You seem to enjoy using very emotive language in your posts. I'm certainly not in favour of anyone killing babies but that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the abortion of pregnancies. There are massive differences between babies and a fetus.

I don't want a society where for social or economic reasons the only option people feel they have is abortion, but that's something this country needs to look at. What I do want though is a society where those in need of an abortion for medical reasons don't have to do back back flips through loop holes to get the treatment they need.

The truth is though that as a man with no medical background, who has never and will never be pregnant it is difficult if not impossible for me to fully grasp what this is all about and the true implications of abortion. As a result of this I'm looking to the medical profession for their guidance and they are very clearly saying things must change. The groups I won't be looking towards are the clergy and their followers and the self styled "pro-life" crowd because from what I've seen so far they have even less of an understanding than I do.

Nicely thought out reply.

I come at this from a point of view that says abortions happen around the world. Why?

I have yet to hear a reply that, for me, justifies the willful taking of that unborn baby's life. None of the reasons have trumped the baby's right to life that you and I are so lucky to enjoy.

Why take that right from others?

This in no way, for me, contradicts the right of pregnant women to receive the medical treatment required if her life is in danger, that may result in the unintended death of her unborn baby...

robindch

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

The money collected by the Life camapign will obvioulsy be spent on expenses incurred in keeping the intentional killing of unborn babies out of Ireland...

Can you document the cash flows here, please?

Ie, how much money is coming from the USA, how much from Ireland, and what it's being spent on here? As much detail as possible.

aloyisious

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Nicely thought out reply.

I come at this from a point of view that says abortions happen around the world. Why?

I have yet to hear a reply that, for me, justifies the willful taking of that unborn baby's life. None of the reasons have trumped the baby's right to life that you and I are so lucky to enjoy.

Why take that right from others?

This in no way, for me, contradicts the right of pregnant women to receive the medical treatment required if her life is in danger, that may result in the unintended death of her unborn baby...

@Silvio.Dante: If I read and understood your post above correctly, Even though you have not stated it full in print, you differentiate between required medical treatment and a doctor making a value/d medical psychiatric judgement that a threat made by a pregnant woman is genuine when she threaten's suicide if she is put into the position of having to carry a foetus full-term. It strikes me as odd, and this refers to my own position as well, that in either case, the feotus loses out, so the position of yourself (and maybe YD) is that it would be acceptable (in the case of a suicide threat) to gamble both lives rather than make a valued judgement on saving one life.

If that is your position, I'd have to ask you is it your position (and maybe YD's) that the mother should be cared for (voluntarily or otherwise) to ensure no suicide is possible and the foetus is brought to full-term?

kylith

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

To clarify. Committal where a Psychiatrist thinks it best to prevent the threat of self harm...

And where the psychiatrist believes that terminating the pregnancy is the best way to help the woman would you agree with that?

Or, as others have said, where a woman may be unable to take medication during pregnancy, lest it harm the child; should she be allowed to request and have a termination so that she may continue on her medication, or should she be forced to continue her medication, so that she doesn't self harm, and risk the child being born with severe disabilities?

And finally, consider the women who are carrying desperately wanted children, and who find out that the child's physiology is incompatible with life; developed without kidneys or a brain, for example. Should those women be forced to carry to term and give birth to a child who will die in days or even hours, and their short lives will be full of nothing but pain?

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Nigh on 20 pages now and still not one little ost expressing any concern or regret for babies massacred in the womb. Very cold and insensitive place, this...:(

Pages and pages, and not one word expressing concern for women who find themselves suffering from crisis pregnancies. And nothing but scorn for the poster here who was forced, with her 10 month old child, onto the road by pro-life protesters. Very cold and insensitive person, you...

Silvio.Dante

robindch wrote: »

Can you document the cash flows here, please?

Ie, how much money is coming from the USA, how much from Ireland, and what it's being spent on here? As much detail as possible.

Afraid not. I have no access to the accounts...

Silvio.Dante

aloyisious wrote: »

@Silvio.Dante: If I read and understood your post above correctly, Even though you have not stated it full in print, you differentiate between required medical treatment and a doctor making a value/d medical psychiatric judgement that a threat made by a pregnant woman is genuine when she threaten's suicide if she is put into the position of having to carry a foetus full-term. It strikes me as odd, and this refers to my own position as well, that in either case, the feotus loses out, so the position of yourself (and maybe YD) is that it would be acceptable (in the case of a suicide threat) to gamble both lives rather than make a valued judgement on saving one life.

If that is your position, I'd have to ask you is it your position (and maybe YD's) that the mother should be cared for (voluntarily or otherwise) to ensure no suicide is possible and the foetus is brought to full-term?

All medical treatments should be available to ensure, as much as possible, that the mother doesn't harm herself and in turn her unborn baby...

Hotblack Desiato

You really don't appear to have any concern for the wellbeing of the mother apart from a foetal life support system, do you?

Silvio.Dante

kylith wrote: »

And where the psychiatrist believes that terminating the pregnancy is the best way to help the woman would you agree with that?

If you take the word of the Psychiatrists who gave evidence to the Dail Committee, in their combined years of service they've bnever come across a case where an abortion was the road to take.

Also if legislated for, it could lead to floodgates being opened whereby Psychiatrists are pressured into allowing an abortion if an expectant mother claims she will commit suicide.

a) Thats a groosly unfair postition to put a Psychiatrist into and,

b) There a real and present danger this would be the tihn end of the wedge and allow the abortion floodgates to open and then no turning back. A risk too high to take a chance on.

Also why do you think the Daly/Bacik Axis are so keen to bring it in..?

Silvio.Dante

ninja900 wrote: »

You really don't appear to have any concern for the wellbeing of the mother

of course I do...

Bannasidhe

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

All medical treatments should be available to ensure, as much as possible, that the mother doesn't harm herself and in turn her unborn baby...

You haven't answered the question Silvio.

If a situation where vital medical treatment for the mother will cause irreparable harm to a fetus what do you advocate?


A) The woman is provided with the medical treatment she needs rendering the fetus incompatible with life but the pregnancy must continue as abortion is not an option.

The woman is denied treatment to protect the fetus and ensure a live birth and compatibility with life.

C) The health of the woman takes precedence so the pregnancy is terminated as it is not viable.

Call it Silvio...

The Mad Hatter

What about the earlier post by Bojangles which showed that a woman can't get the proper epilipsy medication even if she's not pregnant, on the off chance that she might become pregnant? Silvio doesn't seem to have addressed or even understood that.

Sarky

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Afraid not. I have no access to the accounts...

So your little group could be 100% funded by unidentified American interests and you'd never stop and wonder "why? What are they getting from this? Why are they trying to influence foreign lawmaking? And where did THEY get the money to give us?"

Perhaps you should call for the "noble" Youth Defence/ iona institute to come clean and show you the money trail. I'm betting you won't like the answer.

Hotblack Desiato

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

of course I do...

I haven't seen a shred of that in any of your posts here though.

iguana

With regard to Saturday's numbers, this is a picture of 3,701 Where's Wallys packed onto Merrion Square South. As verified by a representative from Guinness Book or Records. I'm starting to think that my estimate of 5-6,000 attendees at Saturday's vigil was incredibly generous. The estimates of 25-30,000 are frighteningly ludicrous.

Bannasidhe

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What about the earlier post by Bojangles which showed that a woman can't get the proper epilipsy medication even if she's not pregnant, on the off chance that she might become pregnant? Silvio doesn't seem to have addressed or even understood that.

Thalidomide has been proven to be highly effective against certain forms of TB but will not be administered to pregnant women. So what to do Silvio - do not treat a highly infectious deadly disease to protect the fetus? What happens if the mother dies of TB after the birth? What happens if she infects the baby?

Were I to become pregnant (and it could only be as the result of rape) as a diabetic my health care would be severely impacted as all of the medication I am currently taking to keep me alive is on the 'cannot give to pregnant women' list. I have tried some of the 'ok' medications but all of those had side effects ranging from constant diarrhea to loss of eyesight.
http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/9892/1/Drugs-in-Pregnancy.html


What should I do if I am raped and get pregnant Silvo? Should I go blind? Should I increase my already significant risk of a stroke or heart attack?

What would happen to the baby? Should my 78 year old mother (also a diabetic) mind it? Or my 28 year old son - should be raise his brother/sister even though he only gets to see his own two children twice a month and is working his bollocks off the support them financially? Or maybe my diabetic 54 year old sister would take the baby - she has other serious health issues but at least she is unlikely to get pregnant as she is almost through the menopause....or would it be placed in the hands of the 'we don't actually know how many children died while in our care HSE?

Silvio.Dante

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You haven't answered the question Silvio.

If a situation where vital medical treatment for the mother will cause irreparable harm to a fetus what do you advocate?


A) The woman is provided with the medical treatment she needs rendering the fetus incompatible with life but the pregnancy must continue as abortion is not an option.

The woman is denied treatment to protect the fetus and ensure a live birth and compatibility with life.

C) The health of the woman takes precedence so the pregnancy is terminated as it is not viable.

Call it Silvio...

I'm not going to make a stark call like that. This isn't Winning Streak you know.

If the life of the mother is not in danger then C would not be relevant, I would think...

Silvio.Dante

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What about the earlier post by Bojangles which showed that a woman can't get the proper epilipsy medication even if she's not pregnant, on the off chance that she might become pregnant? Silvio doesn't seem to have addressed or even understood that.

I don't see the relevance to abortion, directly, if she can't access the Meds while not being pregnant. Sounds strange to say the least...

Silvio.Dante

Sarky wrote: »

So your little group could be 100% funded by unidentified American interests and you'd never stop and wonder "why? What are they getting from this? Why are they trying to influence foreign lawmaking? And where did THEY get the money to give us?"

Perhaps you should call for the "noble" Youth Defence/ iona institute to come clean and show you the money trail. I'm betting you won't like the answer.

Oh I've spoken to quite a few American Pro Life friends who see Ireland as a beacon of hope for unborn babies in a sea of careless disregard for their safety and well being via the horrors of abortion clinics...

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I'm not going to make a stark call like that. This isn't Winning Streak you know.

Abortion is all about discussing the tough questions. How can you not answer questions that are relevant to your stance on abortion?

If the life of the mother is not in danger then C would not be relevant, I would think...

The health of the mother isn't relevant? you realise that the foetus relies on her good health to survive?

robindch

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I have no access to the accounts...

As Sarky says, does it not worry you that money from another country is flooding a single-issue political lobby group in this country?

Or that people appear to have been bussed in, free of charge, from all over the country -- a favourite of the Russian Communist Party, btw -- and tempted with competitions and free international flights in order to make up what appear to be some suspiciously inflated numbers?

Or that people's own placards etc appear to have been removed from them and replaced with ones largely, if not exclusively, funded by non-nationals?

And that there appear to be few if any controls and even less public information on where this money is coming from, and what it's being used to do?

Irish politics, as I'm sure you're aware, is well-known for brown envelopes and I'd have thought that organizations which declare themselves dedicated to honesty, decency and humanity would go to considerable lengths to avoid any taint.