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Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

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    #4652
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Thalidomide has been proven to be highly effective against certain forms of TB but will not be administered to pregnant women. So what to do Silvio - do not treat a highly infectious deadly disease to protect the fetus? What happens if the mother dies of TB after the birth? What happens if she infects the baby?

    Were I to become pregnant (and it could only be as the result of rape) as a diabetic my health care would be severely impacted as all of the medication I am currently taking to keep me alive is on the 'cannot give to pregnant women' list. I have tried some of the 'ok' medications but all of those had side effects ranging from constant diarrhea to loss of eyesight.
    http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/9892/1/Drugs-in-Pregnancy.html


    What should I do if I am raped and get pregnant Silvo? Should I go blind? Should I increase my already significant risk of a stroke or heart attack?

    What would happen to the baby? Should my 78 year old mother (also a diabetic) mind it? Or my 28 year old son - should be raise his brother/sister even though he only gets to see his own two children twice a month and is working his bollocks off the support them financially? Or maybe my diabetic 54 year old sister would take the baby - she has other serious health issues but at least she is unlikely to get pregnant as she is almost through the menopause....or would it be placed in the hands of the 'we don't actually know how many children died while in our care HSE?


    Or should you have your unborn baby killied..?

    Citing financial reasons for abortions is the next step if X is legislated for. Its like a stone roling down a mountain. momentum will inevitably mean abortion on demand...:(


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    #4653
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    iguana wrote: »
    With regard to Saturday's numbers, this is a picture of 3,701 Where's Wallys packed onto Merrion Square South. As verified by a representative from Guinness Book or Records. I'm starting to think that my estimate of 5-6,000 attendees at Saturday's vigil was incredibly generous. The estimates of 25-30,000 are frighteningly ludicrous.
    It seems strange to me that in something like this where the numbers game is so important, that nobody's out there actually verifying the numbers with something even as simple as tickets?

    In any case, just looking at the "Where's Wally" photo, I'd have said that was game, set and match to the pro-choice side.

    Silvio - can you comment on why a crowd of 3,700 seems to be similar in size and density to a crowd which, we are told, was 25,000-strong?


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    #4654
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    koth wrote: »
    The health of the mother isn't relevant? you realise that the foetus relies on her good health to survive?

    But you advocate the baby being aborted. Explain that one to me...


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    #4655
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    robindch wrote: »
    As Sarky says, does it not worry you that money from another country is flooding a single-issue political lobby group in this country?

    Or that people appear to have been bussed in, free of charge, from all over the country -- a favourite of the Russian Communist Party, btw -- and tempted with competitions and free international flights in order to make up what appear to be some suspiciously inflated numbers?

    Or that people's own placards etc appear to have been removed from them and replaced with ones largely, if not exclusively, funded by non-nationals?

    And that there appear to be few if any controls and even less public information on where this money is coming from, and what it's being used to do?

    Irish politics, as I'm sure you're aware, is well-known for brown envelopes and I'd have thought that organizations which declare themselves dedicated to honesty, decency and humanity would go to considerable lengths to avoid any taint.

    Tell you what. You worry about the money while I'll focus on campaigning against X...


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    #4656
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    robindch wrote: »
    It seems strange to me that in something like this where the numbers game is so important, that nobody's out there actually verifying the numbers with something even as simple as tickets?

    In any case, just looking at the "Where's Wally" photo, I'd have said that was game, set and match to the pro-choice side.

    Silvio - can you comment on why a crowd of 3,700 seems to be similar in size and density to a crowd which, we are told, was 25,000-strong?


    Nope...:)


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    #4657
    Bloodwing
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Bloodwing


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »


    Or should you have your unborn baby killied..?

    Citing financial reasons for abortions is the next step if X is legislated for. Its like a stone roling down a mountain. momentum will inevitably mean abortion on demand...:(

    The inevitable slippery slope argument. I suppose next we'll be putting unborn babies in burgers. If well thought out, effective and practical legislation is drawn up it creates a level playing field, not a slippery slope.


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    #4658
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    You worry about the money while I'll focus on campaigning against X...
    Yes, I am concerned about what appears to be unlimited amounts of foreign money being used to purchase political influence in this country.

    It seems that you do not share this concern.


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    #4659
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, I am concerned about what appears to be unlimited amounts of foreign money being used to purchase political influence in this country.

    It seems that you do not share this concern.

    If it helps us against X then I am grateful to the donors...


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    #4660
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Bloodwing wrote: »
    The inevitable slippery slope argument. I suppose next we'll be putting unborn babies in burgers.


    Hmmm...:rolleyes:


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    #4661
    Bloodwing
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Bloodwing


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »


    Hmmm...:rolleyes:

    You use the rolleyes emoticon all you want it doesn't change the fact that your claim that legislating for X will eventually result in abortion on demand is as logical as my claim that we'll be eating baby burgers in a few years.


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    #4662
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    If it helps us against X then I am grateful to the donors...

    So you are OK with foreign groups using their money to lobby for changes of laws within this country no matter the specific issue?


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    #4663
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,798 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    But you advocate the baby being aborted. Explain that one to me...

    I place more value on a person compared to a foetus (which is a potential person).

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #4664
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    iguana wrote: »
    With regard to Saturday's numbers, this is a picture of 3,701 Where's Wallys packed onto Merrion Square South. As verified by a representative from Guinness Book or Records. I'm starting to think that my estimate of 5-6,000 attendees at Saturday's vigil was incredibly generous. The estimates of 25-30,000 are frighteningly ludicrous.

    BBGP-7uCIAEWuWe.jpg:large

    Yes but was this verified representative a garda?


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    #4665
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    I'm not going to make a stark call like that. This isn't Winning Streak you know.

    If the life of the mother is not in danger then C would not be relevant, I would think...

    No. It isn't Winning Streak.
    Neither is it a clear cut issue.

    Define 'life in danger' - does a shortened life expectancy due to withdrawal of vital medical treatment count?
    How much of her life expectancy should a woman reasonably be required to lose? 5 years? 10? Half?

    Does TB count as putting her 'life in danger'?

    Do mental health issues such as Bi-Polar or severe depression count?

    What about a woman's health? Does that not count at all?


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    #4666
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    But you advocate the baby being aborted. Explain that one to me...
    Easy. If it comes down to me or a foetus, I'll choose me every single time. It may not be an easy decision to make, but if I die, the foetus dies anyway.
    VinLieger wrote: »
    So you are OK with foreign groups using their money to lobby for changes of laws within this country no matter the specific issue?

    Of course he is, and it's all grand as long as they're pumping money into something he agrees with. But who knows what they'll start funding next.


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    #4667
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Correction. I think the Wallys picture was actually taken on Merrion Square West which is shorter than Merrion Square South. So I think that if the vigil crowd had been as densely packed on Merrion Square South (and there was no soundstage and gazebos) the crowd could have been around 6-7,000. Still nowhere near the 25-30,000 being quoted.


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    #4668
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Or should you have your unborn baby killied..?

    Citing financial reasons for abortions is the next step if X is legislated for. Its like a stone roling down a mountain. momentum will inevitably mean abortion on demand...:(

    Or should I let that fetus kill me?

    I cited the repercussions if I were denied the medications that are keeping me alive should I become pregnant.
    You have twisted that because I mentioned the options available after my death due to not having these medications and the impact that would have on the lives of my family but completely ignored the fact that you and your kind have condemned me to a death sentence.

    Has it occurred to you that I would not survive for 9 months without my medication?

    I would be lucky to survive 9 days before entering a diabetic coma which would lead to permanent brain damage....You would have my brain damaged body kept 'alive' to act as an incubator for the fetus that put me in that coma in the first place.

    Now - tell me that lie about caring for mothers again....


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    #4669
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Miriam Lord went to Merrion Square for a look. She didn't see 25,000 people - she saw stage management and a lavish budget.
    But 25,000? It was reported everywhere. Garda numbers, apparently. Were they at the same gig?

    We walked the course. It was an impressive crowd – stretching the length of one side of Merrion Square. But it didn’t go around the corner and traffic moved freely along the road at the far end....

    When the crowd finally dispersed, the buses were lined up and waiting. An impressive evening’s work, brilliantly orchestrated and clearly lavishly resourced. But perhaps overproduced: all the money in the world can’t buy edge or spontaneity.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0121/1224329103015.html


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    #4670
    Bloodwing
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Bloodwing


    Has anyone a link to the official Garda press release stating that 25000 people attended? I can't find it on the Garda site.


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    #4671
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, I am concerned about what appears to be unlimited amounts of foreign money being used to purchase political influence in this country. It seems that you do not share this concern.
    If it helps us against X then I am grateful to the donors...
    It's sad, if unsurprising, to hear that anti-choicers -- I've heard others make the same point -- are unconcerned about political corruption since it suggests there's a reason for it.


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    #4672
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Bloodwing wrote: »
    You use the rolleyes emoticon all you want it doesn't change the fact that your claim that legislating for X will eventually result in abortion on demand is as logical as my claim that we'll be eating baby burgers in a few years.


    Its a massive fear. One we're rather not face. As once abortion is legitimised for X the Daly/Bacik axis won't stop there I can tell you...


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    #4673
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    VinLieger wrote: »
    So you are OK with foreign groups using their money to lobby for changes of laws within this country no matter the specific issue?

    We are not lobbying for any change here...


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    #4674
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    Its a massive fear. One we're rather not face. As once abortion is legitimised for X the Daly/Bacik axis won't stop there I can tell you...

    Oh seriously, get over yourself with this BS about Claire Daly and Ivana Bacik - an Independent TD with zero power and a Senator with even less

    Ohhh...look at the scary mouthy wimmenz. Honestly!:rolleyes:.


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    #4675
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    No. It isn't Winning Streak.
    Neither is it a clear cut issue.

    Define 'life in danger' - does a shortened life expectancy due to withdrawal of vital medical treatment count?
    How much of her life expectancy should a woman reasonably be required to lose? 5 years? 10? Half?

    Does TB count as putting her 'life in danger'?

    Do mental health issues such as Bi-Polar or severe depression count?

    What about a woman's health? Does that not count at all?

    No.

    There has to be a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother before a termination comes into the picture.

    The Medical Council Guidelenes are very clear...


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    #4676
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    We are not lobbying for any change here...

    No. What you are lobbying for is far worse.

    You are lobbying to try and force a democratically elected government to ignore the will of the people as determined in a Referendum.

    You are lobbying for fascism.


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    #4677
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Or should I let that fetus kill me?

    I cited the repercussions if I were denied the medications that are keeping me alive should I become pregnant.
    You have twisted that because I mentioned the options available after my death due to not having these medications and the impact that would have on the lives of my family but completely ignored the fact that you and your kind have condemned me to a death sentence.

    Has it occurred to you that I would not survive for 9 months without my medication?

    I would be lucky to survive 9 days before entering a diabetic coma which would lead to permanent brain damage....You would have my brain damaged body kept 'alive' to act as an incubator for the fetus that put me in that coma in the first place.

    Now - tell me that lie about caring for mothers again....

    Who is preventing you from taking your Meds..?


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    #4678
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Miriam Lord went to Merrion Square for a look. She didn't see 25,000 people - she saw stage management and a lavish budget.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0121/1224329103015.html


    I saw Miriam there alright.

    Nothing new in the Irish Times propaganda...:)


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    #4679
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    robindch wrote: »
    It's sad, if unsurprising, to hear that anti-choicers -- I've heard others make the same point -- are unconcerned about political corruption since it suggests there's a reason for it.

    What corruption..?


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    #4680
    Silvio.Dante
    Site Banned Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭Silvio.Dante


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Oh seriously, get over yourself with this BS about Claire Daly and Ivana Bacik - an Independent TD with zero power and a Senator with even less

    Ohhh...look at the scary mouthy wimmenz. Honestly!:rolleyes:.


    You can throw Alan Shatter and Joe Higgins into the mix it you like.

    However Choice Ireland and their cohort have decided that a twin attack from Daly and Bacik is the strategy to take...


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    #4681
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Silvio.Dante wrote: »
    We are not lobbying for any change here...

    Yes, you are. The supreme court decided that the X case ruling reflected constitutional rights. We're just looking for the law to catch up. You want the constitution changed, or ignored altogether. "No abortion for anyone, regardless of circumstances" is directly against the part of the constitution referenced in the x case.

    Y'know, 50-odd years ago a lot of people might have called that treason. I dare say it would still count today. Why do you hate Ireland so much, Silvio? Do the people that fought and died for your freedom mean so little to you?


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