Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

_rebelkid

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

where did I say that..?

Have a browse through the "exchanges" three days ago, or are the memories too hurtful?

Maybe you should learn how a government works, the mechanics of law, what a constitution is... to name just a few...

Silvio.Dante

Bannasidhe wrote: »

each TD will either accept or reject the party whip and the proposed wording of the legislation.

There will be legislation.
It will permit abortion.

or the republic will cease to exist.

Funny how getting the 8th Amendment passed has bitten ye in the ass.

So if the TDs reject the proposed legislation Ireland as a political entity will cease to exist..?

I love the hyperbolé...:D But you're kidding yourself.

All rejection will do is protect unborn babies from being intentionally killed in Ireland. And the Republic will go on...

swampgas

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Realism is a concept I value.

though I find it abhorrant that Irish babies are killed in UK abortion clinics I am realistic enough to know that I am powerless to do anything about it nad would be watnig valuable advocacy time calling for it to end.

While I could be focussing on a battle that is winnable, like stopping X being legislated for...

Well, if realism is something you value - isn't it realistic to acknowledge that many Irish women will have abortions, even if they have to travel to do so? So, given that reality, why can't we face up to this reality and permit those abortions to be performed in Ireland, their home country, where they can be given proper after-care?

Isn't it also realistic to acknowledge that a sperm which has seconds ago fused with an ovum is not an unborn baby? Isn't it realistic to acknowledge that the process by which a fertilized egg becomes a baby is not instant, and that for many weeks there really isn't a "baby" there at all, but just the potential for one?

Isn't it realistic to acknowledge that sometimes a foetus is not viable, and that no purpose is served by forcing a women to carry it, and that an early abortion would be less traumatic for her?

I'm a big fan of being realistic myself ...

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

each TD will either accept or reject the party whip and the proposed wording of the legislation.

There will be legislation.
It will permit abortion.

or the republic will cease to exist.

Funny how getting the 8th Amendment passed has bitten ye in the ass.

Whatever about anything else, the republic will still exist. Just that the Dail will have no current mandate anymore, hence a General Election....

Sierra 117

Legalizing abortion would probably lead to fewer abortions, to be honest. Forcing women to travel to England for an abortion puts extra pressure on them and limits the amount of time they have to decide whether they want to remain pregnant or not. Many women who regret having an abortion might not have gone through with it if it was available here.

Sarky

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So if the TDs reject the proposed legislation Ireland as a political entity will cease to exist..?

I love the hyperbolé...:D But you're kidding yourself.

All rejection will do is protect unborn babies from being intentionally killed in Ireland. And the Republic will go on...

That is precisely how it will work. The best you and your cretinous friends can hope for is that the bare minimum legislation will be introduced. You've lost. I will so enjoy your bitter tears when you realise you have failed.

Bannasidhe

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So if the TDs reject the proposed legislation Ireland as a political entity will cease to exist..?

I love the hyperbolé...:D But you're kidding yourself.

All rejection will do is protect unborn babies from being intentionally killed in Ireland. And the Republic will go on...

I am horrified by your ignorance of this - that and the fact that you have made zero effort to inform yourself.

You really don't understand do you....:eek:

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

S
But there is this place called The European Court of Human Rights and the government got in big trouble with them because of all the delaying...

Again, whatever about anything else the ECHR has no juristiction in this area. They cannot force the Dail to do anything regards abortion legislation apart from wag the finger now and again.

B0jangles

swampgas wrote: »

Well, if realism is something you value - isn't it realistic to acknowledge that many Irish women will have abortions, even if they have to travel to do so? So, given that reality, why can't we face up to this reality and permit those abortions to be performed in Ireland, their home country, where they can be given proper after-care?

Isn't it also realistic to acknowledge that a sperm which has seconds ago fused with an ovum is not an unborn baby? Isn't it realistic to acknowledge that the process by which a fertilized egg becomes a baby is not instant, and that for many weeks there really isn't a "baby" there at all, but just the potential for one?

Isn't it realistic to acknowledge that sometimes a foetus is not viable, and that no purpose is served by forcing a women to carry it, and that an early abortion would be less traumatic for her?

I'm a big fan of being realistic myself ...

No, because for the perspective of an anti-abortion person that would require recognising that human existance is made up of difficult grey areas instead of the black and white scenarios to which they are so conspicuously wedded.

Once you point out even a few of the "grey areas", like women who have been raped, or subjected to incest, or who have serious illnesses which require fetus-damaging medication, or whose fetuses have severe abnormalities which would make life very difficult or impossible for the impending child. or who realise that they cannot possibly afford to bear and/or raise another child, or even a first child, they either realise that their views are extraordinarily limited and that they haven't considered the complexities of the many situations,

or...

As is so very common, they dig their heels in, ignore all the possible complex siutations and off the same trite, easy solutions and evasions that have been offered for the last fifty years.

Silvio.Dante

swampgas wrote: »

Well, if realism is something you value - isn't it realistic to acknowledge that many Irish women will have abortions, even if they have to travel to do so? So, given that reality, why can't we face up to this reality and permit those abortions to be performed in Ireland, their home country, where they can be given proper after-care?

Because intentionally killing unborn babies is something I do not wish to see becoming acceptable in this country...

Silvio.Dante

Sarky wrote: »

That is precisely how it will work. The best you and your cretinous friends can hope for is that the bare minimum legislation will be introduced. You've lost. I will so enjoy your bitter tears when you realise you have failed.

And the name calling goes on...

B0jangles

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Because intentionally killing unborn babies is something I do not wish to see becoming acceptable in this country...

...you are either a troll or a sociopath...


:D:D:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes::o:o:eek:


....

..

.

swampgas

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Because intentionally killing unborn babies is something I do not wish to see becoming acceptable in this country...

Did you miss the point I made about calling everything from conception onwards a "baby"?

Silvio.Dante

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am horrified by your ignorance of this - that and the fact that you have made zero effort to inform yourself.

You really don't understand do you....:eek:

he legislation is in the hands of our TDs. Either they accept it or reject it. It really is that simple...:)

Sierra 117

No, you just think it's that simple.

_rebelkid

This is just getting remaining ridiculous.

swampgas

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

The legislation is in the hands of our TDs. Either they accept it or reject it. It really is that simple...:)

Except that the government has made repeated public commitments to legislate. Regardless of the constitutional issues (which are legion) they cannot simply refuse to provide legislation at this stage without losing a huge amount of credibility.

The idea that no legislation will be passed is extremely unlikely - the real battle in the Dáil now is over the wording of that legislation.

Every TD in the Dáil knows this. So should you.

Silvio.Dante

B0jangles wrote: »

...you are either a troll or a sociopath...


:D:D:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes::o:o:eek:


....

..

.

I'm merely a humble advocate for the right to life of unborn babies under threat...

Silvio.Dante

swampgas wrote: »

Except that the government has made repeated public commitments to legislate. Regardless of the constitutional issues (which are legion) they cannot simply refuse to provide legislation at this stage without losing a huge amount of credibility.

The idea that no legislation will be passed is extremely unlikely - the real battle in the Dáil now is over the wording of that legislation.

Every TD in the Dáil knows this. So should you.

So you accept the possibility it could be rejected. Thankfully not everyone is so closed minded on the possibility.

What happens if rejection happens?

The status quo remains and unborn babies are safe from intentionally being killed in this country...

_rebelkid

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I'm merely a humble advocate for the right to life of unborn babies under threat...

Until they're outside of Ireland.

Silvio.Dante

_rebelkid wrote: »

Until they're outside of Ireland.

Alas we have no influence on abortion laws in other countries...

_rebelkid

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Alas we have no influence on abortion laws in other countries...

But you're ok with Irish babies being "intentionally killed" outside Ireland, because that means that treason has won?

Sarky

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Alas we have no influence on abortion laws in other countries...

Bullsh*t. If you believed that you'd tell the Americans trying to influence abortion law in this country to take a hike. But no, you're happy to let them try to influence all the law they like over here. Blatant hypocrisy.

Stop tying yourself up in knots, it's embarrassing to watch you fail again and again and again...

_rebelkid

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you accept the possibility it could be rejected. Thankfully not everyone is so closed minded on the possibility.

What happens if rejection happens?

The status quo remains and unborn babies are safe from intentionally being killed in this country...

This is the LAST TIME Silvio;

Originally Posted by Bannasidhe
Sigh- Silvio.

We have this very important document called The Constitution.
It is number one law of the land.
No legislation can be enacted if it goes against the Constitution - technical term is 'Unconstitutional.'
In order for what is written in the Constitution to be changed a majority of the electorate must vote for that change.
In 1983 a majority of the electorate voted for the 8th Amendment= No abortions under any circumstances (win for you guys).
This meant the Constitution had to be changed and the appropriate legislation introduced.

In 1992 a majority of the electorate voted to change the 8th Amendment in light of the X-Case = abortion if the life of the mother is in immediate danger - including by suicide. (Partial win for us guys).

This means the Constitution has to be changed and the appropriate legislation introduced.

2 subsequent referendums upheld the 'suicide clause'.
This means the Constitution has to be changed and the appropriate legislation introduced.

The government has to legislate for X - the argument is about the wording. There will be legislation and it will allow for abortion in certain circumstances. The fight is over which circumstances - how little can FG concede/how much can Labour demand.

But have no doubt - they will legislate to allow abortion.

It is illegal for the government to simply refuse to legislate following a referendum - all they can do is delay.

Which they have.

For 20 years.

But there is this place called The European Court of Human Rights and the government got in big trouble with them because of all the delaying...

Sierra 117

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Alas we have no influence on abortion laws in other countries...

Would you mind telling that to all of the Americans trying (and failing) to influence our laws?

Silvio.Dante

_rebelkid wrote: »

But you're ok with Irish babies being "intentionally killed" outside Ireland, because that means that treason has won?

Its a tragic reality...:(

swampgas

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you accept the possibility it could be rejected. Thankfully not everyone is so closed minded on the possibility.

When I say it is extremely unlikely that no leglisation will be passed, I do mean extremely unlikely ...

What happens if rejection happens?

They will be forced to start again. They will be a laughing stock otherwise, it could even bring down the government.

The status quo remains and unborn babies are safe from intentionally being killed in this country...

So what - the abortions are just happening in England. What's so special about Ireland that an abortion here is any different to one somewhere else?

You seem more concerned that an abortion might happen in Ireland than that it happens at all. That's a rather strange moral position.

B0jangles

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I'm merely a humble advocate for the right to life of unborn babies under threat...

And an endless source of dreadful, weak, terrible jokes on the topic.

I've said it before and I say it now; disagree with my pro-choice views, that's fine, as long as you treat it as a serious topic for discussion. I'll continue to disagree but will respect the strength of belief behind the viewpoint.

Call youself "pro-choice" or "pro-life" and treat the topic with flippancy; with feeble "jokiness" you are a disgrace to your cause on either side of the argument.

No matter what you believe; it's a serious issue which deserves to be treated with respect.

Silvio.Dante

Sarky wrote: »

Bullsh*t. If you believed that you'd tell the Americans trying to influence abortion law in this country to take a hike. But no, you're happy to let them try to influence all the law they like over here. Blatant hypocrisy.

Stop tying yourself up in knots, it's embarrassing to watch you fail again and again and again...

Every help is welcomed from our friends in America in the struggle against the possible legislation for X...

Silvio.Dante

Sierra 117 wrote: »

Would you mind telling that to all of the Americans trying (and failing) to influence our laws?

I hope they're successful...