Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

HHobo

Flier wrote: »

I don't hear anyone on the pro choice side calling for a law that will be wishy washy and full of loop holes that can be exploited.

I was responding only to the objection that pointing out the possible abuses is not trusting women. There are many legitimate criticisms that can and should be raised, this just isn't one of them.

Flier wrote: »

I do hear plenty of people on the prolife side calling for no legislation because it will be abused and 'open the floodgates to abortion on demand'.

I am in complete agreement that this objection is utterly bogus and I am personally on the pro-choice side of this issue. We will be better able to argue against these bogus objections if we aren't raising ones our own.

Obliq

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

How exactly do people think this law will be 'abused'? Would you rather an overnight stay in the UK or several sessions with different doctors trying to convince them you are suicidal when you're not? Risking being prescribed medication, possibly being put under the mental health act and being admitted to a psychiatric hospital? I know what I'd choose.

Yeah that. Was just coming back here having thought about why the argument "do you not trust us women?" still stands. To me that statement is said in such a bitter way....as you say Kiwi - given the choice between having an abortion in the UK or abusing the system here to get an abortion (once you have qualified as suicidal, potentially been locked down in by meds/psych wards, had suicidality put on your permanent record, etc. etc.) - I think you'd have to be pretty bloody desperate to go through the Irish system in a "dishonest" fashion. That would mean either desperately too poor to travel, desperately afraid you wouldn't be let back in to Ireland, or desperately both.

There is no way in hell any woman would willingly go down this Irish road - and that is exactly why it won't help any desperate woman with an unwanted pregnancy who isn't genuinely suicidal. It's a heap of sh*te, in other words.

Obliq

HHobo wrote: »

I was responding only to the objection that pointing out the possible abuses is not trusting women. There are many legitimate criticisms that can and should be raised, this just isn't one of them.



I am in complete agreement that this objection is utterly bogus and I am personally on the pro-choice side of this issue. We will be better able to argue against these bogus objections if we aren't raising ones our own.

No, this bit is bollox, I'm sorry I've really been enjoying your posts, but how you can expect women to turn around and "welcome" this legislation, as if it wasn't piss-poor, as if it will help more than 1 or 2 women a year (if that), as if it wasn't an insult to us collectively that this will be "abused", as if it's somehow all we can hope for.......

I think the only criticism of this legislation that means anything to me is that it's pointless in real terms, it just fulfills a moral obligation on the part of the government.

HHobo

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

How exactly do people think this law will be 'abused'? Would you rather an overnight stay in the UK or several sessions with different doctors trying to convince them you are suicidal when you're not? Risking being prescribed medication, possibly being put under the mental health act and being admitted to a psychiatric hospital? I know what I'd choose.

Do you think we should derive all our legislation based on this kind of reasoning, or do you think it is better to examine possible abuses before legislating to enact the fairest, and actually enforceable, laws?

I am not suggesting that the claim that women will simply use "I'm suicidal" as a secret password for unlimited abortion is a good one but to raise the fact that some women might lie about being sucicidal to obtain an abortion is entirely valid. The claim should be evaluated and discarded if it is seen as an unwarranted concern. It would be completely remiss to just assume everyone will act like responsible rational adults.

rainbow kirby

HHobo wrote: »

I am not suggesting that the claim that women will simply use "I'm suicidal" as a secret password for unlimited abortion is a good one but to raise the fact that some women might lie about being sucicidal to obtain an abortion is entirely valid. The claim should be evaluated and discarded if it is seen as an unwarranted concern. It would be completely remiss to just assume everyone will act like responsible rational adults.

Why should they have to jump through hoops in the first place to obtain an abortion?

Kiwi in IE

HHobo wrote: »

Do you think we should derive all our legislation based on this kind of reasoning, or do you think it is better to examine possible abuses before legislating to enact the fairest, and actually enforceable, laws?

I am not suggesting that the claim that women will simply use "I'm suicidal" as a secret password for unlimited abortion is a good one but to raise the fact that some women might lie about being sucicidal to obtain an abortion is entirely valid. The claim should be evaluated and discarded if it is seen as an unwarranted concern. It would be completely remiss to just assume everyone will act like responsible rational adults.

To be blatant, although I don't envision any 'abuses', I really wouldn't care if there were 10 000 a week. As others have pointed out, the proposed legislation is ridiculous in the first place.

Abortion on demand to 12 weeks. Welcome to the civilised world in the year 2013!

Obliq

HHobo wrote: »

I am not suggesting that the claim that women will simply use "I'm suicidal" as a secret password for unlimited abortion is a good one but to raise the fact that some women might lie about being sucicidal to obtain an abortion is entirely valid. The claim should be evaluated and discarded if it is seen as an unwarranted concern. It would be completely remiss to just assume everyone will act like responsible rational adults.

This is getting me a bit annoyed to say the least. Do you realise we are talking about ABORTIONS? I personally assume that everyone who is looking for an abortion is acting like they are quite desperate enough to get one - y'kno - like a responsible rational adult (we hope not child) with an unwanted pregnancy.

Would you also say that a genuinely starving person who breaks/abuses the law by stealing food is acting irresponsibly, irrationally and immaturely?

Kiwi in IE

HHobo wrote: »

Do you think we should derive all our legislation based on this kind of reasoning, or do you think it is better to examine possible abuses before legislating to enact the fairest, and actually enforceable, laws

Discussing 'fair' legislation which will force women to continue with unwanted pregnancies is a complete oxymoron!

HHobo

Obliq wrote: »

No, this bit is bollox, I'm sorry I've really been enjoying your posts, but how you can expect women to turn around and "welcome" this legislation, as if it wasn't piss-poor, as if it will help more than 1 or 2 women a year (if that), as if it wasn't an insult to us collectively that this will be "abused", as if it's somehow all we can hope for.......

I am completely baffled as to where you got the notion that I even hinted that women should welcome this legislation. Of course they shouldn't.

The only restriction I would personally like to see on abortion are ones regarding the stage of the pregnancy at which it is acceptable to abort the feteus. When the life of the mother is in danger, even these restrictions could be waived.

My only point was that how much "trust" it is showing is not something the law should be concerned about.

eviltwin

I would imagine any woman granted an abortion on the grounds of suicide won't just be waved off with no follow up. I would guess she will have to be checked on a regular basis to see how she is doing post abortion etc. The pro life groups would be watching that very closely. It sounds like a lot of hassle, I would imagine for most women the easiet thing would be to go overseas and have the abortion without fuss and in a suitable time frame. So we'll have legislation but in reality it will probably achieve absolutely nothing, Ireland will still have its secret abortion on demand, just over in the UK.

Bannasidhe

HHobo wrote: »

My only point was that how much "trust" it is showing is not something the law should be concerned about.

No. It shouldn't.

But the issue of 'abuse of any legislation' has been introduced into the narrative. That issue was introduced by pro-birthers as a 'reason' to restrict the already minimal provision of abortion required by the X Referendum.

Twice attempts have been made, and have failed, to claw back the suicide clause, yet this ridiculous notion that women and girls will 'fake' suicidal tendencies is still being trotted out.

There is a sub-text to this - that women will lie to get their 'baby murdering' way which is nonsense when it is much easier to simply get on a plane and have a hassle free termination in the UK.

In my close to 50 years on this planet I have never encountered a campaign against a piece of legislation that employs such a blatant piece of 'can't trust women/girls to be honest' sub-text as grounds for not introducing that legislation.

HHobo

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Discussing 'fair' legislation which will force women to continue with unwanted pregnancies is a complete oxymoron!

I'm starting to wonder if folk are even reading my posts. I said "fair" when addressing legislation in general. Presumably you don't think the current legislation on the issue is fair. Wouldn't you like it to be?

I completely agree incidentally, that women should have this right. It is repugnant to me to think that the state should should try to impose this level of control over any individual's body.

Obliq

HHobo wrote: »

I am completely baffled as to where you got the notion that I even hinted that women should welcome this legislation. Of course they shouldn't.

The only restriction I would personally like to see on abortion are ones regarding the stage of the pregnancy at which it is acceptable to abort the feteus. When the life of the mother is in danger, even these restrictions could be waived.

My only point was that how much "trust" it is showing is not something the law should be concerned about.

Look, I get that you don't think we should welcome this legislation, but you do seem to think that if we raise the issue (that you don't feel is a genuine one) of this law not trusting women, then we are muddying the waters somehow and not concentrating on the "real" issues.

Of course any law has to be closed to loopholes wherever possible, but it's because this law is such a useless facesaving exercise that the government has been FORCED into, and now women's mental health issues are being bandied about as if we'd all choose to "abuse the system", that we're so horribly insulted by it. Leading to tragic/sardonic statements such as "do you not trust us?" in the context of needing an abortion. What an appalling thought. Any pro-choice woman I know is appalled at the idea of an unwanted pregnancy and has probably always known what they would do under the circumstances (who they would borrow money off to get to England for example).

The notion that any of us would put ourselves at risk of being abused by the Irish system is much more unlikely than the reverse.

HHobo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. It shouldn't.

But the issue of 'abuse of any legislation' has been introduced into the narrative. That issue was introduced by pro-birthers as a 'reason' to restrict the already minimal provision of abortion required by the X Referendum.

Twice attempts have been made, and have failed, to claw back the suicide clause, yet this ridiculous notion that women and girls will 'fake' suicidal tendencies is still being trotted out.

There is a sub-text to this - that women will lie to get their 'baby murdering' way which is nonsense when it is much easier to simply get on a plane and have a hassle free termination in the UK.

In my close to 50 years on this planet I have never encountered a campaign against a piece of legislation that employs such a blatant piece of 'can't trust women/girls to be honest' sub-text as grounds for not introducing that legislation.

Are you suggesting that if men were capable of becoming pregnant that the pro-lifers would not resort to this kind of argument? Personally, I think they will invent every possible objection they can think of.

Kiwi in IE

HHobo wrote: »

I'm starting to wonder if folk are even reading my posts. I said "fair" when addressing legislation in general. Presumably you don't think the current legislation on the issue is fair. Wouldn't you like it to be?

I completely agree incidentally, that women should have this right. It is repugnant to me to think that the state should should try to impose this level of control over any individual's body.

I completely agree with you HHobo when discussing legislation in general. We should not however be discussing this legislation at all. Abortion on demand is what should be legislated for (or should have been 40 odd years ago).

This is one of very few issues (gay marriage being the most obvious other) where the wishes of the majority in regard to it being made legal is irrelevant. The majority do not have to have an abortion or marry a gay person. The only relevant opinion is that of the woman with the unwanted pregnancy.

Obliq

HHobo wrote: »

Are you suggesting that if men were capable of becoming pregnant that the pro-lifers would not resort to this kind of argument? Personally, I think they will invent every possible objection they can think of.

But it IS being resorted to, about us women. We need to show our anger and disgust at that argument, AT THE SAME TIME as trying to show how much we need access to abortion services in a real way.

It's a pretty tough situation - on the one hand we have to demonstrate that we are desperate for abortion services here, on the other hand demonstrate that we are not desperate enough for abortions to abuse the "Irish system of shame". I think our catch phrase should be "We'd rather go to England to murder our unborn ickle precious baybeees"......Oh wait, that would be a hard sell. Y'see?

Bannasidhe

HHobo wrote: »

Are you suggesting that if men were capable of becoming pregnant that the pro-lifers would not resort to this kind of argument? Personally, I think they will invent every possible objection they can think of.

Possibly* but - and it is a big but - when one factors in the ingrained misogyny of organisations like the RCC and the fact that women in Ireland have never been well served/protected by the Irish State - indeed it is arguable that the main reason women in Ireland gained equal rights was due to pressure at EU level - then this 'can't trust women' sub-text does not exist in isolation.

It is very much an expression of the view of women held by the dominant religion in this country and, for much of our history, by the State itself.


*plus since this legislation is not aimed at men (is there any whole piece of legislation aimed only at men???) and will not ever affect men's right to body integrity even raising the point is a bit...well...pointless...

lazygal

I think the 'we can't trust women' argument extends into maternity care, pre, during and post birth. I was lucky to be able to go private with my first choice of consultant but almost every woman I know who's gone through the Irish system has a story to tell about her wishes or simple inquiries being trivialised or ignored. As maternity services exist ONLY for women, its fair to say that while there are attitudes in all medical practices, the encounter most women will have with the health service in a major way will be maternity care.

I had to have a c section, no option for any other delivery, and it had to be done on a certain day. I met a woman in my postnatal delivery care unit several weeks after the birth who was in the exact same position as me, needed a c section, but her requests for certain things to happen, not Enya playing as the baby was lifted out or a gold blanket to be wrapped around her, basic, normal things, were totally ignored. You're often made to feel like its a case of 'Don't be hysterical, we know what's best, never mind your 'feeling' something is wrong'. I had to go in for a trace (monitor baby's heartbeat) because of a lack of movement and another young-ish women (early 20s) was there, being belittled by a nurse for overreacting to something. The same happened in an antanatal class, a young woman asked a perfectly reasonable question about birth plans and was used by the midwives giving the class as an example of how silly some women were, and how you won't even be thinking of that, how foolish to come in and tell professionals what you want when they always know what they're doing.

So while I'm saddened by the implicit and explicit nature of the abortion debate that women can't be trusted, having been through our 'world class :rolleyes: ' maternity care system I'm not the least bit surprised.

Obliq

I was told I was a "bold girl" by a nurse half my age for missing 2 scan appointments (I had no car - hospital an hr drive). She apologised after I questioned her approach and said she'd been on duty for 35 hours......

My actual birth experiences were fine though BECAUSE I had booked the "home-birth" room, where you (in Limerick anyway) are left to your own devices with a midwife (I brought my local one the 1st time and had the hosp. one the 2nd) and the doctor isn't asked for advice unless in an emergency. I also got let go home 2 hrs after giving birth, both times, after I argued my case (that I was leaving and good luck stopping me...). Have to say, it wasn't luck, it was my brass-neck that helped get through the system. I'm the only "no problems" story I've heard.....

jank

lazygal wrote: »

I think the 'we can't trust women' argument extends into maternity care, pre, during and post birth. I was lucky to be able to go private with my first choice of consultant but almost every woman I know who's gone through the Irish system has a story to tell about her wishes or simple inquiries being trivialised or ignored. As maternity services exist ONLY for women, its fair to say that while there are attitudes in all medical practices, the encounter most women will have with the health service in a major way will be maternity care.

I had to have a c section, no option for any other delivery, and it had to be done on a certain day. I met a woman in my postnatal delivery care unit several weeks after the birth who was in the exact same position as me, needed a c section, but her requests for certain things to happen, not Enya playing as the baby was lifted out or a gold blanket to be wrapped around her, basic, normal things, were totally ignored. You're often made to feel like its a case of 'Don't be hysterical, we know what's best, never mind your 'feeling' something is wrong'. I had to go in for a trace (monitor baby's heartbeat) because of a lack of movement and another young-ish women (early 20s) was there, being belittled by a nurse for overreacting to something. The same happened in an antanatal class, a young woman asked a perfectly reasonable question about birth plans and was used by the midwives giving the class as an example of how silly some women were, and how you won't even be thinking of that, how foolish to come in and tell professionals what you want when they always know what they're doing.

So while I'm saddened by the implicit and explicit nature of the abortion debate that women can't be trusted, having been through our 'world class :rolleyes: ' maternity care system I'm not the least bit surprised.

What maternity care in the world would you class as world class and have you experienced it in any other country?

lazygal

Obliq wrote: »

I was told I was a "bold girl" by a nurse half my age for missing 2 scan appointments (I had no car - hospital an hr drive). She apologised after I questioned her approach and said she'd been on duty for 35 hours......

My actual birth experiences were fine though BECAUSE I had booked the "home-birth" room, where you (in Limerick anyway) are left to your own devices with a midwife (I brought my local one the 1st time and had the hosp. one the 2nd) and the doctor isn't asked for advice unless in an emergency. I also got let go home 2 hrs after giving birth, both times, after I argued my case (that I was leaving and good luck stopping me...). Have to say, it wasn't luck, it was my brass-neck that helped get through the system. I'm the only "no problems" story I've heard.....

I had a brass neck too, honed after years of seeing my mum battle with the health system regarding my sister, so I've no time for deference or 'let's wait until Doctor so and so gets here'. I of course listened to the professional advice I was paying for, but I wasn't going to be browbeaten into a 'doctor knows best' attitude. My care wasn't perfect, but it was a hell of a lot better than other women's, going on mums I know and stories on other threads/forums.

eviltwin

jank wrote: »

What maternity care in the world would you class as world class and have you experienced it in any other country?

Its certainly not world class in Ireland. I nearly had my son on a toilet floor because the midwife told me I was too quiet to be in labour, by the time he was born there was a queue of 9 women in labour waiting for a delivery suite which meant I ended up having stitches in a hospital corridor. The care I got was a big factor in deciding that was my last baby. There is a culture that if you have a happy outcome ie healthy baby that you've nothing to complain about, that you got what you went in for and that it somehow cancels out any treatment you got during your care. They play on the fact that once baby is born mum and dad have other things to think about.

lazygal

jank wrote: »

What maternity care in the world would you class as world class and have you experienced it in any other country?

What maternity care have you availed of?

I can tell you maternity services in a hospital my cousin attended in the UK were far better. Waterbirthings suites, private rooms for all mums, no six bed wards for mums recovering from sections. The US maternity care a friend of mine had was also far better, large delivery suites, allowed to eat during labour and had minimal intervention to move a perfectly normal, but slower than average, labour along.

You come back here after you've given birth in any Irish hospital and tell us all about it.

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

Its certainly not world class in Ireland. I nearly had my son on a toilet floor because the midwife told me I was too quiet to be in labour, by the time he was born there was a queue of 9 women in labour waiting for a delivery suite which meant I ended up having stitches in a hospital corridor. The care I got was a big factor in deciding that was my last baby. There is a culture that if you have a happy outcome ie healthy baby that you've nothing to complain about, that you got what you went in for and that it somehow cancels out any treatment you got during your care.

I know someone who ended up in a similar situation in the Rotunda, a doctor came off shift and she ended up giving birth in a corridor. I also know someone who was left to her own devices in Holles St as there was an emergency and her husband delivered her baby because the midwives were called away and her labour went really quickly.

Obliq

jank wrote: »

What maternity care in the world would you class as world class and have you experienced it in any other country?

"So, what does the Dutch maternity system hold in store? The keyword here is natural. The viewpoint in The Netherlands is that childbirth is not a medical condition and pregnant women should not be treated as patients. As a result pain relief is not encouraged and home births are all the rage."
http://www.expatica.com/nl/family/kids/Maternity-matters-_-What-to-expect-in-the-Netherlands.html

My opinion. Not everyone's....

Ps. I think I omitted to say that my 1st midwife also had a brass-neck (what I paid her for - to argue with the system as well as knowing all about delivering babies). She held off the Doctors when they wanted to interfere, and I had her notes for how I give birth to give to the next midwife - hence, no doctors taking over.

eviltwin

jank wrote: »

What maternity care in the world would you class as world class and have you experienced it in any other country?

I've only ever had babies here in Ireland, my sister in law had her children in the UK and had a much better experience but its not without its flaws there too. No doubt there are many Irish women who have a wonderful experience, I did with my first baby, couldn't have asked for better care but our maternity system is always being labelled world class.

How do they come to that conclusion?

It is based on the low maternal death rate? Well thats comforting to know but its not just about coming out the other side in one piece, its also about being treated with respect during you experience, being listened to, consulted, having things explained to you which sadly doesn't happen. I volunteer with a midwife attached to one of the dublin maternity hospitals, she was telling me that the numbers of women getting post natal counselling for bad birth experiences is at an all time high. What is "world class" about that?

lazygal

The 'world class' comments usually refer only to maternal deaths. I was never asked, nor was any woman I know, how I'd class my experience of the maternity care system. I think a lot of women have the 'At least we're both here in one piece' attitude, and when you've a newborn to care for you're highly unlikely to be in a frame of mind to follow up on a negative birth experience. From the women I know, the complaints mainly centre on inappropriate or ill timed interventions, like a labour moving more slowly, but safely, than hospital guidelines leading to waters being broken artificially, or labour being induced when there's no medical reason to do so, but the hospital policy is induction after ten days past a due date, or being given an episiotomy without being fully informed of the longer term implications rather than being allowed to tear naturally.

HHobo

Obliq wrote: »

Look, I get that you don't think we should welcome this legislation, but you do seem to think that if we raise the issue (that you don't feel is a genuine one) of this law not trusting women, then we are muddying the waters somehow and not concentrating on the "real" issues.

I am saying that this law, like every other law, must not trust women. It is how law works.
If you think that the sucicidal exploitation argument is a bad one, then by all means call it out. I don't think it holds much water and should not be considered a serious concern. Objecting on the basis that it doesn't trust women is just noise. So what if it doesn't. Since when do we require laws to trust people not to abuse them? The idea is antithetical to the purpose of laws. If we could trust people, we would only need rough guidelines that people would follow.

Obliq wrote: »

The notion that any of us would put ourselves at risk of being abused by the Irish system is much more unlikely than the reverse.

I would hope so.

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

I've only ever had babies here in Ireland, my sister in law had her children in the UK and had a much better experience but its not without its flaws there too. No doubt there are many Irish women who have a wonderful experience, I did with my first baby, couldn't have asked for better care but our maternity system is always being labelled world class.

How do they come to that conclusion?

It is based on the low maternal death rate? Well thats comforting to know but its not just about coming out the other side in one piece, its also about being treated with respect during you experience, being listened to, consulted, having things explained to you which sadly doesn't happen. I volunteer with a midwife attached to one of the dublin maternity hospitals, she was telling me that the numbers of women getting post natal counselling for bad birth experiences is at an all time high. What is "world class" about that?

I had mine in the UK and it was no picnic either but at least I had a private suite (on the NHS) and excellent care by all the staff with the exception of the (male, Australian if any one is interested) Ob/GYN who insisted on a forceps delivery as 'baby's' heart wasn't being picked up by the monitor - he ignored the midwife who was telling him the leads had become detached and got his trusty scalpel out 5 minutes after I had been given an epidural (48 hours after asking for one).

Epidural given at 10 am.
10:03 Asked in I 'minded' if medical students observed (I wouldn't have 'minded' if I was in the middle of Victoria Station by that point - after 36 hours I just wanted the pain to stop.)

Baby delivered at 10:07 am. Observed by about 20 students.

Epidural kicked in at 10:30 am :rolleyes:

But if I had been in an Irish hospital at the time there would be a good chance I would have been infected with Hepatitis... dodged that 'world class maternity care' bullet...

Fast forward some 22 years to Ireland as I had to do battle to insist that my son be allowed to be present for the birth of his son - the midwife (male) on duty objected as son was not married to 'Mum' (WTF??) and he couldn't allow any Tom, Dick or Harry to be present. Sadly, for this bastion of public morality lesbians really are everywhere so it just took a phone call to his (lesbian ) boss and hey presto -son sees his son born.

Bannasidhe

HHobo wrote: »

I am saying that this law, like every other law, must not trust women. It is how law works.
If you think that the sucicidal exploitation argument is a bad one, then by all means call it out. I don't think it holds much water and should not be considered a serious concern. Objecting on the basis that it doesn't trust women is just noise. So what if it doesn't. Since when do we require laws to trust people not to abuse them? The idea is antithetical to the purpose of laws. If we could trust people, we would only need rough guidelines that people would follow.



I would hope so.

HHobo - I don't think you 'get' what we, as women, as finding so objectionable about this narrative in the debate.

It is the implication that as a gender women are not to be trusted. Couple this with the fact that we need to be 'guided' to make the 'right' decisions regarding what happens to our own bodies as we are not capable as rational adults of making informed decisions all by ourselves.
Now, factor in that Dr Rhona Mahony (who in 2012 became the first female master of a Dublin maternity hospital ever) had her submission to the Oireachtas Committee dismissed as 'hysterical' by pro-birthers and a pattern emerges that is distinctly misogynist.

Now, imagine if a piece of legislation on say drink driving was in the pipeline and part of that discussion was a narrative which states that the Irish are alcoholics who will find loopholes...