Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

christmas2012

But please don't pretend you care about women like me because you don't.

I do care about this issue,and if it helps to know that abortion is not as clean cut as people would like to believe in their minds,to idealise abortion as a good thing?I think that is even WORSE.

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion is a lot more than a plaster,a friend of mine who went over to get one said she felt like she had been literally gutted from the inside out,and she bled for at least a week afterwards,and had got an infection,and NO she didnt get antibiotics from the clinic after,just one paracetemol tablet,not only that she is left with terrible memories of the ordeal for life.

Did she get post abortion counselling?

How far into the pregnancy was the abortion?

UDP

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion is a lot more than a plaster,a friend of mine who went over to get one said she felt like she had been literally gutted from the inside out,and she bled for at least a week afterwards,and had got an infection,and NO she didnt get antibiotics from the clinic after,just one paracetemol tablet,not only that she is left with terrible memories of the ordeal for life.

Wouldn't it have been great if she could have went back into the clinic to have check-ups and for any follow-up treatment without having to make a journey and buy tickets etc.

Sin City

doctoremma wrote: »

Ha, a far better TL;DR than my own.

?????????? (Had a rough night, my Higher Level Brain Function has temporally shut down)

doctoremma wrote: »

I would never deny that even the most basic of reflexive responses is enough to indicate what would normally be called "life". However, materialist that I am, I would hesitate to even define what "life" is; for me, everything is physics and chemistry, virus to man, ashes to stars. Whether that makes even myself alive or not is a road we probably shouldn't go down just yet....

Yes life is meaningless and we are all just basic molecules kind of robs us of any ethical debate alright

doctoremma wrote: »

But, using the popular definition of "life", we have to decide whether we apply "meaning" (and, therefore, confer "rights") to that life. A hiccuping embryo is demonstrating signs of "life" but I don't believe those signs indicate "meaningful life" (as I think it's just physics/chemistry) and therefore, I don't confer on this living embryo structure even the most basic "right" to live (in the same way I don't think trees should be afforded the "right" to live).

The same can be said for newborns, all they do is react and not actually make any conscious actions

doctoremma wrote: »

No. But I'm not confident of my ability to judge exactly what level of cognitive ability any person is achieving. Short of complete lack of brain function, I simply cannot know (and I'm not sure anyone can) exactly what level of awareness any specific person has, especially of they lack the ability to communicate such awareness. I'm erring on the side of caution and would assume even the most severely disabled person to have an awareness of "self".

Hence what makes this debate so enticing. No one is wrong or right, but different sides of the divide surface and can be argued against and can be assimilated if the point or arguement holds merit into some sort of fact or theory.

doctoremma wrote: »

No. My definition of "personhood" does not include, as necessary, the ability to reason or make choices. I don't know how that fits with standard philosophical definitions?

It was one of Warrens criteria in the philosophical debate at when personhood can be confired on an individual or potential person

doctoremma wrote: »

I don't think the ability to feel pain gives you "personhood", just as I don't think the ability to feel cold gives you "personhood". However, based on my own response to pain, I know it is something I'd rather not go through (whereas I don't feel such antipathy to cold) and therefore, I'd rather not put something or someone else through it.

To touch on a previous point I made though, I'm not convinced that pain in and of itself is necessarily a problem or something to be avoided. Momentary pain with no lasting consequence is not what makes humans so scared or precious about it; it's our massive brains and our ability to anticipate pain, to anticipate lasting effects, to dread a repeat experience, that forms our desire to avoid it. A ripped-off plaster barely hurts if you don't know when it's happening; staring at a plaster, working up the courage to essentially wax your arm, makes it hurt in a meaningful sense.

But that meaning comes from expierence, Its a learned responce so you have to expierence the pain (say heat) to be able to avoid it unconsciously the next time. But if expierence is a criteria then before you expeirence anything are you not viable for personhood?

Yes Ill admit the dread of pain is worse than just going through it, but the fear can be dealt with and made easier to deal with

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

I do care about this issue,and if it helps to know that abortion is not as clean cut as people would like to believe in their minds,to idealise abortion as a good thing?I think that is even WORSE.

You are basing your stance on one person who had a bad experience. Plenty of women have had positive experiences.

I did but when I mentioned that you called me a liar and said I was making the whole thing up! :eek:

OldNotWIse

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion is a lot more than a plaster,a friend of mine who went over to get one said she felt like she had been literally gutted from the inside out,and she bled for at least a week afterwards,and had got an infection,and NO she didnt get antibiotics from the clinic after,just one paracetemol tablet,not only that she is left with terrible memories of the ordeal for life.

A true story no doubt but sadly I fear the usual suspects will simply accuse you of scare mongering, as this is how they deflect the truth in yoru posts - pretend they are lies, then they dont need to think about them. I dont like to torment myself thinking about the procedure tbh, but it makes sense that later term abortions would be a little gruesome. You hear terms such as "partial birth" etc, doesn't really bear thinking about.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

You are basing your stance on one person who had a bad experience. Plenty of women have had positive experiences.

I did but when I mentioned that you called me a liar and said I was making the whole thing up! :eek:

Positive experiences??

christmas2012

Wouldn't it have been great if she could have went back into the clinic to have check-ups and for any follow-up treatment without having to make a journey and buy tickets etc.

She went to her GP afterwards,always queued out of the room as its the only gp in her vicinity,took her a few days to finally decide to go to the gp,obviously she had to tell him she had an abortion,her family gp,obviously there is confidentiality,but it was a bit awkward all the same,she had to wait a few more days as the tablets werent in the chemists they had to be ordered specailly in,while she was still with infection that could set in and get worse..

UDP

christmas2012 wrote: »

I do care about this issue,and if it helps to know that abortion is not as clean cut as people would like to believe in their minds,to idealise abortion as a good thing?I think that is even WORSE.

I don't think anyone is idealising abortion but you are demonising it. We need to live with the reality legislate for reality rather than forcing women to deal with the stress of sorting out their journey to england along with the stress of making a decision.

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

A true story no doubt but sadly I fear the usual suspects will simply accuse you of scare mongering, as this is how they deflect the truth in yoru posts - pretend they are lies, then they dont need to think about them. I dont like to torment myself thinking about the procedure tbh, but it makes sense that later term abortions would be a little gruesome. You hear terms such as "partial birth" etc, doesn't really bear thinking about.

I bled for a month after having my son, it doesn't mean I felt emotional trauma over it.

If a woman is feeling down after an abortion maybe it wasn't the right thing for her but that doesn't mean many women don't come home feeling that they have done the right thing.

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Positive experiences??

Yes. I've known a lot of women who felt positive about their lives once they were no longer pregnant.

Fizzlesque

Sin City wrote: »

I can empathise with the child mother seperation that adoption brings and my heart goes out to anyone who suffers at having to give their child away (for whatever reason, I know like abortion , it isnt taken lightly)

But , you gave your child a chance at life , to live love and to expeirence everything the world has to offer. You have given it the chance to live love hurt feel pain and joy and inevitibly make its own decesions. I will acknowledge there is always a part of you wondering where it is and if you made the right decesion

But isnt it better than just the finality of death, robbing it of a chance of life and its expirence ?

Hi, Sin City, thanks for your comment. First of all, I should clarify, I have always maintained contact with my child (semi-open adoption), so I'm not wondering where she is.

I had no intentions of aborting my child - as soon as pregnancy was confirmed, all previous (and vague) thoughts of abortion vanished from my mind, immediately, so I have no answer your last question. However, for other women pregnancy confirmation doesn't have the same effect, and who am I to tell them what's right or best for them to choose.

I didn't consider adoption until late into the pregnancy and I was ever so gently maniplated until I thought it was my own idea. It wasn't.

While I did make the final decision myself, it was the absence of an alternative that swung the pendulum that direction - not one single person said to me "I'll help you, if you want to keep your baby". Not one.

My reason for posting isn't to say I wish I'd chosen abortion (because, as I already said, abortion wasn't for me) more to offer a 'been there, done that' view with regard to the reality of choosing adoption, that those who always suggest it as an alternative might not be aware of.

I'd have preferred to keep my baby - that's what I really wanted to do, but I was made believe I'd destroy both our lives. These days I cling to the hope that I've only destroyed my own. The jury is still out on that, and I hope some day the 'jury' comes back to me and lets me know all is well in her world and that she's thankful for the life I gave her. It's been a very long wait, and it's not over yet.

As I said in my last post, I couldn't and wouldn't advise another woman to choose adoption. That's not the same as saying I'd advise an abortion, but if abortion was what a woman chooses, I wouldn't be the one to stand in her way and try take that choice away from her.

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

Im not against abortion,but abortion for all is a huge mistake

Of course it would be a huge mistake, how would the human race survive?

christmas2012

Yes. I've known a lot of women who felt positive about their lives once they were no longer pregnant.

yeah feeling like been gutted from the inside out - POSTIVE EXPERIENCE.Right?

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Positive experiences??

Yes. I was treated very well, no pain after, no need for medication. Its four years later and I have been able to have another child no problem. I'm very happy in myself.

robindch

Folks - it's unhelpful to accuse each other of lying about personal experiences, when the accuser can have no information one way or the other.

For the sake of respectful debate, can everybody please assume that people aren't lying about personal experiences. And if you can't assume that, then please don't accuse other posters of lying. If you do, your post will probably be deleted without comment.

Thanks.

Gbear

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I am saddened that anyone would have an abortion in the first place, regardless of where it was. I am happy that travelling is a necessity not because I want to inconvenience people to "get at them" for having abortions but because I think removing this necessity makes them more accessible and may lead to a higher rate.

This would be a fairly reasonable argument but the problem is that you're arguing it from ignorance.

Making abortion illegal doesn't appear to affect rates. Countries in which abortion is illegal have higher rates of abortion than those where it's legal.
For example, Massachusetts has a lower rate of abortion than Mississippi despite it being legal in Massachusetts.

I would argue that rates of abortion have very little to do with the legality and everything to do with education and access to contraception.
All making illegal does is decrease the safety of the procedure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/18/abortion-rates-higher-countries-illegal-study_n_1215045.html

UDP

christmas2012 wrote: »

She went to her GP afterwards,always queued out of the room as its the only gp in her vicinity,took her a few days to finally decide to go to the gp,obviously she had to tell him she had an abortion,her family gp,obviously there is confidentiality,but it was a bit awkward all the same,she had to wait a few more days as the tablets werent in the chemists they had to be ordered specailly in,while she was still with infection that could set in and get worse..

So then you must see how much better it could have been if she had been able to have the abortion in Ireland and get the follow up treatment from the same clinic without people feeling embarrassed delaying them accessing treatment.

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

yeah feeling like been gutted from the inside out - POSTIVE EXPERIENCE.Right?

Your friend felt that way, not all women feel that way.

So many women have had abortions do you not think if it was really as awful as you make out and destroyed our lives we would be doing everything in our power to save some other poor women from the same fate?

christmas2012

I dont think encouraging abortion for all is the right way to go - it can be a traumatic experience for a lot of women who travel over,to find the procedure is horribly invasive,but a lot of women dont give it that thought,they just focus on the impact a baby would have on their lives..

Your friend felt that way, not all women feel that way.

You seem to misunderstand me,she didnt emotianally FEEL that way,she PHYSICALLY felt that way.It was an invasive procedure..

Sin City

Gbear wrote: »

This would be a fairly reasonable argument but the problem is that you're arguing it from ignorance.

Making abortion illegal doesn't appear to affect rates. Countries in which abortion is illegal have higher rates of abortion than those where it's legal.
For example, Massachusetts has a lower rate of abortion than Mississippi despite it being legal in Massachusetts.

I would argue that rates of abortion have very little to do with the legality and everything to do with education and access to contraception.
All making illegal does is decrease the safety of the procedure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/18/abortion-rates-higher-countries-illegal-study_n_1215045.html

Thats a fair point but for the state to allow abortion is the state saying that life only begins and whatever the cut off point for abortion is. Thus claiming it knows when life or personhood begins

christmas2012

do you not think if it was really as awful as you make out and destroyed our lives we would be doing everything in our power to save some other poor women from the same fate?

oh the irony of that statement..

Fizzlesque

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Nobody is saying its always the best answer, but I am perfectly within my rights to acknowledge that it is a difficult decision, and to extend a thank you to the woman who (imo) was very selfless to gestate her unwanted baby and give it to a childless couple to raise as their own. This is not some kind of dig at those who decided against adoption, it is simply an expression of gratitude for not ending the life of my big brother, so that we got to have him as a part of our lives. I would be very upset if I thought that she was sitting somewhere telling other people that she wished she had aborted him instead - because he is very much alive and very real to me and to his family who reared and cherished and love him - the thought that someone could still say, after 33 years of HIS life, "Oh I wish I had aborted him instead" is hard to take.

Also, in much the same way that I cannot say, "It was good that my brother was adopted therefore every potential aborted baby should be adopted instead" you cannot say, "I regret giving my baby up, therefore it is a bad decision for everyone".

Hi OldNotWise, my apologies, I had intended to make a comment specifically in response to yours but then my post got so long (as they do) and I neglected to do so and forgot to remove the portion of your post I'd quoted. I wasn't at all trying to say you shouldn't say those lovely things you said about your brother - my daughter also has an adopted brother (my stipulation was there was to be no natural children but she wasn't to be an only child either) so I fully relate to what you're saying.

Sorry about the misunderstanding my blathering on caused.

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

I dont think encouraging abortion for all is the right way to go - it can be a traumatic experience for a lot of women who travel over,to find the procedure is horribly invasive,but a lot of women dont give it that thought,they just focus on the impact a baby would have on their lives..



You seem to misunderstand me,she didnt emotianally FEEL that way,she PHYSICALLY felt that way.It was an invasive procedure..

Of course its invasive but then if she had carried her baby to term she would have faced many invasive procedures. The fact she has such a hard time dealing with it means she needs help beyond the physical. She needs to talk to someone. She can't undo what she did but she doesn't have to suffer for the rest of her life, she can move on from it and be happy.

Tipsygypsy

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

While that's the case where the male may wish to keep the child and the female doesn't. But if you reverse the situation and the father doesn't want it.
Is it equitable and fair for a woman to insist they have to take responsibility for this for the coming 18+ years, incurring a significant financial and emotional burden ?

No, its not. I'm not saying its fair. But her keeping or not keeping the child doesn't interfere with his physical autonomy. And thats the key to me. It is wrong to force someone through a traumatic physical experience against their will.

I also think fathers rights in this country need to be addressed, but it is a topic that Im far less well-read on. So no, I dont think its fair. But I dont see a way that satisfies both sides and I consider the existance of a child who is not wanted by it father a much lesser injustice than the forcing of a pregnancy on a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant.

christmas2012

Of course its invasive but then if she had carried her baby to term she would have faced many invasive procedures.

she was just short of 3 months and still got the abortion procedure,not a pretty sight and certainly she did tell me she remembered some bits of it..so ya it was horrific for her,the pain afterwards,the fact she only got one paracetemol pill afterwards and on her way,the infection,it was all a bit much for her..

hattoncracker

Christmas, you have already said on this thread that your friend doesn't regret her decision, but the procedure was painful.

Is that not the same as most medical procedures?

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't agree. I think people look too much at the UK model as a potential for what might happen here.

I think in some cases abortion is too easy to get in the Uk. I would like abortion here but I would like compulsory counselling so that the women isn't making a choice under pressure. Thats not the case in the UK, also abortion is free in the UK once you have been referred by a doctor.

Irish women have to pay and I think that alone makes them think a bit more deeply about it.

How can you "not agree" with how someone else feels?? It's not up to you to agree or not, or decide if I am right or wrong to feel the way I feel...

I dont think its right for abortion to be free, it doesn't seem right that taxpayers should have to pay for something that so many people are completely opposed to.

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

she was just short of 3 months and still got the abortion procedure,not a pretty sight and certainly she did tell me she remembered some bits of it..so ya it was horrific for her,the pain afterwards,the fact she only got one paracetemol pill afterwards and on her way,the infection,it was all a bit much for her..

About the same time I had mine then. I don't know what to say to you. She was very unlucky. I didn't have any pain at all, very little bleeding and I was back in work two days later with no problems.

I would imagine its like anything medical, you just don't know what might happen. Things can go wrong. I don't think its common though, I've spoken to a lot of women over the years who have had abortions and never heard anything like that before.

christmas2012

Well it did happen and it was awful for her she was crying a lot afterwards i could tell she was in pain and asked her stupidly ' was she alright' , you know this has stuck with me too..