Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

_rebelkid

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Once that rubicon is crossed the fllodgates will open...

Here we go again, the same logical fallacy.

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

And not one mention of the Right to life of unborn babies.

A recurring theme in this thread from our Atheist friends..:(

I was drawing parallels with your position and the irony that you share more in common with Apartheid supporters rather than their opposition.

Why I would have to mention the right to life while commenting on that, I'll never know. But you fire ahead with the cheap attempts at point scoring, it might deflect from your anti-democratic ideology.

Silvio.Dante

lazygal wrote: »

Babies aren't killed. Pregnancy that, for example, threatens the life of a suicidal 14 year old rape victim, will be terminated.

Intentionally killing an innocent unborn baby is what X is all about, as you confirm here.

Silvio.Dante

koth wrote: »

I was drawing parallels with your position and the irony that you share more in common with Apartheid supporters rather than their opposition.

Why I would have to mention the right to life while commenting on that, I'll never know. But you fire ahead with the cheap attempts at point scoring, it might deflect from your anti-democratic ideology.

Nope, still not a word of concern for the unborn...:(

Lingua Franca

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

How many babies have survived a visit to a Marie Stopes Clinic..?

You're the one that saying that some foetuses survive terminations in Irish hospitals. Can you show your evidence of this?

Lingua Franca

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Nope, still not a word of concern for the unborn...:(

You'll find that the recurring themes in this thread are: a deliberately trite and obtuse post finished with an emoticon instead of a full stop, and someone constantly whining that no one else cares about the babbies.

Nodin

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

And not one mention of the Right to life of unborn babies.

A recurring theme in this thread from our Atheist friends..:(

"waaah, de baybees" isn't going to cut it here. Its been made clear that the majority here don't regard a foetus as such so I'd suggest putting two and two together and getting four.

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Nope, still not a word of concern for the unborn...:(

Fine, let's play silly with Silvio.

I'm appalled that you would require unborn children that are not compatible with life be carried to term. It is beyond cruel to do such a thing. How could any humane person allow sentience to develop in a child that is destined for an all too short and painful life? It actually turns my stomach that you seem so pleased with yourself that you hold to such a contemptible position.

Obliq

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Very simple.

The thin end of the wedge whereby a claim of suicide will be considered in allowing an unborn baby to be exterminated.

Once that rubicon is crossed the fllodgates will open...

Ah look peeps, he's back taking the pee again and having a laugh winding us up - why are ye all responding? He'll get himself banned again eventually. This particular comment is plainly a caricature of the anti-choice carry-on.

Silvio, y'know - it's quite clever what you're doing - having a little pro-life rant for yourself on every comment so as to wind up a large number of people. You are most successful at it I must say. But it's navel gazing on your part. It's pointless, except to give yourself a chuckle. Boards.ie doesn't seem to hand out medals for most irritating troll.

I'm bored. Someone message me when he's banned again, eh?

swampgas

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Very simple.

The thin end of the wedge whereby a claim of suicide will be considered in allowing an unborn baby to be exterminated.

Once that rubicon is crossed the fllodgates will open...

The thin end of the wedge argument doesn't really hold up though - unless you don't like the idea of the people getting used to abortion legislation being updated to reflect changes in the democratic consensus.

Basically what you are saying is that your minority religious/ideological objection to abortion trumps everyone else's right to decide the medical treatments they want to see in Irish hospitals.

Do you really think women in Ireland should meekly accept your self-appointed role as arbiter of what happens inside their own bodies?

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Intentionally killing an innocent unborn baby is what X is all about, as you confirm here.

Its not a baby. Its a pregnancy that threatens the life of the mother...

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

Its not a baby. Its a pregnancy that threatens the life of the mother...

it's a murderer :eek:

aloyisious

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I may be missing the point. Can you explain where you feel this particular senator is out of touch and/or insensitive to herself?

Maybe the paper's report was edited and excluded a part where the senator mentioned how many doctors gave evidence (or whatever term is correct for their input) to the committee, but I doubt that the way she mentioned doctors could be read as anything but ever so slightly weighted to portray a misleading picture as to how many doctors were there. Maybe it could be said that the committee members did not ask the doctors pertinent questions.

As for the remark about how safe Ireland is for mothers giving birth, that is debatable and probably would end up with statistics being quoted. The Senator seem's to not be aware, or not read up on the topic, that mothers do die during or after childbirth, of complications directly related to the childbirth, in Ireland. She also, in the newspaper report, seem's to have made no reference to the death of Savita, even though that death occurred before the committee sat to hear evidence and was a major item in the print and other media sources here in Ireland for some weeks on an almost daily basis. There was no real escaping that story.

Re the part of being insensitive to herself, that's a bit misleading. She's not supposed to be a Mé Féin representative, but one to be responsive to all in the Republic, men, women and children.

Obliq

Did anyone see this on the 1st on http://choiceireland.blogspot.ie/2008/02/happy-st-brigids-day-irelands-first.html btw? I think it's very interesting. I'd love to see proof of the older translations of Cogitosus that apparently include this record.


"Happy St Brigid's Day – Ireland's first abortionist

Ireland's only female patron saint, Brigid of Kildare, celebrates her feast day today, February 1st. A date that is traditionally the first day of spring, and chosen presumably because of the associations St Brigid has with fertility. She was a conglomeration of the pre-Christian goddesses that preceded her – a Celtic figure appropriated by the Church to boost pagan conversion. She was subsequently ousted in favour of the patriarchal figure of St Patrick and the impossible virgin-mother Mary.

While many will know that Brigid is a patron of healing, fertility and learning, the Church are not so quick to tell us she was in fact Ireland's first recorded abortionist. In 650 AD a biographer of Brigid, Cogitosus, told the story of a young woman who had broken her vow of chastity and fell pregnant as a result. The young woman went to see Brigid, who took care of the problem:

Brigid, exercising with the most strength of her ineffable faith, blessed her, caused the fetus to disappear without coming to birth, and without pain.

Today, of course, Brigid would be excommunicated for this 'miracle', which explains why this particular biographical sketch does not appear in any of the annals of history sanctioned by the Church. It is well documented in detail in the original writings of Cogitosus and yet it conveniently remains absent from modern translations. In the 7th century, Brigid performed an abortion on a young woman. This was perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the Church then and her ability to 'cause the fetus to disappear' was considered nothing short of a miracle. If she lived today, Pope Benedict XVI would tell us that she was 'co-operating in evil'. How times change.

Current Church teaching on this is a manifestation of patriarchy. Just as 'Saint Brigid' is an embodiment of goddesses past, the story of her kindness in helping another woman reflects what women have been doing for each other since time began – privately, and with love and consideration. A woman’s autonomy over her own life and body should not be crushed in order to achieve a moral or religious goal. This is something that Brigid herself acknowledged, and the Church would do well to remember - before labelling those who support the modern equivalent to the actions Brigid took as the 'gravest injustice'. It is time to take the rosaries away from ovaries and today remember just who St Brigid was – Ireland’s first abortionist."

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Did anyone see this on the 1st on http://choiceireland.blogspot.ie/2008/02/happy-st-brigids-day-irelands-first.html btw? I think it's very interesting. I'd love to see proof of the older translations of Cogitosus that apparently include this record.

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic259231.files/Cogitosus.pdf

p37.

http://archive.org/stream/lifeofstbrigidvi00ohanuoft/lifeofstbrigidvi00ohanuoft_djvu.txt

got bored looking for page number...sorry...:o

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic259231.files/Cogitosus.pdf

p37.

http://archive.org/stream/lifeofstbrigidvi00ohanuoft/lifeofstbrigidvi00ohanuoft_djvu.txt

got bored looking for page number...sorry...:o

Ha! Y 'all over tat like a gud thaang :cool: Goin 2 look a those now. Gosh, history is interesting.....;)

Silvio.Dante

Lingua Franca wrote: »

You're the one that saying that some foetuses survive terminations in Irish hospitals. Can you show your evidence of this?

Terminations where the baby is viable obviously...

Silvio.Dante

Nodin wrote: »

"waaah, de baybees" isn't going to cut it here.

Clearly...:(

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Clearly...:(

that's actually a good thing, it's a discussion forum not a sloganeering forum.

Try engaging in discussion and maybe get a bit more in depth with your arguments, it might lead to a better experience for all involved

Lingua Franca

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Terminations where the baby is viable obviously...

You do not understand the terminology you're using.

And please contribute something to the debate, this is getting tedious.

Silvio.Dante

swampgas wrote: »

The thin end of the wedge argument doesn't really hold up though - unless you don't like the idea of the people getting used to abortion legislation being updated to reflect changes in the democratic consensus.

Basically what you are saying is that your minority religious/ideological objection to abortion trumps everyone else's right to decide the medical treatments they want to see in Irish hospitals.

Do you really think women in Ireland should meekly accept your self-appointed role as arbiter of what happens inside their own bodies?

Intentionally killing unborn babies is wrong in my view and I'm choosing to join in the lobbying campaign of the Life movements to prevent its introduction into Ireland.

Success or failure remains to be seen...

Silvio.Dante

Lingua Franca wrote: »

You do not understand the terminology you're using.

Oh I do..:)

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Intentionally killing unborn babies is wrong in my view and I'm choosing to join in the lobbying campaign of the Life movements to prevent its introduction into Ireland.

Success or failure remains to be seen...

Termination/abortion already takes place in Irish hospitals. We're just making sure doctors won't be imprisoned for saving women's lives......

Lingua Franca

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Oh I do..:)

No, you absolutely don't.

It's medical terminology and you cannot redefine it to suit yourself. A live birth is not a termination of pregnancy.

swampgas

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Intentionally killing unborn babies is wrong in my view and I'm choosing to join in the lobbying campaign of the Life movements to prevent its introduction into Ireland.

Sure, I can see that. However I think you should be open to the fact that a majority of people in this country may - in their view - be in favour of abortion to a greater degree than you are.

If you cannot bring a majority of Irish people around to your point of view, I don't think you should be spending American money on a slick campaign to try to pressurise TDs directly instead. It's unethical, undemocratic, and deeply disrespectful of the equally deeply held views of your fellow citizens.

Silvio.Dante

lazygal wrote: »

Termination/abortion already takes place in Irish hospitals. We're just making sure doctors won't be imprisoned for saving women's lives......

Give it your best shot...:)

Silvio.Dante

Lingua Franca wrote: »

No, you absolutely don't.

It's medical terminology and you cannot redefine it to suit yourself. A live birth is not a termination of pregnancy.

Of course it is...

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Give it your best shot...:)

I don't know what that means....
Termination/abortion already takes place in Irish hospitals....
The legal situation is being clarified.....

Silvio.Dante

swampgas wrote: »

Sure, I can see that. However I think you should be open to the fact that a majority of people in this country may - in their view - be in favour of abortion to a greater degree than you are.

If you cannot bring a majority of Irish people around to your point of view, I don't think you should be spending American money on a slick campaign to try to pressurise TDs directly instead. It's unethical, undemocratic, and deeply disrespectful of the equally deeply held views of your fellow citizens.

I whole heartedly disagree with you...

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic259231.files/Cogitosus.pdf

p37.

http://archive.org/stream/lifeofstbrigidvi00ohanuoft/lifeofstbrigidvi00ohanuoft_djvu.txt

got bored looking for page number...sorry...:o

Wow Bann. That Brigid was one seriously talented woman. I finally found the reference in the harvard pdf (......the full text of the Life of St.Brigid might be a bit trickier alright. Just spent 1/2hr on it and I'm up to her early teens (I think) where she's alternately wooed by poets/sold into slavery (*cough* sounds familiar....).)

Thanks a mill for the links -look how many useful things she does - Not content with miraculously ending pregnancies, she also makes salt from rock, turns water into beer, miraculously cures blindness, a dog guards meat for her and most miraculously, her mantle is not stained by raw meat.