Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

How can you "not agree" with how someone else feels?? It's not up to you to agree or not, or decide if I am right or wrong to feel the way I feel...

I dont think its right for abortion to be free, it doesn't seem right that taxpayers should have to pay for something that so many people are completely opposed to.

So we're going to argue about my phrasing now are we? :rolleyes: You know the point I was trying to make.

OldNotWIse

Gbear wrote: »

This would be a fairly reasonable argument but the problem is that you're arguing it from ignorance.

Making abortion illegal doesn't appear to affect rates. Countries in which abortion is illegal have higher rates of abortion than those where it's legal.
For example, Massachusetts has a lower rate of abortion than Mississippi despite it being legal in Massachusetts.

I would argue that rates of abortion have very little to do with the legality and everything to do with education and access to contraception.
All making illegal does is decrease the safety of the procedure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/18/abortion-rates-higher-countries-illegal-study_n_1215045.html

Er....what??

And I'm arguing from a place of ignorance???

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

So we're going to argue about my phrasing now are we? :rolleyes: You know the point I was trying to make.

I clearly dont know the point you were trying to make, given my response?

If I say, "I am happy that abortion is not legal here" you can't "disagree" with this... its how I feel. Much the same way that I cant disgaree with you being happy that you were able to travel. It's how you/I feel, and not really disputable. Is that ok?

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

Well it did happen and it was awful for her she was crying a lot afterwards i could tell she was in pain and asked her stupidly ' was she alright' , you know this has stuck with me too..

I'm not doubting you, I just don't think its right that you think her experience is normal when so many other women don't go through anything like that.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

Yes. I was treated very well, no pain after, no need for medication. Its four years later and I have been able to have another child no problem. I'm very happy in myself.

Good you could have another child, and good you didn't have bad side effects. This may surprise you but people do not want you to have side effects as some kind of punishment, they simply want to point out the reality for some.

Personally I coudlnt live with myself if I had an abortion, and I think having another child would compound it for me because I wouldnt be able to look at him/her without thinking about what the other child would be like now, but everybody is different in how they deal with things in life, and whether or not we agree/disagree with abortion, its certainly not our place to dictate to other people how they should deal with an abortion, or say that there is a right or wrong way to feel.

christmas2012

I'm not doubting you, I just don't think its right that you think her experience is normal when so many other women don't go through anything like that.

With abortion and the nature of it being an invasive procedure , you do experience pain unless you have no nerve endings whatsoever..

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

yeah feeling like been gutted from the inside out - POSTIVE EXPERIENCE.Right?

Emotive language doesn't mean it's the same case for every individual.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

With abortion and the nature of it being an invasive procedure , you do experience pain unless you have no nerve endings whatsoever..

And like any surgical procedure you get pain relief, as has been pointed out to you, I believe.

christmas2012

Emotive language doesn't mean it's the same case for every individual.

what she felt was not emotional pain,it was physical pain,the emotional pain came afterwards..

And like any surgical procedure you get pain relief, as has been pointed out to you, I believe.

Pain relief was one stingy paracetemol tablet,hardly sufficed i have to say,and i would like to share this story with people,espeically those who idealise abortion as the cure all method..Its not it can leave long lasting emotional scars and physically painful memories..

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Good you could have another child, and good you didn't have bad side effects. This may surprise you but people do not want you to have side effects as some kind of punishment, they simply want to point out the reality for some.

Personally I coudlnt live with myself if I had an abortion, and I think having another child would compound it for me because I wouldnt be able to look at him/her without thinking about what the other child would be like now, but everybody is different in how they deal with things in life, and whether or not we agree/disagree with abortion, its certainly not our place to dictate to other people how they should deal with an abortion, or say that there is a right or wrong way to feel.

As I have said before I am just giving my experience, all stories good and bad are needed. I don't believe in sugar coating it but then again I don't like the idea of one bad story being put out there as the norm.

Funnily enough I would have said the same a few years ago. I had my first child in my teens and never even thought about abortion then so I never expected to be in a position where it became an option for me but things don't always go to plan and that's where I ended up.

I don't think about it anymore that much really, I don't really look at my kids now and think about the other baby. I know some women do and I'm very thankful not to have to deal with that. It must be awful. I did get a lot of counselling though so I think that's why I am in such a good place now.

eyescreamcone

If it became impossible in the morning for Irish women to obtain an abortion abroad, what would we do??
How would we provide for the 5000+ Irish women who have abortions abroad every year???

Would we force them to complete their pregnancies?
Or would we have to increase our health service provision in this area to cater for the problems created by back street abortions?

Thank you Britain and Holland (and the other countries) for treating our women with respect and dignity when they are at their most vulnerable.

In a nice shiney, ordered world there would be no need for abortions!
But the world is not always shiney and ordered.
Somebody has to clean up the mess when the sh!t hits the fan.
At the moment Ireland is pretending that there is no problem.
We are the ostriches of Europe.

Let's grow a pair and sort this legislation out.

To those that are anti-abortion I say:
Wake up, your solutions are not working!!!
They have never worked!!!
We need to legislate to protect our women in our OWN country.

No what ifs, or buts!
Just get on with it!!!

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

With abortion and the nature of it being an invasive procedure , you do experience pain unless you have no nerve endings whatsoever..

I didn't. And I have plenty of nerve endings. I can't even stand a leg wax I'm that bad

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

what she felt was not emotional pain,it was physical pain,the emotional pain came afterwards..



Pain relief was one stingy paracetemol tablet,hardly sufficed i have to say,and i would like to share this story with people,espeically those who idealise abortion as the cure all method..Its not it can leave long lasting emotional scars and physically painful memories..

How is your friend now?

christmas2012

I can't even stand a leg wax I'm that bad

so now you are comparing an invasive abortion to waxing a leg??????if youre trying to discredit yourself youre doing a good job.

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

so now you are comparing an invasive abortion to waxing a leg??????if youre trying to discredit yourself youre doing a good job.

No I'm saying I have a very low pain threshold. I scream and roar at things most people can do no bother. Despite that I was still able to come out of an abortion with little pain so how you can say its always going to be painful is frankly bull.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

i would like to share this story with people,espeically those who idealise abortion as the cure all method..Its not it can leave long lasting emotional scars and physically painful memories..

So can chemotherapy. What does abortion cure and who idealises it?

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

so now you are comparing an invasive abortion to waxing a leg??????if youre trying to discredit yourself youre doing a good job.

Most surgery is invasive. What's your point in repeatedly using that word?

christmas2012

An invasive procedure - NOT PAINFUL????????? You are doing yourself a disservice by discrediting yourself.

robindch

christmas2012 - eviltwin is not comparing an abortion to leg-waxing. Please look at the moderator warnings that have appeared at regular intervals through this thread concerning unhelpful comments. Your most recent two comments are teetering on the edge of being deleted.

thanks.

christmas2012

Most surgery is invasive. What's your point in repeatedly using that word?

Oldhippy peoples ears prick up and they start to get defensive and jump on the abortion bandwagon when the realise there is a few people out there WHO DO KNOW ABOUT ABORTION,and do not go out of their way to idealise it,and know its NOT a positive experience,how could anybody say a horribly invasive procedure is a good experience?

OldNotWIse

eyescreamcone wrote: »

If it became impossible in the morning for Irish women to obtain an abortion abroad, what would we do??
How would we provide for the 5000+ Irish women who have abortions abroad every year???

Would we force them to complete their pregnancies?
Or would we have to increase our health service provision in this area to cater for the problems created by back street abortions?

Thank you Britain and Holland (and the other countries) for treating our women with respect and dignity when they are at their most vulnerable.

In a nice shiney, ordered world there would be no need for abortions!
But the world is not always shiney and ordered.
Somebody has to clean up the mess when the sh!t hits the fan.
At the moment Ireland is pretending that there is no problem.
We are the ostriches of Europe.

Let's grow a pair and sort this legislation out.

To those that are anti-abortion I say:
Wake up, your solutions are not working!!!
They have never worked!!!
We need to legislate to protect our women in our OWN country.

No what ifs, or buts!
Just get on with it!!!

Such an aggressive post - using exclamation marks is not going to frighten people into voting as you wish.

christmas2012

ok mod note accepted

OldNotWIse

christmas2012 wrote: »

Oldhippy peoples ears prick up and they start to get defensive and jump on the abortion bandwagon when the realise there is a few people out there WHO DO KNOW ABOUT ABORTION,and do not go out of their way to idealise it,and know its NOT a positive experience,how could anybody say a horribly invasive procedure is a good experience?

I know someone who had one then won the lotto and got a huge promotion

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

An invasive procedure - NOT PAINFUL????????? You are doing yourself a disservice by discrediting yourself.

It wasn't painful for me at all. The device used was very small, it was like the thing they use to give a smear, honestly it was not at all painful. I did have some mild cramping but nothing major, it wasn't as bad as I expected. I was allowed to rest for about half an hour after and then I was fine to get up again. I didn't need the medication - I was given three pills but didn't take them. I was told I could be given a prescription if I wanted but again didn't need it.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Oldhippy peoples ears prick up and they start to get defensive and jump on the abortion bandwagon when the realise there is a few people out there WHO DO KNOW ABOUT ABORTION,and do not go out of their way to idealise it,and know its NOT a positive experience,how could anybody say a horribly invasive procedure is a good experience?

Most surgery is invasive and most is carried out for positive reasons, abortion included. Using capital letters isn't going to win your argument.

If it saves the mother from a life of misery and regret, I'd say it's a positive experience.

Sin City

eyescreamcone wrote: »

If it became impossible in the morning for Irish women to obtain an abortion abroad, what would we do??
How would we provide for the 5000+ Irish women who have abortions abroad every year???

Would we force them to complete their pregnancies?
Or would we have to increase our health service provision in this area to cater for the problems created by back street abortions?

Thank you Britain and Holland (and the other countries) for treating our women with respect and dignity when they are at their most vulnerable.

In a nice shiney, ordered world there would be no need for abortions!
But the world is not always shiney and ordered.
Somebody has to clean up the mess when the sh!t hits the fan.
At the moment Ireland is pretending that there is no problem.
We are the ostriches of Europe.

Let's grow a pair and sort this legislation out.

To those that are anti-abortion I say:
Wake up, your solutions are not working!!!
They have never worked!!!
We need to legislate to protect our women in our OWN country.

No what ifs, or buts!
Just get on with it!!!

Scaremongering wont work here

If you have points or arguements make them no need to come accross as aggressive just because you disagree with the current situation

Sin City

Sin City wrote: »

Scaremongering wont work here

If you have points or arguements make them no need to come accross as aggressive just because you disagree with the current situation

Can I also add

The 1978 American Convention on Human Rights states, in Article 4.1, "Every person has the right to have his life respected. This right shall be protected by law and, in general, from the moment of conception

In 1983, the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland, also known as the "Pro-Life Amendment," was added to the Constitution of The Republic of Ireland by popular referendum. It recognizes "the right to life of the unborn"


In 1993, the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany held that the constitution guaranteed a right to life from conception, but that it is within the discretion of parliament not to punish abortion in the first trimester, providing that women agreed to undergo special counselling designed to discourage termination and "protect unborn life


Your proposed changes would infringe all fetal rights

Tipsygypsy

Christmas2012, first of all I am really sorry for your friend, it sounds like she had a really hard time. Im sure it was made even harder by the fact that she had to travel to England to go through it, it would have been so much better for her is she'd been able to see a specialist in Ireland, so she could go back to get further medication if she needed it. What a pity her Doctor had a long waiting time too, and that the pharmacy couldnt order in the medication she needed quickly, thats pretty unusual, they normally stay pretty well stocked. Of course none of these issues are anything to do with the actual procedure. You've said she felt like she was being gutted from the inside out, well that sounds horrendous and certainly nothing like any of the first hand experiences I've ever heard. Especially in an abortion under 3 months, where the fetus is only 2-3 inches in size. It sounds like she had a really bad experiance. Its wonderful though that, as you said earlier, she doesn't regret it.

I would like you to bear in mind though, that the experience that you describe (as a second hand teller) is very very very different to what almost everyone else (telling their first hand storiees) describes, and that is why its important for you to understand that when you go on and on (as you have done - it is mentioned in most of your posts in here) about the one paracetamol and the no antibiotics and the horrendous pain, you are scaring people who might be in the process of making a very hard decision. You're scaring them and proclaiming that this is how abortions are, when in fact, it generally is not.

christmas2012

If it saves the mother from a life of misery and regret, I'd say it's a positive experience.

Thats the abortion argument right there - misery and regret..Pregnancy doesnt always have to be regretful,you are bringing a life into the world,you have a child,you are not going to grow old alone,you will have a child with you that will look after you in your old age..This is over looked by the abortion crowd..

And what if that pregnancy was the only chance you had of growing up and getting a job and getting on with life?

Pregnancy is not always a negative thing.Lots of women go through it,and come out the other side with the best of care.

Abortion after care is not existant,there are so many pit falls to having an abortion,not to mention the pain factor of such an invasive procedure,the risk of infection and future miscarraiges..

doctoremma

Sin City wrote: »

Yes life is meaningless and we are all just basic molecules kind of robs us of any ethical debate alright

M'eh, it fits with my innate laziness

Sin City wrote: »

The same can be said for newborns, all they do is react and not actually make any conscious actions...It was one of Warrens criteria in the philosophical debate at when personhood can be confired on an individual or potential person

Hmm, not sure I agree. How do we know babies don't make conscious actions - maybe they just lack the ability to execute them well enough for us to recognise them as such?

Sin City wrote: »

But that meaning comes from expierence, Its a learned responce so you have to expierence the pain (say heat) to be able to avoid it unconsciously the next time. But if expierence is a criteria then before you expeirence anything are you not viable for personhood?

I agree and it's a slight sticking point for a threshold defined at the perception of pain. If it's not meaningful pain i.e. with no psychological element, does it matter?