Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

eviltwin

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So, in your view the Eucharist should be available to all, no matter their deeds..?

Its only a piece of aul bread. What's the problem? I've not to mass in a long long time but everytime I go to a church for a wedding or funeral I usually go up and have it out of habit. Am I going to go to hell when I die? :eek::(

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

There's no legislation until its passed by the Dail. If a majority reject X legislation, there is no legislation...

And how exactly does that show that the government don't have to legislate for X? They're required to do so.

Genghiz Cohen

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

There's no legislation until its passed by the Dail. If a majority reject X legislation, there is no legislation...

So they draw up a new one.
And if that get's voted down a new one, and again and again and again.
Until we have legislation.

robindch

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

If my presence here offends you so much go right ahead and ban me but quit the sanctimonious pomposity...

A+A is an internet discussion forum which has a reasonably strict forum charter designed to keep discussion as civil, and as interesting as possible.

If you don't wish to stick to these terms and conditions, then don't bother posting here.

This is your final warning.

seamus

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

They excommunicate thmeselves by their unrepented acts...

Not according to canon law.

Dades

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

They excommunicate thmeselves by their unrepented acts...

You cannot excommunicate yourself, any more than you can throw yourself out of a nightclub.

If you could, there'd be some cheer to be heard from the regulars here.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

You cannot excommunicate yourself, any more than you can throw yourself out of a nightclub.

Oddly enough, under canon law, you can excommunicate yourself, or at least, you can perform certain actions which incur an automatic excommunication.

The Vatican has two forms of sentence: ferendae sententiae and latae sententiae. The first must be handed down by a suitably-convened canon law court and constitutes an active decision by the church. The second one, which is the one that Silvio is referring to, is a decision which follows automatically from the some event, and doesn't require the intervention of any canon court and can simply be announced as having taken place by virtue of some action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

Actions which incur latae sententiae include the procurement of abortion, the illegal assumption of title within the church and a few other things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_of_Margaret_McBride
http://www.ucanews.com/news/vatican-excommunicates-leshan-bishop/23150

Silvio.Dante

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

So they draw up a new one.
And if that get's voted down a new one, and again and again and again.
Until we have legislation.

Exactly... You never know, there may even be a wording that Life people can accept...:)

Silvio.Dante

seamus wrote: »

Not according to canon law.

Go on then.

Quote us the relevant passages...

Genghiz Cohen

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Exactly... You never know, there may even be a wording that Life people can accept...:)

Like: "If the doctor 'slips' and 'inadvertently' causes a woman to miscarry/abort a pregnancy 'by accident' after she has been shown to be in real danger then that's just gravy." ?

oldrnwisr

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Go on then.

Quote us the relevant passages...

OK then.


As Robin pointed out, automatic or latae sententiae excommunication is incurred for several "offenses" including, in the context of this debate:

"accomplices without whose assistance a violation of a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication would not have been committed."

The relevant passages of Canon Law are 1321-1330 which detail the offenses.

However, what is more relevant in terms of Burke's statement about communion is Canon 915 which states:

"Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion."

The two phrases in bold are the important parts of the Canon. The consensus among Canon law experts is that both factors must be simultaneously and clearly present before a priest can consider withholding communion. In other words, the person (TD in this case) would have to be unrepentant of his/her sin even following dialogue with the priest in question.

The topic is expanded on here:

Denying Communion to Someone



Now if you wouldn't mind answering one question:

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

There's no legislation until its passed by the Dail. If a majority reject X legislation, there is no legislation...

What makes you think that our politicians (whatever your views might be about them already) would be stupid or suicidal enough to a) vote against their own party and b) vote against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of their constituents in rejecting legislation on X??

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Oddly enough, under canon law, you can excommunicate yourself, or at least, you can perform certain actions which incur an automatic excommunication.

I assume however, the excommunication needs to be recorded to be official.

i.e. You can't say every catholic who has procured an abortion has been excommunicated... as their case has not come to the attention of those who record such events? Excommunication, unlike say, baptism, isn't a supernatural event and therefore requires a religious bureaucrat to formalise it.

krankykitty

As far as I have heard before also, excommunication only means you don't get the sacraments, you're still considered a Catholic and expected to attend mass etc..

robindch

Dades wrote: »

[...] the excommunication needs to be recorded to be official [...] Excommunication, unlike say, baptism, isn't a supernatural event and therefore requires a religious bureaucrat to formalise it.

Latae sententiae happens by virtue of some action and de-facto excommunication from the institution of the church is the result.

It's irrelevant whether the church knows about the action, or whether it chooses to announce the excommunication if it does know about the action. The person's still excommunicated in their heart

lazygal

robindch wrote: »

Latae sententiae happens by virtue of some action and de-facto excommunication from the institution of the church is the result.

It's irrelevant whether the church knows about the action, or whether it chooses to announce the excommunication if it does know about the action. The person's still excommunicated in their heart

Is that the Catholic version of don't ask, don't tell?

Dades

robindch wrote: »

It's irrelevant whether the church knows about the action, or whether it chooses to announce the excommunication if it does know about the action. The person's still excommunicated in their heart

I'm confused as to where the blood-pumping organ comes into it, but hey, the church moves in mysterious ways.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

I'm confused as to where the blood-pumping organ comes into it, but hey, the church moves in mysterious ways.

Well, let's say that I think the way it works is that the church rituals and the general religious hootin' and tootin' are believed to be valueless when the person carrying them out is excommunicated

ie, the church's view is that somebody will have broken one of god's rules, so god just ain't gonna be listening when the person comes a-knocking.

aloyisious

Latae sententiae is a Latin phrase, meaning "sentence (already) passed", used in the canon law of the Catholic Church.
A latae sententiae penalty is one that follows ipso facto or automatically, by force of the law itself, when a law is contravened

It seem's (under canon law) that by carrying out the act of abortion, the doctor concerned (and also the woman on whom the operation is performed) are, ipso facto, automatically excommunicated from the RC Church.

a person who procures a completed abortion;[12]
accomplices without whose assistance a violation of a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication would not have been committed.[13]


reference address: http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=latae%20sententiae&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLatae_sententiae&ei=uJ8SUYnTDsiBhQej1IG4Dw&usg=AFQjCNEyt8rH9mDQyuUb_2tKISp5gsjYLA&bvm=bv.41934586,d.ZG4

Para 4 (excommuniactions) refers.

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

Well, let's say that I think the way it works is that the church rituals and the general religious hootin' and tootin' are believed to be valueless when the person carrying them out is excommunicated

ie, the church's view is that somebody will have broken one of god's rules, so god just ain't gonna be listening when the person comes a-knocking.

Nope, that's not the understanding at all. Excommunication prevents the offender from taking part in (most) celebrations of the sacraments. The intention is to call the offender's attention to the gravity of his conduct, and to call him to repentance. (Whether that's the effect is another matter entirely, but it's the intention.) Excommunication doesn't make you "not a Catholic", and it has no effect at all on the efficacy (or otherwise) of your prayer, or on your standing with God. (The conduct which led to the excommunication may have implications for your relationship with God but the excommunication itself, no.)

Morag

It effects your standing in the community and if you can have a catholic burial.
I can't be expected to be godparent or sponsor and won't be buried with catholic rites
so suits me.

Morag

I hope it's ok to post this here if not mods please delete.

There's an exhibition looking for stories and contributions, written or recorded about those fetus pins and other symbolism used by the pro life side.

http://www.10weeks.org/10-weeks-exhibition/

'10 weeks' - a response to misappropriation of language and symbols by the Pro Life movement

Bannasidhe

This was just posted by a friend of mine on FB

Google have allowed an anti choice ad to get played before videos on Youtube. I just discovered it this morning while looking at Super Bowl videos. The advert depicts Cork women talking about the child having an equal right to life to the mother and why abortion must not be allowed in Ireland. I am pretty sure that this infringes upon the ASAI (Advertising Standards Association of Irelands) regulations. I expect Google has to comply with these regulations. I would recommend members [Cork Feminista] , if they come across it to take a screen capture or find out the source link. I skipped the ad before realising what I should have done. But if anyone can get the source link or the Organisation profile it can be reported to the ASAI via http://asai.ie/complain.asp - Their mandate applies to internet advertisements also.

PopePalpatine

Wow, this makes me glad that I'm only getting ads for Guinness! :eek:

oldrnwisr

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This was just posted by a friend of mine on FB

Sorry Bannasidhe but I wouldn't waste your time. The ASAI won't get involved. While the medium of the advertising is within the scope of the ASAI's remit, the nature of the advertising isn't.

From the ASAI Code:

1.5


The Code does not apply to:


(f) marketing communications whose principal purpose is to express the advertiser's position on a political, religious, industrial relations, social or aesthetic matter or on an issue of public interest or concern;

ASAI - Scope and Application


I've been down this road with the ASAI and YD before with those horrific dishonest billboards about stem cell research. I got a nice letter from the ASAI but that's about it.

Bannasidhe

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Sorry Bannasidhe but I wouldn't waste your time. The ASAI won't get involved. While the medium of the advertising is within the scope of the ASAI's remit, the nature of the advertising isn't.

From the ASAI Code:



ASAI - Scope and Application


I've been down this road with the ASAI and YD before with those horrific dishonest billboards about stem cell research. I got a nice letter from the ASAI but that's about it.

Ah well. Thanks oldrnwisr - will pass the bad news along.

old hippy

Maybe we should have a whip round and put our own suitably worded advert on Youtube?

Morag

You could always donate to the Irish Choice Network as they will have a new campaign rolling out soon and don't have american dollars to pay for such ads.

http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/donations.html

Silvio.Dante

Morag wrote: »

You could always donate to the Irish Choice Network as they will have a new campaign rolling out soon and don't have american dollars to pay for such ads.

http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/donations.html

Why bother when our taxes directly fund the National Womens' Council who openly advocate for abortion in Ireland...

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Why bother when our taxes directly fund the National Womens' Council who openly advocate for abortion in Ireland...

I know, its great.

Morag

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Why bother when our taxes directly fund the National Womens' Council who openly advocate for abortion in Ireland...

The money they get is already allocated and they won't be diverting those funds into a separate campaign.