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Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !
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Silvio.Dante wrote: »I see a Mod thanked this post :rolleyes:
Show me where I have lied, cheated or stolen. Failure to do so will atuomatically imply your retraction and acceptance by me...
No, Silvio, if you read back through the thread you'll see that this emerged thusly:In fairness Silvio is probably just projecting the approach the anti-abortion side takes onto everyone else as it's all they know. The any means justify the end approach. Just look at YD who have lied repeatedly, asked the government to cheat when it comes to how our republic operates and blatantly stole artistic materials to push their agenda. Is it any real surprise that someone so caught up in it thinks the other side are at it too? The paranoia is based somewhat in reality if just grossly misplaced.Silvio.Dante wrote: »If our campaign against X works then it most certainly will be justified...Eh I know that's what you believe because that was my point
You feel that it is ok to lie, cheat or steal to get what you want and that's your choice but it doesn't mean the other side are doing it too. The problem is that when you believe it's ok to do all this it is very hard to believe that the other side don't feel the same way and aren't also lying cheating or stealing to get their way. Therefore it makes sense to you that the report is not impartial but a conspiracy by the pro-choice side to lie and cheat their way to their desired end because if the other side we able to fudge the report they would. Projection.Silvio.Dante wrote: »Slander much..?
So the key question is, do you support the actions of Youth Defence, whose tactics you have used here in the past such as using words like holocaust and death camp (which FYI come from a book called Closed by Joseph Scheidler one of YDs most prominent fundraisers).
Now as for YDs tactics:
Lies1.Maternal mortality
"Ireland is the safest place in the world for a mother to have a baby according to the UN" [Source]This has been refuted numerous times. To summarise the important facts:- Abortion is not connected to maternal mortality, healthcare is. The countries at the top of the list all have legal abortion while countries with illegal abortion find themselves at the bottom (e.g. Afghanistan). There is no correlation nevermind causation.
- YD still use 2007 figures despite 2010 figures (and soon 2011) being available.
- The figures are compiled by the WHO alone, not the UN.
- Unsafe abortion, particularly in countries where it is illegal has been identified as a cause of maternal mortality, the opposite of what YD claims.
Trends in Maternal Mortality 1990-20102. Public opinionCheating
"The fact is, abortion kills children and harms women, and the majority of Irish people don’t want it legalised under ANY circumstances."[Source]
And, now the truth [source]:- A 1997 Irish Times/MRBI poll found that 18% believed that abortion should never be permitted, 77% believed that it should be allowed in certain circumstances (this was broken down into: 35% that one should be allowed in the event that the woman's life is threatened; 14% if her health is at risk; 28% that "an abortion should be provided to those who need it") and 5% were undecided.[14]
- A September 2004 Royal College of Surgeons survey for the Crisis Pregnancy Agency found that, in the under-45 age groups, 51% supported abortion on-demand, with 39% favouring the right to abortion in limited circumstances. Only 8% felt that abortion should not be permitted in any circumstances.[15]
- A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not.[16]
- A June 2007 TNS/MRBI poll found that 43% supported legal abortion if a woman believed it was in her best interest while 51% remained opposed. 82% favoured legalization for cases when the woman's life is in danger, 75% when the foetus cannot survive outside the womb, and 73% when the pregnancy has resulted from sexual abuse.[17]
- A January 2010 Irish Examiner/Red C online poll found that 60% of 18-35 year olds believe abortion should be legalised, and that 10% of this age group had been in a relationship where an abortion took place. The same survey also showed that 75% of women believed the morning-after pill should be an over-the-counter (OTC) drug, as opposed to a prescription drug.[18]
- A September 2012 Sunday Times/Behaviour and Attitudes poll of 923 people showed that 80% of voters would support a change to the law to allow abortion where the life of the woman was at risk, with 16% opposed and 4% undecided.[19]
- A November 2012 Sunday Business Post/Red C poll of 1,003 adults showed that 85% of voters would like the government to "Legislate for the X case, which means allowing abortion where the mother's life is threatened, including by suicide", with 10% opposed and 5% undecided. The same poll also found that 82% of voters supported "A constitutional amendment to extend the right to abortion to all cases where the health of the mother is seriously threatened and also in cases of rape", and 36% of voters supported "A constitutional amendment to allow for legal abortion in any case where a woman requests it". In addition, 63% of voters also supported "A constitutional amendment to limit the X case, by excluding a threat of suicide as a grounds for abortion, but still allowing abortion, where the mother's life is threatened outside of suicide".[20][21]
- A January 2013 Paddy Power/Red C poll of 1,002 adults found that 29% of voters believed that there should be a constitutional amendment to allow abortion "in any case where the woman requests it". 35% supported legislating for the X case allowing for abortions where the life of the mother is at risk, including from suicide. 26% supported legislating for the X case but excluding suicide and 8% believed no legislation at all was necessary.[22]
- A January 2013 Sunday Times/Behaviour and Attitudes poll of 916 voters found that 87% would support legislation to provide abortion where the woman's life was in danger for reasons other than threat of suicide, 80% would support legislation to provide abortion where there was a foetal abnormality meaning the baby could not survive outside of the womb, 74% would support legislation to provide abortion where the pregnancy was a result of rape, and 59% would support legislation to provide abortion where the woman displayed suicidal feelings. Overall, 92% supported allowing abortion in one of these four circumstances, while 51% supported allowing abortion in all four circumstances.[23]
- A February 2013 Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll of 1,000 voters in face-to-face interviews in all constituencies found that 84% felt that abortion should be allowed when the woman's life is at risk, 79% felt that abortion should be allowed whenever the foetus cannot survive outside the womb, 78% felt that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or incest, 71% felt that abortion should be allowed where the woman is suicidal as a result of the pregnancy (the X case result), 70% felt that abortion should be allowed when the woman's health is at risk, and 37% felt that abortion should be provided when a woman deems it to be in her best interest.
3. The necessity of abortion
"It’s a fact that abortion is never necessary to save the
life of a mother" [Source]
Ectopic pregnancy is defined as:
"An ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy that occurs outside the womb (uterus). It is a life-threatening condition to the mother. The baby (fetus) cannot survive."
The NIH guidelines for ectopic pregnancy state:
"Ectopic pregnancies is a life-threatening condition. The pregnancy cannot continue to birth (term). The developing cells must be removed to save the mother's life."
[Source]
4.Voting record
"He asserts that the Irish people voted to introduce abortion in 1992 and 2002, when, in fact, both those referenda - and subsequent opinion polls - show that the majority of people oppose legalising abortion.'"
Twelfth Amendment to the Constitution 1992
Proposed text:
"It shall be unlawful to terminate the life of an unborn unless such termination is necessary to save the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother where there is an illness or disorder of the mother giving rise to a real and substantial risk to her life, not being a risk of self-destruction."
Results:
For (Pro-Life): 572,177 (34.65%)
Against (Pro-Choice): 1,079,297 (65.35%)
Twenty-Fifth Amendment to the Constitution 2002
Proposed text:- Article 40.3.4:
- Article 40.3.5:
- Defined abortion as the destruction of unborn life after implantation in the womb.
- Permitted abortion where necessary to prevent loss of life other than by suicide.
- Reiterated that the right to freedom of travel is not affected by the ban on abortion.
- Made an unlawful abortion an offence punishable by up to twelve years in prison.
Results:
For: 618,485 (49.58%)
No: 629,041 (50.42%)
As if the misinformation above wasn't evidence enough of an underhand campaign on the part of YD, there is the fact that YD are lobbying everyone they can to subvert the constitution of the country. In particular:
Attorney General vs. X
The Supreme Court through legal precedent has established the right to abortion on the grounds of suicide, something that the Irish public has voted twice to protect in referenda. The weight of public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of legalised abortion (at least in this situation). Yet YD seeks to subvert both the will of the people and the constitution through misinformation and emotive lobbying. If that's not cheating I don't know what is.
Stealing
The one thing you have to give YD credit for is visibility. They are very good at making their misinformation visible to as many people as possible. However, you have to wonder where they get all those nice billboard images:
Oh, wait it's from Stock Photo:
And then there's this:
Not only is this misleading but it's also a direct violation of iStockphoto's Terms of Use:
use or display any Content that features a model or person in a manner (a) that would lead a reasonable person to think that such person uses or personally endorses any business, product, service, cause, association or other endeavour; or (b) except where accompanied by a statement that indicates that the Content is being used for illustrative purposes only and any person depicted in the Content is a model, that depicts such person in a potentially sensitive subject matter, including, but not limited to mental and physical health issues, social issues, sexual or implied sexual activity or preferences, substance abuse, crime, physical or mental abuse or ailments, or any other subject matter that would be reasonably likely to be offensive or unflattering to any person reflected in the Content, unless the Content itself clearly and undisputedly reflects the model or person in such potentially sensitive subject matter in which case the Content may be used or displayed in a manner that portrays the model or person in the same context and to the same degree depicted in the Content itself
More examples and analysis here.
And that's just the despicable activities of YD, in relation to abortion. That doesn't even begin to cover the other stuff they've gotten into which NotForResale summarised here.
So, once again: Do you support the actions of Youth Defence in the campagin against abortion?0 -
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My 78 year old mother went on an absolute rant yesterday on the topic of abortion. She is, and always has been, an advocate of a woman's right to choose.
She is a typical Irish Catholic woman, mother, grandmother and great-grandmother, (ex) FF voter, pays her Parish dues, goes to Mass, won't get divorced after 30 years separation as marriage is for 'life' yet there she was yesterday declaring she is fed up of listening to mostly men dictate what women can and cannot do with their own bodies.
In terms of her views on abortion provision she is pretty out there - while saying that she herself would never have gotten one - she believes abortion should be on demand and that men should not be allowed to vote on the issue as it's not their bodies involved.
78 years old folks and becoming more radicalised by the day by the likes of YD and Iona. I do hope they keep up the good work.
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No, Silvio, if you read back through the thread you'll see that this emerged thusly:
So the key question is, do you support the actions of Youth Defence, whose tactics you have used here in the past such as using words like holocaust and death camp (which FYI come from a book called Closed by Joseph Scheidler one of YDs most prominent fundraisers).
Now as for YDs tactics:
Lies1.Maternal mortality
"Ireland is the safest place in the world for a mother to have a baby according to the UN" [Source]This is a malicious and irrelevant falsehood which has been refuted numerous times. To summarise the important facts:- Abortion is not connected to maternal mortality, healthcare is. The countries at the top of the list all have legal abortion while countries with illegal abortion find themselves at the bottom (e.g. Afghanistan). There is no correlation nevermind causation.
- YD still use 2007 figures despite 2010 figures (and soon 2011) being available.
- The figures are compiled by the WHO alone, not the UN.
- Unsafe abortion, particularly in countries where it is illegal has been identified as a cause of maternal mortality, the opposite of what YD claims.
Trends in Maternal Mortality 1990-20102. Public opinionCheating
"The fact is, abortion kills children and harms women, and the majority of Irish people don’t want it legalised under ANY circumstances."[Source]
And, now the truth [source]:- A 1997 Irish Times/MRBI poll found that 18% believed that abortion should never be permitted, 77% believed that it should be allowed in certain circumstances (this was broken down into: 35% that one should be allowed in the event that the woman's life is threatened; 14% if her health is at risk; 28% that "an abortion should be provided to those who need it") and 5% were undecided.[14]
- A September 2004 Royal College of Surgeons survey for the Crisis Pregnancy Agency found that, in the under-45 age groups, 51% supported abortion on-demand, with 39% favouring the right to abortion in limited circumstances. Only 8% felt that abortion should not be permitted in any circumstances.[15]
- A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not.[16]
- A June 2007 TNS/MRBI poll found that 43% supported legal abortion if a woman believed it was in her best interest while 51% remained opposed. 82% favoured legalization for cases when the woman's life is in danger, 75% when the foetus cannot survive outside the womb, and 73% when the pregnancy has resulted from sexual abuse.[17]
- A January 2010 Irish Examiner/Red C online poll found that 60% of 18-35 year olds believe abortion should be legalised, and that 10% of this age group had been in a relationship where an abortion took place. The same survey also showed that 75% of women believed the morning-after pill should be an over-the-counter (OTC) drug, as opposed to a prescription drug.[18]
- A September 2012 Sunday Times/Behaviour and Attitudes poll of 923 people showed that 80% of voters would support a change to the law to allow abortion where the life of the woman was at risk, with 16% opposed and 4% undecided.[19]
- A November 2012 Sunday Business Post/Red C poll of 1,003 adults showed that 85% of voters would like the government to "Legislate for the X case, which means allowing abortion where the mother's life is threatened, including by suicide", with 10% opposed and 5% undecided. The same poll also found that 82% of voters supported "A constitutional amendment to extend the right to abortion to all cases where the health of the mother is seriously threatened and also in cases of rape", and 36% of voters supported "A constitutional amendment to allow for legal abortion in any case where a woman requests it". In addition, 63% of voters also supported "A constitutional amendment to limit the X case, by excluding a threat of suicide as a grounds for abortion, but still allowing abortion, where the mother's life is threatened outside of suicide".[20][21]
- A January 2013 Paddy Power/Red C poll of 1,002 adults found that 29% of voters believed that there should be a constitutional amendment to allow abortion "in any case where the woman requests it". 35% supported legislating for the X case allowing for abortions where the life of the mother is at risk, including from suicide. 26% supported legislating for the X case but excluding suicide and 8% believed no legislation at all was necessary.[22]
- A January 2013 Sunday Times/Behaviour and Attitudes poll of 916 voters found that 87% would support legislation to provide abortion where the woman's life was in danger for reasons other than threat of suicide, 80% would support legislation to provide abortion where there was a foetal abnormality meaning the baby could not survive outside of the womb, 74% would support legislation to provide abortion where the pregnancy was a result of rape, and 59% would support legislation to provide abortion where the woman displayed suicidal feelings. Overall, 92% supported allowing abortion in one of these four circumstances, while 51% supported allowing abortion in all four circumstances.[23]
- A February 2013 Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll of 1,000 voters in face-to-face interviews in all constituencies found that 84% felt that abortion should be allowed when the woman's life is at risk, 79% felt that abortion should be allowed whenever the foetus cannot survive outside the womb, 78% felt that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or incest, 71% felt that abortion should be allowed where the woman is suicidal as a result of the pregnancy (the X case result), 70% felt that abortion should be allowed when the woman's health is at risk, and 37% felt that abortion should be provided when a woman deems it to be in her best interest.
3. The necessity of abortion
"It’s a fact that abortion is never necessary to save the
life of a mother" [Source]
Ectopic pregnancy is defined as:
"An ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy that occurs outside the womb (uterus). It is a life-threatening condition to the mother. The baby (fetus) cannot survive."
The NIH guidelines for ectopic pregnancy state:
"Ectopic pregnancies is a life-threatening condition. The pregnancy cannot continue to birth (term). The developing cells must be removed to save the mother's life."
[Source]
4.Voting record
"He asserts that the Irish people voted to introduce abortion in 1992 and 2002, when, in fact, both those referenda - and subsequent opinion polls - show that the majority of people oppose legalising abortion.'"
Twelfth Amendment to the Constitution 1992
Proposed text:
"It shall be unlawful to terminate the life of an unborn unless such termination is necessary to save the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother where there is an illness or disorder of the mother giving rise to a real and substantial risk to her life, not being a risk of self-destruction."
Results:
For (Pro-Life): 572,177 (34.65%)
Against (Pro-Choice): 1,079,297 (65.35%)
Twenty-Fifth Amendment to the Constitution 2002
Proposed text:- Article 40.3.4:
- Article 40.3.5:
- Defined abortion as the destruction of unborn life after implantation in the womb.
- Permitted abortion where necessary to prevent loss of life other than by suicide.
- Reiterated that the right to freedom of travel is not affected by the ban on abortion.
- Made an unlawful abortion an offence punishable by up to twelve years in prison.
Results:
For: 618,485 (49.58%)
No: 629,041 (50.42%)
As if the misinformation above wasn't evidence enough of an underhand campaign on the part of YD, there is the fact that YD are lobbying everyone they can to subvert the constitution of the country. In particular:
Attorney General vs. X
The Supreme Court through legal precedent has established the right to abortion on the grounds of suicide, something that the Irish public has voted twice to protect in referenda. The weight of public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of legalised abortion (at least in this situation). Yet YD seeks to subvert both the will of the people and the constitution through misinformation and emotive lobbying. If that's not cheating I don't know what is.
Stealing
The one thing you have to give YD credit for is visibility. They are very good at making their misinformation visible to as many people as possible. However, you have to wonder where they get all those nice billboard images:
Oh, wait it's from Stock Photo:
And then there's this:
Not only is this misleading but it's also a direct violation of iStockphoto's Terms of Use:
use or display any Content that features a model or person in a manner (a) that would lead a reasonable person to think that such person uses or personally endorses any business, product, service, cause, association or other endeavour; or (b) except where accompanied by a statement that indicates that the Content is being used for illustrative purposes only and any person depicted in the Content is a model, that depicts such person in a potentially sensitive subject matter, including, but not limited to mental and physical health issues, social issues, sexual or implied sexual activity or preferences, substance abuse, crime, physical or mental abuse or ailments, or any other subject matter that would be reasonably likely to be offensive or unflattering to any person reflected in the Content, unless the Content itself clearly and undisputedly reflects the model or person in such potentially sensitive subject matter in which case the Content may be used or displayed in a manner that portrays the model or person in the same context and to the same degree depicted in the Content itself
More examples and analysis here.
And that's just the despicable activities of YD, in relation to abortion. That doesn't even begin to cover the other stuff they've gotten into which NotForResale summarised here.
So, once again: Do you support the actions of Youth Defence in the campagin against abortion?
Clarification accepted.
I very much agree with abortion being the Holocaust of our time...:(0 -
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