Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats the abortion argument right there - misery and regret..Pregnancy doesnt always have to be regretful,you are bringing a life into the world,you have a child,you are not going to grow old alone,you will have a child with you that will look after you in your old age..This is over looked by the abortion crowd..

So it should be. One should not have a child in order to provide oneself with a future carer.

Sin City

doctoremma wrote: »

M'eh, it fits with my innate laziness

Touche

doctoremma wrote: »

Hmm, not sure I agree. How do we know babies don't make conscious actions - maybe they just lack the ability to execute them well enough for us to recognise them as such?

Going by all the studies and research of child development they do not make conscious decesions and most actions are just reactions

doctoremma wrote: »

I agree and it's a slight sticking point for a threshold defined at the perception of pain. If it's not meaningful pain i.e. with no psychological element, does it matter?

Good point but to rhetorical

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats the abortion argument right there - misery and regret..Pregnancy doesnt always have to be regretful,you are bringing a life into the world,you have a child,you are not going to grow old alone,you will have a child with you that will look after you in your old age..This is over looked by the abortion crowd..

And what if that pregnancy was the only chance you had of growing up and getting a job and getting on with life?

Pregnancy is not always a negative thing.Lots of women go through it,and come out the other side with the best of care.

Abortion after care is not existant,there are so many pit falls to having an abortion,not to mention the pain factor of such an invasive procedure,the risk of infection and future miscarraiges..

You said in an earlier post your friend has no regrets so if she is happy and feels she did the right thing why can't you just accept it and be glad she is okay?

robindch

doctoremma wrote: »

One should not have a child in order to provide oneself with a future carer.

I knew one woman, now dead, who believed that she was conceived purely to look after her parents in their old age. And she did it too, even into her late sixties when I first knew her, when was still looking after her one remaining parent, her demanding mother, in the upstairs room. The mother died in her mid 90's, and my friend died in her mid-seventies a few years later.

It wasn't much of a life, in all fairness, and I've no idea why she went along with it.

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

.
Abortion after care is not existant,there are so many pit falls to having an abortion,not to mention the pain factor of such an invasive procedure,the risk of infection and future miscarraiges..

Here it is again... I keep asking you (on this thread and several times on another the provide evidance that abortion can cause future miscarraiges, and you have still not,
I have posted the two links to actual factual research that refute this claim and yet you continue to say it...

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2937238

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2225607


Web definitions:(scaremonger) a person who spreads frightening rumors

christmas2012

You said in an earlier post your friend has no regrets so if she is happy and feels she did the right thing why can't you just accept it and be glad she is okay?

She has no regrets she says,but she is still traumatised by the horribly invasive procedure..

old hippy

robindch wrote: »

I knew one woman, now dead, who believed that she was conceived purely to look after her parents in their old age. And she did it too, even into her late sixties when I first knew her, when was still looking after her demanding mother in the upstairs room. The mother died in her mid 90's, and my friend died in her mid-seventies a few years later.

It wasn't much of a life, in all fairness, and I've no idea why she went along with it.

How awful Perhaps her parents were so overbearing that she became a "prisoner" of sorts - maybe there were self esteem issues?

I've known people with extraordinarily overbearing, interfering parents & none of them are exactly what I'd call happy

Ickle Magoo

As always, this is a really interesting discussion - if not tinged with sadness that it's a discussion that was already democratically voted on decades ago which successions of politicians have ignored.

For me, the abortion debate boils down to the greater of two evils (I appreciate the irony in that turn of phrase, particularly in this forum ) - which is more wrong, abortion or enforced pregnancy? Do the rights of a potential person supersede the rights of an actual person? Does having the luxury due to a fluke of proximity enabling you to ship the issue off to your nearest neighbour really equal moral supremacy?

christmas2012 wrote: »

Oldhippy peoples ears prick up and they start to get defensive and jump on the abortion bandwagon when the realise there is a few people out there WHO DO KNOW ABOUT ABORTION,and do not go out of their way to idealise it,and know its NOT a positive experience,how could anybody say a horribly invasive procedure is a good experience?

Surely that goes both ways? Those who are anti-choice and pro-adoption seem to gloss over the conditions (some life-long), results and pain many experience in pregnancy and child-birth...making repetitive rabid statements about pain during abortion seems a rather odd line of argument for someone who is trying to make birth seem the more attractive option.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

While that's the case where the male may wish to keep the child and the female doesn't. But if you reverse the situation and the father doesn't want it.
Is it equitable and fair for a woman to insist they have to take responsibility for this for the coming 18+ years, incurring a significant financial and emotional burden ?

Ironically, I suspect you can also thank those who were [are?] anti-choice for fathers being obliged to support children they categorically did not/do not want - driven by a fear that doing anything else would result in a higher number of pregnancies unwanted or untenable by both parties.

christmas2012

Tipsy i have noticed ,since i started on this abortion thread,with the not so palatable truth,ears have pricked up and people have jumped to the defense of abortion..What if i told you abortion clinics were set up to be cost effective and they really didnt give a **** about your aftercare?Would you also agressively argue with me and call me a liar over that too?

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

She has no regrets she says,but she is still traumatised by the horribly invasive procedure..

So why don't you encourage here to get help? There are support groups out there she can get in contact with that can help her move forward.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

She has no regrets she says,but she is still traumatised by the horribly invasive procedure..

Most surgery is invasive. As for "horrible", that's subjective. I had a camera up my bum to check out my colon. Now, I'm aware the camera loves me but that wasn't the nicest of experiences and I still cringe when I think about it...

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Tipsy i have noticed ,since i started on this abortion thread,with the not so palatable truth,ears have pricked up and people have jumped to the defense of abortion..What if i told you abortion clinics were set up to be cost effective and they really didnt give a **** about your aftercare?Would you also agressively argue with me and call me a liar over that too?

Your version of the truth doesn't tally with the majority here, have you noticed that, as well?

christmas2012

making repetitive rabid statements about pain during abortion seems a rather odd line of argument for someone who is trying to make birth seem the more attractive option.

There not rabit statements,invasive procedures do have a lot of pain involved.Im not trying to make either seem more attractive,but what if i told you you get more after care with birth or casarean than you do abortion?Would you call me a liar too?(like tipsygypsy had)..

Bannasidhe

A number of years ago my son's ex-girlfriend got in touch to tell him she was pregnant. She was 18 he was 21. Neither of them had jobs, she lived with her father and had a difficult home life (a family that regularly calls the guards on each other with members who have been charged with assault on other members numerous times). He was sharing a house with some other lads - (one of those places where the floor seemed to be made of empty pizza boxes and overflowing ashtrays formed the main decorative feature)

When he told me I asked what she intended to do. He didn't know. He was in complete shock (and a bit worried that I would go 'spare') - their contraception has failed.

They were not together, neither of them had a cent to their names, neither lived in conditions suitable for a baby and both of them were little more than babies themselves. To say they were immature would be an understatement.

My son and I talked long into the night and he and I were of the same view:
that if she was considering an abortion that we would, if she was willing, be more than happy to raise the child. If necessary, for whatever reason, I would legally adopt the child.

As it turns out, she decided to keep the child and I now have a 6 year old granddaughter who is, and has been since the moment I held her in her first hour of life, the light of my life but all along I realised it wasn't my decision. It wasn't my body and I could not force anyone to have a child if they didn't want to. No matter how much I wanted to meet that child.

My son was very clear that was his view too - the decision to end or continue with the pregnancy was hers - it was her body. They were not pregnant - she was.

We wanted this child, between us we would love and care for it - but neither of us believed for a second that if his ex-partner really wanted to end the pregnancy we had any right to force her to continue with it - all we could do was offer to raise the child as an alternative to abortion.

I suppose my granddaughter was 'lucky' - she was born into an extended family (we have 5 generations living in Cork -oldest is 93 and he adores his great-great grandniece!) that cherishes her, sees no stigma to being 'illegitimate' and had the financial resources to provide a 'cushion' to help her get the best possible start in life. Would that all children were so lucky.

I should add that my son is still trying to get the legalities sorted out while also making his maintenance payments every week. He gets to see his kids (they got together for the sake of his daughter and now have a son as well but his ex-partner ended the relationship when his son was just over a year old) from Fri evening to Sun evening twice a month - this involves a drive of over 400 km every second weekend.

He can just afford to pay maintenance and petrol (and clothes, school books etc etc) because he lives with me and is fortunate to have a job, but he has to work on Fridays and Saturdays when we have the kids so really he sees them Fri night, Sat night and Sunday mornings twice a month. My OH and I do the Friday drive to collect them, OH and son (he can't drive or afford the mandatory 12 lessons) do the Sunday drive. So I do know how, unmarried fathers in particular, get the ****ty end of the stick in Ireland and I do believe father's like my son should have equitable rights with the mother once the children are born.

I suppose I am one of those 'anti-abortion' but pro-choice people. I wish no woman ever felt the need to end a pregnancy, but I recognise that some do and it is not for me to dictate to them. At the end of the day, I absolutely believe every women should have the right to determine her own future and her right to ownership of her own body trumps all other considerations and that as a civilised society we have a duty to ensure that when women have made this difficult choice that their lives are not also placed at risk.

I do wish that many of those on the anti-abortion side (I am not, I hasten to add, saying this as a dig at any poster here!) put as much energy into ensuring the welfare of the children who are already here as they put into protecting the 'potential' ones.

In this country we have an appalling record when it comes to protecting vulnerable children, from Industrial schools to the HSE being unable to supply figures for how many have died while in State 'care' our track record is abysmal. Yet, where is the debate and the thread on that? Where is the outrage???? Where is the every life is sacred so lets protect every child in the country from poverty, abuse, homelessness well funded lobby?

Where are the religious leaders lobbying to protect vulnerable children? Silent in the face of the fact that it was religious organisations who for so many years were the main abusers of vulnerable children. :mad:

It's all very well and good to want to protect the unborn but what about the already born - should we not be working to ensure that each one of those has a fair shot at reaching their potential? As a society we have utterly failed to do that. Let's sort that out first.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

There not rabit statements,invasive procedures do have a lot of pain involved.Im not trying to make either seem more attractive,but what if i told you you get more after care with birth or casarean than you do abortion?Would you call me a liar too?(like tipsygypsy had)..

Here we go again. I think you know the answer.

christmas2012

Your version of the truth doesn't tally with the majority here, have you noticed that, as well?

I noticed the majority are pro abortion ,so of course they are going to accuse me of being a liar,im not pro or against abortion per se,but i do believe informing youself is the best situation to be in BEFORE making a decision,and i have witnessed what abortion can do to a young womans life,it can turn it upside down,the pain of the procedure,the fact you only get one stingy paracetemol afterwards..I think its relevent,you mightnt like it as it doesnt sit comfortably with your pro abortion world view..

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

There not rabit statements,invasive procedures do have a lot of pain involved.Im not trying to make either seem more attractive,but what if i told you you get more after care with birth or casarean than you do abortion?Would you call me a liar too?(like tipsygypsy had)..

Of course you do, giving birth is facilitated by the state, abortion is not.

Ickle Magoo

christmas2012 wrote: »

There not rabit statements,invasive procedures do have a lot of pain involved.Im not trying to make either seem more attractive,but what if i told you you get more after care with birth or casarean than you do abortion?Would you call me a liar too?(like tipsygypsy had)..

I'd say it's an excellent reason to ensure abortion is legalised and legislated...

I wouldn't call you a liar - but I would suggest making lazy sweeping generalisations based on a single anecdote really doesn't do your cause any good whatsoever. It would be more accurate - and I suspect your arguments would look less irrational and emotively driven if you were entirely honest. Invasive procedures CAN have a lot of pain involved - I've had two emergency sections, one was agony and I couldn't move for weeks, the other I was up and home after 24 hrs...even to the same person, pain and procedures differ. It makes no sense whatsoever to ascribe a single result to all.

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

I noticed the majority are pro abortion ,so of course they are going to accuse me of being a liar,im not pro or against abortion per se,but i do believe informing youself is the best situation to be in BEFORE making a decision,and i have witnessed what abortion can do to a young womans life,it can turn it upside down,the pain of the procedure,the fact you only get one stingy paracetemol afterwards..I think its relevent,you mightnt like it as it doesnt sit comfortably with your pro abortion world view..

Was it you who had the abortion by any chance?

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

I noticed the majority are pro abortion ,so of course they are going to accuse me of being a liar,im not pro or against abortion per se,but i do believe informing youself is the best situation to be in BEFORE making a decision,and i have witnessed what abortion can do to a young womans life,it can turn it upside down,the pain of the procedure,the fact you only get one stingy paracetemol afterwards..I think its relevent,you mightnt like it as it doesnt sit comfortably with your pro abortion world view..

Your facts don't support the majority of experiences here. I call you out as a promoter of mistruths and scaremongering.

A cursory glance at many of the threads you contibute to confirms this.

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Tipsy i have noticed ,since i started on this abortion thread,with the not so palatable truth,ears have pricked up and people have jumped to the defense of abortion..What if i told you abortion clinics were set up to be cost effective and they really didnt give a **** about your aftercare?Would you also agressively argue with me and call me a liar over that too?

I have been neither aggresive nor have I ever called you a liar, I've used the word scaremongerer. Because I think you genuinely believe what you are saying. Even though a lot of what you say is factually incorrect. Im not, by the way refering to the storey of your friend. Im refering to some of the other claims you've made, ie that abortion can lead to future miscarriage. I've addressed this repeatedly with you and you have never once backed it up. I am certain that you wholeheartedly believe what you are saying, and that, in turn, someone has told you some very inaccurate information. I am merely trying to help you to see what the actual facts of hte situation are. And I have done so with respect.
As to abortion clinics being cost effective (of course they are, they cant run themselves on fresh air) and that they dont give a *** about aftercare (very hard for them to give you proper aftercare when you are in a differant country)... To that I say, well lets make sure we do it right here, so that Irish women have a safe place to have this procedure done so that we can be certain that Irish womens best interests are at the heart of the whole thing. Lets stop women travelling to England and make sure that they are taken care of, properly, on their own soil.

By the way, you can be sure of one thing, I wont post information here unless I can back it up.

christmas2012

eviltwin wrote: »

Was it you who had the abortion by any chance?

No a good friend of mine had the abortion,she told me what she rememeberd of the horrific procedure,the pain aftewards,she was crying and said she felt like she had physically been gutted,i was there and she only got ONE paracetemol tablet.

These clinics from what i have witnessed/seen are big on cost effecitveness and talked her into concious sedation a big , big mistake she made also..

To tipsygypsy;

Im refering to some of the other claims you've made, ie that abortion can lead to future miscarriage

If infection sets in YES it can lead to miscarriage - are you also going to call me a liar on that too??You will do a great discredit to yourself,no matter how much you believe abortion is the right way to go ,it doesnt mean you get to call others liars if they know about risk of infection etc..

oldrnwisr

christmas2012 wrote: »

Im not against abortion,but abortion for all is a huge mistake,arguing whether abortion is a good idea,can also be heartbreak for some,living with the trauma of abortion - the physical procedure itself and the psychological after effects is not something one can live with easily.To a lot of women abortion may seem like purely an academic debate,just a word,but its a lot more than that.Some women go on to miscarry,there is risk of infection,you only get one paracetemol tablet after the procedure and youre on your way back to ireland.They for the most part use concious sedation and will talk you into it,which can leave a girl with terrible memories as it does not block out all the memories..

Abortion is something that is physically invasive,and traumatic,so before reducing it to academic debate think about the human impact,the human factor of what women go through.

You may not be against abortion as you claim but you keep making bad arguments against it unsupported by evidence and contradicted by personal experience in this thread.

There are no significant detrimental psychological effects associated with abortion.

The study below examined the incidence rates of psychiatric contact before and after a first time first-trimester abortion and compared it with the rates before and after a first childbirth.

Induced First-Trimester Abortion and Risk of Mental Disorder

The results show that the before and after rates for induced abortion are 14.6 and 15.2 respectively. However since the 95% C.I. of both results overlapped, it is not safe to conclude that there is any increased risk of mental disorder following abortion.
Live birth on the other hand lead to a significant increased risk of mental disorder with incidence rates climbing from 3.9 to 6.7. This is a not unsurprising conclusion as post-partum depression is a reasonably common occurrence.

As for the physical effects of abortion, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Apart from pain and infection which are dealt with routinely by clinics, there are no significant traumatic consequences to abortion. It is one of the safest medical procedures available with a death rate approximately 1800 times smaller than the average death rate for general surgical procedures.

Oh, and about the general risks of abortion.

The RCOG (Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists) has since at least 2000, recommended prophylactic antibiotics and courses of painkillers (paracetamol is not recommended) in their guidelines on post-abortion care. Patient care is at the forefront of their concerns.

The Care of Women requesting Induced Abortion

Infection

"Women should be informed that infection of varying degrees of severity may occur after medical or surgical abortion and is usually caused by pre-existing infection. Prophylactic antibiotic use and bacterial screening for lower genital tract infection reduces this risk."

"Services should offer antibiotic prophylaxis effective against Chlamydia trachomatis and anaerobes for both surgical abortion (evidence grade: A) and medical abortion (evidence grade: C)."


Pain relief

"Women should routinely be offered pain relief such as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) during surgical abortion."

"Prophylactic paracetamol (oral or rectal) is ineffective in reducing pain after surgical abortion and is not recommended."


Finally on the matter of conscious sedation, the research has shown that while pain and dizziness/drowsiness scores are both higher for conscious sedation, patient satisfaction scores are also higher for conscious sedation indicating that whatever minimal trauma that there might be, it is certainly not added to by using conscious sedation.

A randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled study to investigate the use of conscious sedation in conjunction with paracervical block for reducing pain in termination of first trimester pregnancy by suction evacuation


Electing to have an abortion can be and in many cases is a difficult decision. However the medical profession have responded to this by being proactive and ensuring that women undergoing this procedure have the best level of care possible and that any negative effects are reduced to the point of elimination.

There are arguments to be made against abortion but this logically fallacious appeal to consequences isn't one of them. Your argument is not supported by evidence or the preponderence of personal experience so as passionately as you may feel about the issue your remarks are unhelpful.

christmas2012

As for the physical effects of abortion, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Apart from pain and infection which are dealt with routinely by clinics

She got no abortion aftercare,she had to get the plane back home,when she was at home she realised she had an infection,and if it had set it it could cause future miscarraiges and render her infertile if it continued..If it doesnt sit well with your pro abortion arguement i dont care.

She then went to a GP in her local vicinity,it was awkward for her,there was a huge queue,she had to wait,then when she got to the chemist they didnt have that particular antibiotic stocked,they had to order it,and she had to wait a couple of days - with the infection setting in.

"Women should routinely be offered pain relief such as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) during surgical abortion.

Do you know what NSAIDs are?They are paracetemol tablets..And i can attest to the fact...They dont work..

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

No a good friend of mine had the abortion,she told me what she rememeberd of the horrific procedure,the pain aftewards,she was crying and said she felt like she had physically been gutted,i was there and she only got ONE paracetemol tablet.

These clinics from what i have witnessed/seen are big on cost effecitveness and talked her into concious sedation a big , big mistake she made also..

To tipsygypsy;



If infection sets in YES it can lead to miscarriage - are you also going to call me a liar on that too??You will do a great discredit to yourself,no matter how much you believe abortion is the right way to go ,it doesnt mean you get to call others liars if they know about risk of infection etc..

Thats the whole point of a six week check up. Infection can be caused by tissue left behind, the same thing can happen during childbirth or a miscarriage so its really important any woman who has been pregnant gets that check up.

28064212

christmas2012 wrote: »

She got no abortion aftercare,she had to get the plane back home,when she was at home she realised she had an infection,and if it had set it it could cause future miscarraiges and render her infertile if it continued..If it doesnt sit well with your pro abortion arguement i dont care.

And a woman who carries a pregnancy to full term can also get an infection, which could cause future miscarriages and render her infertile.

Abortion does not make miscarriages or infertility more likely. This is a fact, and you have been shown evidence to support that. Yet you still continue to make your false claims

UDP

christmas2012 wrote: »

She got no abortion aftercare,she had to get the plane back home,when she was at home she realised she had an infection,and if it had set it it could cause future miscarraiges and render her infertile if it continued..If it doesnt sit well with your pro abortion arguement i dont care.

She then went to a GP in her local vicinity,it was awkward for her,there was a huge queue,she had to wait,then when she got to the chemist they didnt have that particular antibiotic stocked,they had to order it,and she had to wait a couple of days - with the infection setting in.

Then how come you are not in favour of having abortion clinics in Ireland so that she could have had check-ups sooner and in the same clinic she had the abortion? It would have greatly helped your friend in this case I would imagine.

christmas2012

Abortion does not make miscarriages or infertility more likely

how naive is that statement of course if you put yourself at risk of infection,it makes it more likely.

Sin City

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A number of years ago my son's ex-girlfriend got in touch to tell him she was pregnant. She was 18 he was 21. Neither of them had jobs, she lived with her father and had a difficult home life (a family that regularly calls the guards on each other with members who have been charged with assault on other members numerous times). He was sharing a house with some other lads - (one of those places where the floor seemed to be made of empty pizza boxes and overflowing ashtrays formed the main decorative feature)

When he told me I asked what she intended to do. He didn't know. He was in complete shock (and a bit worried that I would go 'spare') - their contraception has failed.

They were not together, neither of them had a cent to their names, neither lived in conditions suitable for a baby and both of them were little more than babies themselves. To say they were immature would be an understatement.

My son and I talked long into the night and he and I were of the same view:
that if she was considering an abortion that we would, if she was willing, be more than happy to raise the child. If necessary, for whatever reason, I would legally adopt the child.

As it turns out, she decided to keep the child and I now have a 6 year old granddaughter who is, and has been since the moment I held her in her first hour of life, the light of my life but all along I realised it wasn't my decision. It wasn't my body and I could not force anyone to have a child if they didn't want to. No matter how much I wanted to meet that child.

My son was very clear that was his view too - the decision to end or continue with the pregnancy was hers - it was her body. They were not pregnant - she was.

We wanted this child, between us we would love and care for it - but neither of us believed for a second that if his ex-partner really wanted to end the pregnancy we had any right to force her to continue with it - all we could do was offer to raise the child as an alternative to abortion.

I suppose my granddaughter was 'lucky' - she was born into an extended family (we have 5 generations living in Cork -oldest is 93 and he adores his great-great grandniece!) that cherishes her, sees no stigma to being 'illegitimate' and had the financial resources to provide a 'cushion' to help her get the best possible start in life. Would that all children were so lucky.

I should add that my son is still trying to get the legalities sorted out while also making his maintenance payments every week. He gets to see his kids (they got together for the sake of his daughter and now have a son as well but his ex-partner ended the relationship when his son was just over a year old) from Fri evening to Sun evening twice a month - this involves a drive of over 400 km every second weekend.

He can just afford to pay maintenance and petrol (and clothes, school books etc etc) because he lives with me and is fortunate to have a job, but he has to work on Fridays and Saturdays when we have the kids so really he sees them Fri night, Sat night and Sunday mornings twice a month. My OH and I do the Friday drive to collect them, OH and son (he can't drive or afford the mandatory 12 lessons) do the Sunday drive. So I do know how, unmarried fathers in particular, get the ****ty end of the stick in Ireland and I do believe father's like my son should have equitable rights with the mother once the children are born.

I suppose I am one of those 'anti-abortion' but pro-choice people. I wish no woman ever felt the need to end a pregnancy, but I recognise that some do and it is not for me to dictate to them. At the end of the day, I absolutely believe every women should have the right to determine her own future and her right to ownership of her own body trumps all other considerations and that as a civilised society we have a duty to ensure that when women have made this difficult choice that their lives are not also placed at risk.

I do wish that many of those on the anti-abortion side (I am not, I hasten to add, saying this as a dig at any poster here!) put as much energy into ensuring the welfare of the children who are already here as they put into protecting the 'potential' ones.

In this country we have an appalling record when it comes to protecting vulnerable children, from Industrial schools to the HSE being unable to supply figures for how many have died while in State 'care' our track record is abysmal. Yet, where is the debate and the thread on that? Where is the outrage???? Where is the every life is sacred so lets protect every child in the country from poverty, abuse, homelessness well funded lobby?

Where are the religious leaders lobbying to protect vulnerable children? Silent in the face of the fact that it was religious organisations who for so many years were the main abusers of vulnerable children. :mad:

It's all very well and good to want to protect the unborn but what about the already born - should we not be working to ensure that each one of those has a fair shot at reaching their potential? As a society we have utterly failed to do that. Let's sort that out first.

Im glad you got to see and hold your granddaugher and that she is doing well

As for the comment about looking after the children that are already here, that has never come up and probably belongs to a different thread on its own. Yes it does need urgent attention too. This country is riddles with tradgides from industrial schools

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

To tipsygypsy;


If infection sets in YES it can lead to miscarriage - are you also going to call me a liar on that too??You will do a great discredit to yourself,no matter how much you believe abortion is the right way to go ,it doesnt mean you get to call others liars if they know about risk of infection etc..

Again, Ive never called you a liar, Ive asked you to back up your claims with evidence and you have failed to do so... this is not the same thing as calling you a liar.