Abortion/ Note Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Nodin · 15-02-2013 2:47pm

aloyisious wrote: »

..........(snip)........

JOHN BRUTON is a former taoiseach

....who seems to be using a minority opinion to argue his case that the law/constitution should be read as he thinks it should be, rather than deal with the reality that the law/constitution is what the Supreme court says it is.

OldNotWIse · 15-02-2013 2:55pm

Dades wrote: »

The problem with the above is that some of the terms such as "risk, unviable, severely handicapped" are themselves completely open to interpretation.

An attempt to define them would have to be made first and even then there would be never be agreement.

The likelihood is that it would be left to a panel of medical professionals to decide on a case by case basis.

The likelihood is also that abortion will never be introduced for such circumstances, given that the X case judgment does not require legislating for instances of foetal abnormalities or rape victims. Any legislation providing abortions for such situations will be struck down as being unconstitutional, indeed as would any purporting to protect the womans health, as it was endangered life that was referred to in the judgment.

I class myself as pro life but when it comes to foetal abnormalities I am not really sure where I stand. I certainly dont accept eugenics, or the idea of aborting something that is less than perfect but in cases where the baby will die (and likely suffer) I think there should be measures in place. I posted here before a very sad story about a friend of a friend who had to travel for an abortion when she found out her unborn baby had a multitude of deformities, missing organs etc and she had to sneak the body back home in the boot of the car to give her a proper goodbye. Was her anguish not enough already losing her child without compounding it by making her feel and act like a criminal?

eyescreamcone · 15-02-2013 3:15pm

Dades wrote: »

The problem with the above is that some of the terms such as "risk, unviable, severely handicapped" are themselves completely open to interpretation.

An attempt to define them would have to be made first and even then there would be never be agreement.

Doctors have to interpret risk to the life of the pregnant woman at the moment.

Doctors are are able to tell from scans whether a foetus is unviable or likely to be born handicapped.
The mother should then be able to use this information to make a choice.

(This is happening all the time anyway!!! except that the abortions then happen in the UK)

Dades · 15-02-2013 4:04pm

I think my first thoughts with the above would be the inevitable Godwinning that would happen as soon as someone mentions "handicapped" or "DS".

It's open to all sorts of hysteria, some of it making for the worst tabloid headlines.

eyescreamcone · 15-02-2013 4:16pm

In the real world foetus' often turn out disabled, handicaped or DS.
Why shouldn't we talk about it??

Hard to know where to draw the line??
However, many countries have no problem and just give the pregnant woman the information and let her decide.

If that's too icky for anyone then continue to close your eyes to reality (it's happening already though!)

lazygal · 15-02-2013 4:31pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

In the real world foetus' often turn out disabled, handicaped or DS.
Why shouldn't we talk about it??

Hard to know where to draw the line??
However, many countries have no problem and just give the pregnant woman the information and let her decide.

If that's too icky for anyone then continue to close your eyes to reality (it's happening already though!)

There's not exactly a queue to adopt seriously or even mildly disabled children, plus with one child already I'd be considering the impact of a child with a disability on our other children. In Canada the decision is between the woman and her doctor, like any medical issue should be.
I can honestly say there are circumstances in which an abortion would be a very easy decision for me, and not the heartrending choice some people like to paint.

Delirium · 15-02-2013 4:33pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

In the real world foetus' often turn out disabled, handicaped or DS.
Why shouldn't we talk about it??

Hard to know where to draw the line??
However, many countries have no problem and just give the pregnant woman the information and let her decide.

If that's too icky for anyone then continue to close your eyes to reality (it's happening already though!)

The problem with discussing the above is that there are people who will basically say/imply that every foetus that falls under that umbrella will be aborted.

Lingua Franca · 15-02-2013 4:38pm

Indeed, although those tend to be the same people who say that everyone except the feminazis is against abortion but if abortion is introduced the floodgates will open and all these women who are against abortion will be queuing round the corners to have them.

Silvio.Dante · 15-02-2013 4:49pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

In the real world foetus' often turn out disabled, handicaped or DS.
Why shouldn't we talk about it??

Hard to know where to draw the line??
However, many countries have no problem and just give the pregnant woman the information and let her decide.

If that's too icky for anyone then continue to close your eyes to reality (it's happening already though!)

So you would be happy to allow Downs Syndrome pregnancies be aborted..?

lazygal · 15-02-2013 4:54pm

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you would be happy to allow Downs Syndrome pregnancies be aborted..?

Would you be happy to care for a disabled child for the rest of your life? Would you adopt a disabled child?

Sarky · 15-02-2013 4:58pm

koth wrote: »

The problem with discussing the above is that there are people who will basically say/imply that every foetus that falls under that umbrella will be aborted.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Indeed, although those tend to be the same people who say that everyone except the feminazis is against abortion but if abortion is introduced the floodgates will open and all these women who are against abortion will be queuing round the corners to have them.

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you would be happy to allow Downs Syndrome pregnancies be aborted..?

This isn't even funny any more. Go home, Silvio, you're too predictable.

Dades · 15-02-2013 4:58pm

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you would be happy to allow Downs Syndrome pregnancies be aborted..?

The wording of that question is misleading.

The word "happy" doesn't come into abortion. The question should be do you think women should be allowed come to their own decision regarding the termination of a foetus known to have DS.

This isn't a question about whether DS babies SHOULD be aborted, but whether one believes a woman should have to choice to do so.

swampgas · 15-02-2013 4:59pm

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you would be happy to allow Downs Syndrome pregnancies be aborted..?

"Happy" is absolutely the wrong word to use. But if my wife and I were unfortunate enough to discover that she was carrying a Down's Syndrome baby, we would choose to abort. It would be a sad decision, but we both know it's the one we would make. If that makes me a monster in your eyes, so be it.

lazygal · 15-02-2013 5:04pm

http://www.insufferableintolerance.com/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion-joyce-arthur/

This website makes for interesting reading, highlighting the abortions antichoice activists avail of. In other words, they are the 'special cases' where the preshus tineeeeee baaaaaayyyyybeees arguments don't apply.

eyescreamcone · 15-02-2013 5:12pm

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you would be happy to allow Downs Syndrome pregnancies be aborted..?

Abortions are not "happy" ocassions.
I'm the wrong sex to have an abortion, however,
I think I would support my partner's decision to abort a DS foetus.

I would vote for this to be allowed in ROI

stanley 2 · 15-02-2013 5:15pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Abortions are not "happy" ocassions.
I'm the wrong sex to have an abortion, however,
I think I would support my partner's decision to abort a DS foetus.

I would vote for this to be allowed in ROI

what if the babby was the wrong colour

lazygal · 15-02-2013 5:17pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

what if the babby was the wrong colour

What's a babby? What's the 'wrong' colour?

stanley 2 · 15-02-2013 5:22pm

lazygal wrote: »

What's a babby? What's the 'wrong' colour?

its like not just perfect maybe a little handicapped

lazygal · 15-02-2013 5:23pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

its like not just perfect maybe a little handicapped

What has disability got to do with race? What's the 'wrong' colour, exactly?

stanley 2 · 15-02-2013 5:24pm

lazygal wrote: »

What has disability got to do with race? What's the 'wrong' colour, exactly?

ok lets say the wrong sex if you go to britain you can get an abortion if your child is the wrong sex

oldrnwisr · 15-02-2013 5:30pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

ok lets say the wrong sex if you go to britain you can get an abortion if your child is the wrong sex

No, you can't. Not legally anyway.

eviltwin · 15-02-2013 5:30pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

ok lets say the wrong sex if you go to britain you can get an abortion if your child is the wrong sex

That's illegal. It has happened but its not something that is allowed under the UK abortion laws.

lazygal · 15-02-2013 5:30pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

ok lets say the wrong sex if you go to britain you can get an abortion if your child is the wrong sex

No you can't. There are certain cases where gender selective abortions are carried out and the practice is illegal and condemned by most medical professionals.

Let's focus on your original question. What's the wrong colour.

stanley 2 · 15-02-2013 5:33pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I don't know if you can tell that before birth

Even so, that would come in to the 'abortion on demand' section

The on demand section doesn't require any other reason than the pregnant woman does not want to give birth.

With 7 billion humans on the planet we should as a species ensure that every additional newborn is wanted by it's parents.

that wont give the girl babbys a fair chance but thats pro choice

eviltwin · 15-02-2013 5:33pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

that wont give the girl babbys a fair chance but thats pro choice

Who are "they"?

lazygal · 15-02-2013 5:34pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

that wont give the girl babbys a fair chance but thats pro choice

What, exactly, is a 'babby'? Why have you moved from referring to 'babbys' being the 'wrong' colour to gender selective abortion, which is illegal in the UK?

stanley 2 · 15-02-2013 5:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

No you can't. There are certain cases where gender selective abortions are carried out and the practice is illegal and condemned by most medical professionals.

Let's focus on your original question. What's the wrong colour.

if it is illeagl why has no body been prosecuted ( O it was only girl babbys )

eviltwin · 15-02-2013 5:37pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

if it is illeagl why has no body been prosecuted ( O it was only girl babbys )

Is there a point to any of this?

lazygal · 15-02-2013 5:38pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

if it is illeagl why has no body been prosecuted ( O it was only girl babbys )

I don't know, as I don't work for the prosecution service or DPP in the UK. Can you clarify what the 'wrong' colour is and why you moved from referring to race to gender selective abortion in the UK? And also, what is the 'wrong' colour? And the plural of baby is babies, but abortion is about foetuses, the use of the term 'baby' is incorrect.

Lingua Franca · 15-02-2013 5:40pm

stanley 2 wrote: »

its like not just perfect maybe a little handicapped

Race is a handicap?

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Abortion/ Note Thread Closing Shortly! ! !