Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

lazygal

AFAIK the interviews for the survey were done face to face which can skew results too, in terms of the people who are surveyed and their responses. Its not the most reliable method of getting unbiased responses.
But of course the pro life movement wouldn't possibly predetermine the outcome that suits its agenda.

PopePalpatine

I'm glad Silvio is banned, otherwise he'd be waving this around and shoving it down our throats.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

For reportage, I'd look at what findings and information about the survey process is being released, what kind of bias are the reporters bringing to the table (reporters told to report one angle will only talk about items relevant to that angle), and how the figures are reported (there may be a wider than normal 95% confidence width from the survey, meaning that the actual population support could be much lower/higher than reported).

All these issues are equally problematic no matter who is doing the survey and on what issue, so don't think I'm singling out any group here.

I'd agree. Folk might recall a Red C poll last December, where people gave somewhat contradictory answers with respect to the suicide issue.

http://redcresearch.ie/news/majority-look-for-abortion-legislation
The first position we put to the public was to legislate for the X case, in so doing we explained that this meant allowing for abortion where the mothers life is threatened, including by suicide. Legislation for the X case was resoundingly supported by almost all voters (85%) <...>

we asked if voters would support or not support a constitutional amendment to "limit" the X case; by excluding the threat of suicide, but allowing abortion where the mother’s life is threatened outside of suicide. Only 63% of voters supported this position<...>

If 85% are in favour of legislation that includes risk of suicide in its scope, and 63% are in favour of an amendment excluding risk of suicide from the scope, it strongly suggests at least 48% of people don't have a consistent position; the two positions can only be reconciled by pedantry.

How did Red C account for this result? With this rather peculiar "logic"

<...>Bearing in mind the much higher support for the X case itself, it is clear that voters do not want to limit it, and a further clear sign that voters prefer to see suicide remain as part of the legal position.<...>

We seriously let ourselves down with this kind of tortous denial, when we should simply be saying "Yeah, hard to reconcile those two positions. I'd guess a lot of people find the issues are just too difficult to know what to say."

doctoremma

So could it be reasonable to withhold gender information until the abortion limit is passed? Or is that tantamount to forcing an unwanted pregnancy?

Also, Jimi, in principle, I'd rather gender-selective abortions than an unwanted born girl being killed directly or via neglect (malnourishment, failure to vaccinate, etc). In my opinion, it's the better of two evils. Of course, the most appropriate course of action would be to remove endangered female from their families, but I suspect this unworkable in rural India/China.

aloyisious

Polls are dependent on the question-wording. Check out the "Yes Minister"series sketch about a poll on conscription.

kylith

What a shame that the Indo never has a comments section.

robindch

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm glad Silvio is banned, otherwise he'd be waving this around and shoving it down our throats.

Silvio's ban was lifted automatically two days ago, so (s)he's free to drop by and post his thoughts as and when they occur to him/her.

If, however, (s)he continues to troll and generally fail to communicate, then his/her next ban will be permanent.

28064212

robindch wrote: »

Silvio's ban was lifted automatically two days ago

Forum ban. The site-ban might make that a bit tricky

robindch

28064212 wrote: »

Forum ban. The site-ban might make that a bit tricky

It's Friday today, isn't it? I could never get the hang of Fridays.

TwoShedsJackson

28064212 wrote: »

Forum ban. The site-ban might make that a bit tricky

Yes he's on a month off but if the thread in Prison is anything to go by it seems he isn't bothered and will be off to politics.ie where they appreciate him, apparently.

Bannasidhe

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Yes he's on a month off but if the thread in Prison is anything to go by it seems he isn't bothered and will be off to politics.ie where they appreciate him, apparently.

Damn work making me miss everything!
*hops on a burger and gallops to prison*

a sentence I never thought I would write...

Dades

doctoremma wrote: »

So could it be reasonable to withhold gender information until the abortion limit is passed? Or is that tantamount to forcing an unwanted pregnancy?

I don't think it would ever be reasonable (or enforceable) to withhold such personal information from potential parents purely on the basis that some people may potentially use it to do something subjectively unethical.

Galvasean

koth wrote: »

A good analysis of the poll, and it's obvious flaws which cause problems for getting a good understanding of the data it collected.

Thanks for that. I had a feeling something fishy was afoot!

28064212 wrote: »

Forum ban. The site-ban might make that a bit tricky

Proof that A&A is lenient. Despite the constant whinging of oppression from certain posers (usually seagulls) it seems to give people much more chances than the site itself.

aloyisious

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Damn work making me miss everything!
*hops on a burger and gallops to prison*

a sentence I never thought I would write...

Quote of the year :*hops on a burger and gallops to prison*:D

robindch

Another religious preacher comments on medical science. Somewhat inaccurately.

http://jezebel.com/5984598/your-womb-is-full-of-tiny-dead-babies-says-pastor-who-certainly-understands-a-lot-about-medical-science

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei2appfg_xw

Morag

Heard about that earlier, complete and utter rubbish, he has no idea what menstruation is or how it works and has no citations or even names of those so called drs. Propaganda claptrap.

PopePalpatine

They were probably "doctors" in the same way Ian Paisley Sr is - i.e., they sent away a cheque in the post to a fundie university in the Deep South.

aloyisious

robindch wrote: »

Another religious preacher comments on medical science. Somewhat inaccurately.

http://jezebel.com/5984598/your-womb-is-full-of-tiny-dead-babies-says-pastor-who-certainly-understands-a-lot-about-medical-science

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei2appfg_xw

I want photos!

Bannasidhe

Some interesting points re: suicide clause by Fiona de Londras

Abstract:

The Irish government is currently drafting the first piece of legislation that would regulate the availability of abortion in Ireland. This follows both the 8th Amendment to the Constitution in 1983 (recognising equal rights to life of pregnant women and ‘the unborn’), the Supreme Court decision in Attorney General v X (confirming that there is a limited right to access abortion), and the European Court of Human Rights decision in A, B & C v Ireland (finding Ireland in violation of the ECHR for failing to clearly outline how that right can be accesssed). A major point of contention remains how, if at all, to regulate the availability of abortion in cases of suicidal ideation. This paper considers two mooted possibilities—to exclude suicide altogether or to carve out a particular scheme in the legislation for suicide alone—against both legal and practical considerations. Against both of these perspectives the paper argues that the exclusion of suicide and its separate treatment are both problematic; neither appears either mandated or required when measured by means of legal and practical considerations, although a pragmatic perspective may indicate that a separate scheme for suicidality would be introduced.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2223548#.USn8bJpfBr8.facebook

aloyisious

So the short interview of Dr Reilly the other day (when he was asked about the abortion bill issue) may be relevant, re the various heads of bill he mentioned (some 80 heads). I'm assuming that the suicide issue is amongst them, as a matter of pragmatism.

Morag

They can not legislate for X with out legislating for the risk to the life of the woman.

PopePalpatine

Irish Times opinion piece on abortion.

I don't think one of the commenters knows what "liberal democracy" actually means.

Bannasidhe

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Irish Times opinion piece on abortion.

I don't think one of the commenters knows what "liberal democracy" actually means.

Such as this gem of gobsmakingly stupid - who knew 'contraception, divorce, abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia' are being offered as part of Croke Park 2.0?

Yesterday, when people should have been going to mass and resting, instead of keeping holy the Sabbath day, the government were meeting with the unions in order to hammer out a deal where workers would have to work longer hours for less pay when costs are going up.
And in return they are being offered all the "goodies" that liberal democracy can offer .......... contraception, divorce, abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia .......... all things that people can use to exploit one another.
And if people can be made to accept exploitation of one another through sex, they can be made to accept exploitation by the rich and powerful for money.
The only thing standing in the way of all this at the moment is the Christian ideal of love of God and love of neighbour. That is why there is a war going on between liberal democracy and the Catholic Church for the Catholic Church stands for true human rights - to God, to the truth, to life, to a natural family and the right to own the means of making a living (a secure properly paid job these days).
Whereas liberal democracy stands for exploitation through a version of human rights based on an atheistic, competitive individualism the selfishness of the individual supersedes the common good and society at large.

Sarky

I hear the negotiations included getting "John Waters is a talentless hack" enshrined in the constitution. Is nothing sacred!?

PopePalpatine

Sarky wrote: »

I hear the negotiations included getting "John Waters is a talentless hack" enshrined in the constitution. Is nothing sacred!?

I'd support the referendum if it included a clause where this amendment is removed if he kicks the Pope up the arse. :pac:

GCU Flexible Demeanour

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Irish Times opinion piece on abortion.

If you leave aside the pitch for business (because its pretty clear that her subtext is "authorise RU486, and GPs will offer you an abortion service for much less than a grand a time"), I think she has an interesting question in wondering why the sizeable population of Irish women who've had abortions are not more visible in this campaign.

Morag

Stigma.

Plain and simple, I've been working with plenty of women side by side over the last 6 months in the run up to the launch of the campaign and very few of us are willing to be publicly open about having an abortion.

I am, I've mentioned it here, I've publicly spoken at meetings, I've been interviewed by a journalist, but it's the stigma and people knowing your business.

I've had baby murderer yelled at me for just saying I am pro choice, never mind that I have had an abortion. At least 150,000 irish women have had an abortion but most are still too scared of the 'christian' treatment they will get if they publicly disclose.

Some don't even disclose to their dr, or even to maternity hospitals when they are giving their medical history, I know of two women in the last year who did disclose and were told to keep it quiet.

Anti abortion groups have worked for years to keep abortion taboo and to shaming women into silence and that won't go away over night.

Bannasidhe

Morag wrote: »

Stigma.

Plain and simple, I've been working with plenty of women side by side over the last 6 months in the run up to the launch of the campaign and very few of us are willing to be publicly open about having an abortion.

I am, I've mentioned it here, I've publicly spoken at meetings, I've been interviewed by a journalist, but it's the stigma and people knowing your business.

I've had baby murderer yelled at me for just saying I am pro choice, never mind that I have had an abortion. At least 150,000 irish women have had an abortion but most are still too scared of the 'christian' treatment they will get if they publicly disclose.

Some don't even disclose to their dr, or even to maternity hospitals when they are giving their medical history, I know of two women in the last year who did disclose and were told to keep it quiet.

Anti abortion groups have worked for years to keep abortion taboo and to shaming women into silence and that won't go away over night.

Absolutely.

eviltwin

Ireland is a very unforgiving, lonely place to live if you are a woman who has had an abortion, particulary if you did so for "social" reasons. There are virtually no supports out there and if you know the people around you are firmly pro life its no wonder women and their partners won't discuss it. I wish more women would talk about it publically but you have to think of your own mental health and put that first.

Morag

I'd go as far as to say there are men who are married to and have children with women who had an abortion before they met and are utterly unaware of it.