Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Bannasidhe

Morag wrote: »

I'd go as far as to say there were men who are married to and have children with women who had an abortion before they met and are utterly unaware of it.

I know there are...

It is still difficult for people to come out as Gay in Ireland - and that is now broadly socially acceptable - equally saying one is an Atheist can be met with mixed reactions.

Admit to having an abortion and vocal condemnation and judgement is guaranteed as any who disagree feel they have the right to voice their opinion.

eviltwin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Admit to having an abortion and vocal condemnation and judgement is guaranteed as any who disagree feel they have the right to voice their opinion.

I wonder how much of that is percieved though.

We sometimes assume people will be a certain way, I wonder how many people would judge a woman who admitted to having an abortion. I think its smaller than we think.

Morag

eviltwin wrote: »

I wonder how much of that is percieved though.

We sometimes assume people will be a certain way, I wonder how many people would judge a woman who admitted to having an abortion. I think its smaller than we think.

But they tend to be rabid and all it takes is one person in a crowd of 20 to have a go at you and the rest not to stand up for you or with you and the damage is done.

I got called brave for standing infront of a room of aprox 150 people who were gathered to work for abortion rights, pro choice people everyone of them and I got got called brave for addressing the meeting made up of those people to say I had an abortion and it's important the campaign use the word abortion.

It should not have been considered brave, or bold or daring, but that is how it was described also as unprecedented and shocking, even after that fact that 15,000 irish women had had an abortion was mentioned it was still startling to abortion rights activists to hear someone publicly say I had an abortion. Which I must be honest is part why I did it, cos really I was sick of
the meeting being about silent women and I why should I be silent.

eviltwin

Morag wrote: »

But they tend to be rabid and all it takes is one person in a crowd of 20 to have a go at you and the rest not to stand up for you or with you and the damage is done.

I got called brave for standing infront of a room of aprox 150 people who were gathered to work for abortion rights, pro choice people everyone of them and I got got called brave for addressing the meeting made up of those people to say I had an abortion and it's important the campaign use the work abortion.

It should not have been considered brave, or bold or daring, but that is how it was described also as unprecedented and shocking, even after that fact that 15,000 irish women had had an abortion was mentioned it was still startling to abortion rights activists to hear someone publicly say I had an abortion. Which I must be honest is part why I did it, cos really I was sick of
the meeting being about silent women and I why should I be silent.

I can understand that.

I'm quite open about my abortion, my friends aren't particulary enlighted or anything but I didn't feel comfortable not being able to trust them with something that was such a big part of me. Some of them are pro life but have been great.

In fact the one person I did tell early on who I thought would be totally okay with it was the one person who judged me most of all so much so that we no longer speak.

I was scared but I had reached a point where keeping it a secret was doing me more harm so it was worth the risk. Its a very personal thing to admit to and you have to be very sure its the right thing to do but I'd love more women to be open about it if only to other women who have been there who aren't going to judge. That's what I find really bizarre. I'm sure many women have read these posts and those on other boards, I wish they could find the courage to post.

OldNotWIse

Morag wrote: »

But they tend to be rabid and all it takes is one person in a crowd of 20 to have a go at you and the rest not to stand up for you or with you and the damage is done.

I got called brave for standing infront of a room of aprox 150 people who were gathered to work for abortion rights, pro choice people everyone of them and I got got called brave for addressing the meeting made up of those people to say I had an abortion and it's important the campaign use the word abortion.

It should not have been considered brave, or bold or daring, but that is how it was described also as unprecedented and shocking, even after that fact that 15,000 irish women had had an abortion was mentioned it was still startling to abortion rights activists to hear someone publicly say I had an abortion. Which I must be honest is part why I did it, cos really I was sick of
the meeting being about silent women and I why should I be silent.

Rabid? I've never seen anyone act this way in front of a woman who has said she had an abortion. I think you are just assuming that will happen. In my group of friends some people are pro choice, some are pro life, even more are on the fence or only supportive in certain circusmstance and some just wont get engaged in it at all. There is also someone who has had an abortion. We dont all alienate her. But she also doesn't sit around parping on and on about it to make a point or to try to force people to be ok with it or whatever. We all just get on with it. Why would you want to go out of your way to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you have the right to talk about it? I have the right to talk about being gay but I dont sit my 88year old conservative catholic granny down and force her to listen to me because "I have a right to be heard". I think there should certainly be better post abortion counselling services for women (especially subsidised given that many abortions are carried out for economic reasons) so that women have a safe space to talk, but down the pub or whatever is not really the place to be discussing medical procedures anyway. I'd run a mile from someone who insisted on telling me about theirs!

Loafing Oaf

eviltwin wrote: »

I wonder how much of that is percieved though.

We sometimes assume people will be a certain way, I wonder how many people would judge a woman who admitted to having an abortion. I think its smaller than we think.

Indeed. A lot of Irish people like to maintain a public facade of rigid Catholic orthodoxy but are actually quite tolerant in their day-to-day dealings with people. I don't know that this is as true for women who have had abortions as for gay people, single mothers etc. but I'd guess it would be to a large extent.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

I wonder how much of that is percieved though.

We sometimes assume people will be a certain way, I wonder how many people would judge a woman who admitted to having an abortion. I think its smaller than we think.

It is, and also, remember that people (and this counts for all discussions) tend to be much more malicious and vitriolic when they can hide on the internet. Half the people here would probably not be so militant about their convictions if you were sitting across from them in a coffee shop or something. Thats the sad thing about the internet I suppose (and cyber bulllying too) - people get away with a lot more

robindch

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Half the people here would probably not be so militant about their convictions if you were sitting across from them in a coffee shop or something.

That may be true elsewhere, but here in A+A, we do try to keep discourse civil. So, I'm inclined to think that most regular posters would come across in real life much as they do here -- whether or not the topic is religion or the lack of it.

Agree, disagree?

B0jangles

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Rabid? I've never seen anyone act this way in front of a woman who has said she had an abortion...

.... But she also doesn't sit around parping on and on about it to make a point or to try to force people to be ok with it or whatever....

Just because you haven't personally witnessed something does not mean it didn't/doesn't happen; did you read eviltwin's post just above, where telling a friend about her abortion ended that friendship?

Also "parping"?

Really?

Morag

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Rabid? I've never seen anyone act this way in front of a woman who has said she had an abortion. I think you are just assuming that will happen.

I have had it happen to me.
and I wasn't

parping on and on about it to make a point or to try to force people to be ok with it or whatever.

Someone else had brought up the topic, and said the stat of 150,000 was lies and they didn't know anyone who had, had an abortion. I told them they did they knew me and they then went on to call me many names and shout and roar in my face.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I have the right to talk about being gay but I dont sit my 88year old conservative catholic granny down and force her to listen to me because "I have a right to be heard".

You seem to have confused, being an activist on this issue with being an idiot and being rude and having no idea of context.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I think there should certainly be better post abortion counselling services for women (especially subsidised given that many abortions are carried out for economic reasons) so that women have a safe space to talk, but down the pub or whatever is not really the place to be discussing medical procedures anyway. I'd run a mile from someone who insisted on telling me about theirs!

With in your circle of friends maybe.
also most people will tell a friend before they go looking for professional help, it's refereed to as first contact, and friends should be able to listen compassionately and suggest they seek professionall help if needed.

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Rabid? I've never seen anyone act this way in front of a woman who has said she had an abortion. I think you are just assuming that will happen. In my group of friends some people are pro choice, some are pro life, even more are on the fence or only supportive in certain circusmstance and some just wont get engaged in it at all. There is also someone who has had an abortion. We dont all alienate her. But she also doesn't sit around parping on and on about it to make a point or to try to force people to be ok with it or whatever. We all just get on with it. Why would you want to go out of your way to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you have the right to talk about it? I have the right to talk about being gay but I dont sit my 88year old conservative catholic granny down and force her to listen to me because "I have a right to be heard". I think there should certainly be better post abortion counselling services for women (especially subsidised given that many abortions are carried out for economic reasons) so that women have a safe space to talk, but down the pub or whatever is not really the place to be discussing medical procedures anyway. I'd run a mile from someone who insisted on telling me about theirs!

So how would you feel about someone who would 'run a mile' from you if you did 'parp on' about being gay down the pub?

There was a time in Ireland - and it wasn't all that long ago and indeed still exists - when being gay was a 'private' matter and not something to be discussed in public. How many times have we seen posts on this site that say 'I have no problem with the gays but why do they have to flaunt it?' 'Flaunting' can be as simple as holding hands or just saying 'I'm gay.'

Indeed, my own mother (who would be horrified if someone said she was homophobic) recently advised my son not to tell his work colleagues that I am gay as that is 'private and none of their business'* - she didn't like it when I asked her if she had told my nephew not to tell his work colleagues that his mother is straight...apparently that's 'different'. :rolleyes:


I don't think saying 'Actually, I have had an abortion' is discussing 'medical procedures' down the pub in the way you infer anymore than saying 'I had my gall bladder out' or 'I had my appendix removed' - should discussion of all medical procedures be avoided 'down the pub' or just the ones you don't agree with?

I have sat in the pub and listened to someone describe their gender reassignment 'medical procedures' in great detail - personally, I found it very interesting - made a change from the bloody X Factor and a blow by blow account of the latest local Lesbian golf tournament.




*so 'private' that I have said it on national television

OldNotWIse

robindch wrote: »

That may be true elsewhere, but here in A+A, we do try to keep discourse civil. So, I'm inclined to think that most regular posters would come across in real life much as they do here -- whether or not the topic is religion or the lack of it.

Agree, disagree?

Disagree, would have thought that was obvious from what I said in my post? Of course we will never know, so best we stick to our own opinions, and respect those of others.

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

. I think there should certainly be better post abortion counselling services for women (especially subsidised given that many abortions are carried out for economic reasons) so that women have a safe space to talk, but down the pub or whatever is not really the place to be discussing medical procedures anyway. I'd run a mile from someone who insisted on telling me about theirs!

I've certainly never spoken to anyone about the procedure, just the overall experience.

I compare it to the experience of a friend of mine who is a Magdelean baby. When the report came out I sent her a text knowing she might be feeling a bit down, letting her know I was thinking about her and was around if she needed to let off some steam. My friends now know that there are sometimes occasions I might need the same support, it now means they know why I go quiet at certain times of the year. Its just about knowing what issues might be personal to people you are close to and knowing their needs.

Isn't that what being a friend is all about?

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Disagree, would have thought that was obvious from what I said in my post? Of course we will never know, so best we stick to our own opinions, and respect those of others.

I have to say, I don't think using phrases like 'parping on about' is respectful of other's opinions.

Nor is inferring that we are all keyboard warriors...

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So how would you feel about someone who would 'run a mile' from you if you did 'parp on' about being gay down the pub?

There was a time in Ireland - and it wasn't all that long ago and indeed still exists - when being gay was a 'private' matter and not something to be discussed in public. How many times have we seen posts on this site that say 'I have no problem with the gays but why do they have to flaunt it?' 'Flaunting' can be as simple as holding hands or just saying 'I'm gay.'

Indeed, my own mother (who would be horrified if someone said she was homophobic) recently advised my son not to tell his work colleagues that I am gay as that is 'private and none of their business'* - she didn't like it when I asked her if she had told my nephew not to tell his work colleagues that his mother is straight...apparently that's 'different'. :rolleyes:


I don't think saying 'Actually, I have had an abortion' is discussing 'medical procedures' down the pub in the way you infer anymore than saying 'I had my gall bladder out' or 'I had my appendix removed' - should discussion of all medical procedures be avoided 'down the pub' or just the ones you don't agree with?

I have sat in the pub and listened to someone describe their gender reassignment 'medical procedures' in great detail - personally, I found it very interesting - made a change from the bloody X Factor and a blow by blow account of the latest local Lesbian golf tournament.




*so 'private' that I have said it on national television

Thankfully we tend not to discuss medical procedures in the pub, though perhaps others do in their groups. Maybe I'm missing out. Abortion is a medical procedure is it not?

Agree with you though on the lesbian golf tournament. Bleurgh

I'm not sure why the sudden correlation between being gay and having abortions. It may not be right that people cannot or could not talk about being gay...and it may not be right that women feel they cant talk about having an abortion...but that doesnt change the fact that I would not go out of my way to talk to someone about something they are clearly not comfortable with. That goes for any issue, not just being gay or having an abortion. I dont ring up my veggie friends and say, "lads you'll never guess what I saw when I was passing the abbatoir today".

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Thankfully we tend not to discuss medical procedures in the pub, though perhaps others do in their groups. Maybe I'm missing out. Abortion is a medical procedure is it not?

Agree with you though on the lesbian golf tournament. Bleurgh

I'm not sure why the sudden correlation between being gay and having abortions. It may not be right that people cannot or could not talk about being gay...and it may not be right that women feel they cant talk about having an abortion...but that doesnt change the fact that I would not go out of my way to talk to someone about something they are clearly not comfortable with. That goes for any issue, not just being gay or having an abortion. I dont ring up my veggie friends and say, "lads you'll never guess what I saw when I was passing the abbatoir today".

It has to do with the societal stigma attached and silencing people who do not conform - do you really not see that?

There was a time when we incarcerated single women for the 'crime' of being pregnant...

There was a time when the 'shame' of being gay forced people to stay silent...

Now, we want women who have had abortions to stay silent...

Silence = Ireland's way of pretending something doesn't exist so as a society we don't have to deal with it.

I dont ring up my veggie friends and say, "lads you'll never guess what I saw when I was passing the abbatoir today".

Why on Earth would one do something so crass?

BUT if a veggie friend went on about 'meat is murder' would you sit there silently and pretend that you had never, ever, even thought about eating meat never mind that you had recently had a steak for dinner?

OldNotWIse

B0jangles wrote: »

Just because you haven't personally witnessed something does not mean it didn't/doesn't happen; did you read eviltwin's post just above, where telling a friend about her abortion ended that friendship?

Also "parping"?


Really?

Yes really. It's a word. I am sorry if you dont like it.

I realise that just because you didnt witness somethign doesnt mean it doesnt happen, but are we allowed to bring our own experiences to the table?? No?? We must all speak only with 100% certainty and in statistics. Yet those who relay bad experiences at the hands of pro lifers have their stories heard. Interesting.

robindch

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Disagree, would have thought that was obvious from what I said in my post? Of course we will never know, so best we stick to our own opinions, and respect those of others.

Well, during the occasional A+A meetups, I've found everybody to be endearingly civil, especially when people have dug deep at the bar

And while "parping" is ok when referring to creationists in the creationism loonybin thread, it's really best avoided here.

ta.

Morag

Why are you trying to derail this discussion, if women saying here that they had an abortion in a thread about abortion is upsetting to you then don't read the thread.

Stop trying to stifle the discussion by saying we are tactless and rude.

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It has to do with the societal stigma attached and silencing people who do not conform - do you really not see that?

There was a time when we incarcerated single women for the 'crime' of being pregnant...

There was a time when the 'shame' of being gay forced people to stay silent...

Now, we want women who have had abortions to stay silent...

Silence = Ireland's way of pretending something doesn't exist so as a society we don't have to deal with it.




Why on Earth would one do something so crass?

BUT if a veggie friend went on about 'meat is murder' would you sit there silently and pretend that you had never, ever, even thought about eating meat never mind that you had recently had a steak for dinner?

So I am the bad guy now, because I dont want to listen to someone talking about something that I do not agree with and that makes me extremely uncomfortable? I am "trying to silence women"? Oh please..

OldNotWIse

robindch wrote: »

Well, during the occasional A+A meetups, I've found everybody to be endearingly civil, especially when people have dug deep at the bar

And while "parping" is ok when referring to creationists in the creationism loonybin thread, it's really best avoided here.

ta.

Is that in the charter? If so, apologies.

OldNotWIse

Morag wrote: »

Why are you trying to derail this discussion, if women saying here that they had an abortion in a thread about abortion is upsetting to you then don't read the thread.

Stop trying to stifle the discussion by saying we are tactless and rude.[/QUOTE]

???

robindch

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Is that in the charter? If so, apologies.

Not specifically, but prejudicial terms like that are best avoided in civil debate. thanks.

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

So I am the bad guy now, because I dont want to listen to someone talking about something that I do not agree with and that makes me extremely uncomfortable? I am "trying to silence women"? Oh please..

You were the one who said people's opinions should be respected - but you appear to want people to not describe their life experiences as you do not agree with their choices.

You don't have to listen if it makes you uncomfortable - but that does not mean they should not be allowed to speak.

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You were the one who said people's opinions should be respected - but you appear to want people to not describe their life experiences as you do not agree with their choices.

You don't have to listen if it makes you uncomfortable - but that does not mean they should not be allowed to speak.

I never said they shouldnt be allowed speak, just that I am not particularly comfortable listening to it. I think thats ok. Everybody has their own values and belief system and we should respect that?

robindch

Gentlepeoples all --

Please drop the discussion about the discussion.

Thanks.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Gentlepeoples all --

Please drop the discussion about the discussion.

Thanks.

Sorry Rob, usually I agree with you 100% but I think a discussion on why women don't talk about the fact they have had an abortion is incredibly important.

Breaking the Silence and all that...


We have here an opportunity to discuss this with someone who, it appears, doesn't want women to talk in public about having an abortion but that requires we discuss the discussion...




Apologies if this is deemed discussing mod instructions in the thread and will take an infraction if this is the case. I just think the issue of peer/societal enforced silence is very important so didn't want to say this in a private message.

marienbad

I have known quite a few women who have had abortions and this is going back 30 years,and none of them are open about it. In most cases , particularly the older ones,their own families are unaware of it.

And to deny that this is not part and parcel of the culture of shame and by extension control,fostered in Ireland is to describe a country I don't recognise.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

[...] I think a discussion on why women don't talk about the fact they have had an abortion is incredibly important.[...]

I entirely agree, but the discussion above appears/appeared to be veering off into the kind of uncivil i-said/you-said territory that's best avoided.

If everybody instead sticks to criticizing the views of others in a civil fashion, while respecting their right to hold them and to express them, also in a civil fashion, then discussing why women don't feel safe discussing any abortions they might have had, is fine with your friendly moderators.

Lingua Franca

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Disagree, would have thought that was obvious from what I said in my post?

I will just put my hand up and say that before I left Ireland I was an activist for many issues including abortion. I have stood with the megaphone and addressed the crowd, I have addressed meetings, I have written articles and letters and I've stood up to my own friends and family on issues I care about (I come from a long line of homophobes, for example). I have no reservation about speaking publically the way I do here. In fact, I'm not bound by a charter irl so I can speak even more freely.

I know that a few of the other posters here are also activists so your assumption that we're all only saying what we do because we're on the internet is factually incorrect.