Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am saying it is wrong for Irish society to expect people to deny or keep silent about their life experiences so we can pretend all is ok.

Do you think it is right that homosexuals were expected to keep quiet?

Do you think it is right that victims of clerical abuse were expected to keep quiet?

Do you think it is right that the Magdelenes were expected to keep quiet?

Until David Norris spoke out male homosexuality was illegal in Ireland - his actions broke the closet open. Every lesbian and gay man in Ireland owes David Norris a huge debt of gratitude for speaking out and forcing Ireland to recognise our existence and entitlement to equal rights.

Until Mary Raferty spoke out the Magdelenes still bore the stigma of 'fallen' women - her actions and those of the brave women who came forward exposed decades of illegal incarceration and slave labour. The State has officially apologised but it took over 16 years after the last of these vile institutions closed down- do you think it would have if the wall of silence and shame was still in place?

In 1934 The Cussen Report raised concerns about Ireland's Industrial Schools but recommended that the religious orders be allowed to remain in control of them. In 1989 Paddy Doyle wrote The God Squad, in 1991 Fear of the Collar by Patrick Touher was published but it took Christina Buckley's testament in Dear Daughter broadcast in 1997 to spark a public debate. But even then it was ignored by officialdom until Mary Raferty and Eoin O’Sullivan's States of Fear was broadcast in 1999. Do you think they should have stayed quiet?


To coerce victims of crime - and they were crimes - to remain silent is both legally and morally wrong - do you disagree?

To put this in a global context - do you think Mandela should have stayed quiet - after all, Apartheid was legal...

Do you think Martin Luther King should have stayed quiet - after all, segregation was legal...

Do you think Praveen Halappanavar should have stayed quiet?

Longest reply to a simple question ever.

Apartheid? Magdalenes? Really? I asked you a question about abortion (specifically, whether you are referring to subjective or legal "wrongness")

Can I assume the first sentence answers this? It seems to be the only part of your post actually remotely relevant to the simple question I asked you.

OldNotWIse

marienbad wrote: »

Surely you should compare apples with apples and morgages and abortions are'nt even close ,. Just using numbers is'nt enough.

Try telling that to those comparing it with apartheid and slave labour...

I'm a firm believer in comparing like with like, but it only seems to work at random times :(

marienbad

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Try telling that to those comparing it with apartheid and slave labour...

I'm a firm believer in comparing like with like, but it only seems to work at random times :(

So why does it not work in those instances ?

OldNotWIse

marienbad wrote: »

So why does it not work in those instances ?

What??
I just meant that sometimes people make ludicrous comparisons, and other times people are told that to make comparisons is bad. When I said "seems to work" I wasn't actually referring to the functionality of the comparisons, rather their seemingly intermittent permissability. Sorry I think my post was confusing in that regard.

Edit: re-read my post and it makes Zero sense Marien. What I should have said was, "I am a firm believer in comparing like with like but not everybody does this/people only do it when it suits them" - I think I must have fallen and hit my head

GCU Flexible Demeanour

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not sure I get you. Are you asking why those 150,000 aren't demanding legal abortion?

In a way - but it might even be broader than that. The 150,000 women who felt that abortion is a solution to a particular set of circumstances are not visitors from Mars. They are part of the same society that, politically, sees no pressing reason for legislation, or legal change.

marienbad wrote: »

Surely you should compare apples with apples and morgages and abortions are'nt even close ,. Just using numbers is'nt enough.

I was waiting for that. I'm not going to get lost in some comparison of whether the personal shame of defaulting on debt, or being deemed insolvent, is comparable - there's no sensible way of making such a comparison.

The validity of the comparison is simply this - another group of people with a significant crisis in their lives. Do I take it that you couldn't envisage 150,000 mortgage defaults not having an impact on the law, such as has happened simply with some tens of thousands being in arrears?

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Try telling that to those comparing it with apartheid and slave labour...



I'm a firm believer in comparing like with like, but it only seems to work at random times

It's obvious the comparison is not the acts themselves rather the silence of those affected. We've seen over the years the damage that silence does. Keeping a secret can be damaging to ones mental health. Being open allows others to be open, not just the women themselves but others, the partner who spoke about it etc. In a country where mental health is a huge issue we should be encouraging women to speak up and be providing safe spaces for them to do so.

eviltwin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

In a way - but it might even be broader than that. The 150,000 women who felt that abortion is a solution to a particular set of circumstances are not visitors from Mars. They are part of the same society that, politically, sees no pressing reason for legislation, or legal change.I was waiting for that. I'm not going to get lost in some comparison of whether the personal shame of defaulting on debt, or being deemed insolvent, is comparable - there's no sensible way of making such a comparison.



The validity of the comparison is simply this - another group of people with a significant crisis in their lives. Do I take it that you couldn't envisage 150,000 mortgage defaults not having an impact on the law, such as has happened simply with some tens of thousands being in arrears?

Well there is only so much the public can do. Just look at the gay marriage issue, overwhelming public support and the Government still won't fully address it.

It's a lot harder though for an issue like abortion where those women are often so stigmatised they don't feel able to admit to it. It's not an easy thing to do. I wish more would but if they feel they can't that has to be respected.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

It's obvious the comparison is not the acts themselves rather the silence of those affected. We've seen over the years the damage that silence does. Keeping a secret can be damaging to ones mental health. Being open allows others to be open, not just the women themselves but others, the partner who spoke about it etc. In a country where mental health is a huge issue we should be encouraging women to speak up and be providing safe spaces for them to do so.

I've already advocated pushing for improvements in this regard - its been ignored.

The implications of these comparisons do not sit well with me. I dont think its fair to say that because one is not comfortable talking to someone about their abortion because it goes against their belief system, that they necessarily think its ok to keep quiet about slave labour, child abuse etc.

marienbad

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

In a way - but it might even be broader than that. The 150,000 women who felt that abortion is a solution to a particular set of circumstances are not visitors from Mars. They are part of the same society that, politically, sees no pressing reason for legislation, or legal change.I was waiting for that. I'm not going to get lost in some comparison of whether the personal shame of defaulting on debt, or being deemed insolvent, is comparable - there's no sensible way of making such a comparison.

The validity of the comparison is simply this - another group of people with a significant crisis in their lives. Do I take it that you couldn't envisage 150,000 mortgage defaults not having an impact on the law, such as has happened simply with some tens of thousands being in arrears?

You are simplyfing things too much and if you were waiting for it I suspect you had an notion this was the case.

The reason the comparision is shaky is that 150k mortgage defaulters cannot ignored as the ripple effect across the wider economy would be catastrophic.

Not the same with 150k women sitting in isolation at home .

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Longest reply to a simple question ever.

Apartheid? Magdalenes? Really? I asked you a question about abortion (specifically, whether you are referring to subjective or legal "wrongness")

Can I assume the first sentence answers this? It seems to be the only part of your post actually remotely relevant to the simple question I asked you.

You responded to a post where I was clearly discussing the societal pressures put on people within Irish society to keep quiet about those things which are considered 'controversial'.

It was an observation on the damage this wall of silence has caused to so many people for so many decades complete with examples of where this has occurred.

No where in your response did you make it clear that you were referring only to abortion - indeed you did not mention abortion at all. You asked about morality and legality - I responded to those two points.

Perhaps if you had been clear and asked me about women who have had abortions in the first place I would have answered you on that specific point then, but it is hard to answer a question which hasn't actually been asked.


Do I think women should be silent about having an abortion - only if they decide for themselves that they want to be.

Do I think women should remain silent about having an abortion because other people are uncomfortable/don't approve/fear of abuse/fear of judgement/ fear of being ostracised - NO. I DO NOT.

Why - because that is bullying them. There is nothing 'subjectively' moral about bullying. It is always wrong.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

Well there is only so much the public can do. Just look at the gay marriage issue, overwhelming public support and the Government still won't fully address it.

It's a lot harder though for an issue like abortion where those women are often so stigmatised they don't feel able to admit to it. It's not an easy thing to do. I wish more would but if they feel they can't that has to be respected.

A lot of gay people do still feel stigmatised though. My OH is not out to her family because she is ashamed of who she is.

And also a lot of gay people who are out and who have the support of friends and family did not get there overnight. People take time to adjust. Being told your child/sibling is gay is still a big thing for a lot of people. Most of the gay friends I have who are out did not just breeze out of the closet, but they were brave enough to come out and say, "this is me, accept me the way I am".

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You responded to a post where I was clearly discussing the societal pressures put on people within Irish society to keep quiet about those things which are considered 'controversial'.

It was an observation on the damage this wall of silence has caused to so many people for so many decades complete with examples of where this has occurred.

No where in your response did you make it clear that you were referring only to abortion - indeed you did not mention abortion at all. You asked about morality and legality - I responded to those two points.

Perhaps if you had been clear and asked me about women who have had abortions in the first place I would have answered you on that specific point then, but it is hard to answer a question which hasn't actually been asked.


Do I think women should be silent about having an abortion - only if they decide for themselves that they want to be.

Do I think women should remain silent about having an abortion because other people are uncomfortable/don't approve/fear of abuse/fear of judgement/ fear of being ostracised - NO. I DO NOT.

Why - because that is bullying them. There is nothing 'subjectively' moral about bullying. It is always wrong.

Like I said, thank you for the first sentence which seemed to address my question.

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

A lot of gay people do still feel stigmatised though. My OH is not out to her family because she is ashamed of who she is.

And also a lot of gay people who are out and who have the support of friends and family did not get there overnight. People take time to adjust. Being told your child/sibling is gay is still a big thing for a lot of people. Most of the gay friends I have who are out did not just breeze out of the closet, but they were brave enough to come out and say, "this is me, accept me the way I am".

and you don't think people saying "this is me, accept me the way I am" when it was illegal and considered a shameful little secret helped?

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and you don't think people saying "this is me, accept me the way I am" when it was illegal and considered a shameful little secret helped?

Why are you telling me what I dont think? I've had people trying to tell me what I think which is well cheeky, but this is a new one.

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Like I said, thank you for the first sentence which seemed to address my question.

Then why the subsequent post?

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Then why the subsequent post?

There's no room on this thread anymore with all the black pots and kettles

marienbad

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Why are you telling me what I dont think? I've had people trying to tell me what I think which is well cheeky, but this is a new one.

But is that not what you were doing when you objected to women discussing abortion in a social setting ?

OldNotWIse

marienbad wrote: »

But is that not what you were doing when you objected to women discussing abortion in a social setting ?

Telling other people what they are not thinking?

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Why are you telling me what I dont think? I've had people trying to tell me what I think which is well cheeky, but this is a new one.

See that symbol at the end of my sentence? That is a question mark - it means I was asking you a question. Or to put it another way - seeking clarification of what you do think.

Here is another question - since when is asking someone a question 'telling them what they don't think'?

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

There's no room on this thread anymore with all the black pots and kettles

What?

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

A lot of gay people do still feel stigmatised though. My OH is not out to her family because she is ashamed of who she is.

And also a lot of gay people who are out and who have the support of friends and family did not get there overnight. People take time to adjust. Being told your child/sibling is gay is still a big thing for a lot of people. Most of the gay friends I have who are out did not just breeze out of the closet, but they were brave enough to come out and say, "this is me, accept me the way I am".

I don't doubt that and we still have a way to go before there is total acceptance but the more we break down the stigma and get away from that stereotypical image of a gay person the easier it will be.

My own child came out last year and I had my reservations about telling certain people in the family who I knew had been very homophobic when I was younger. They were great! Took it in their stride and I have no doubt its thanks to the generation before her who were brave enough to be openly gay.

The same goes for post abortive women, they shouldn't feel that there is shame in what they did or that it shouldn't be discussed. It breaks my heart to think of all those women carrying this around too afraid to tell anyone out of fear.

OldNotWIse

I'd actually be interested to see some stats shedding light on why women keep quiet about their abortions. I know a few people who have had one (they dont know that I know) and they never seem to talk about it, some have not told their partners. I wonder is it all because of the external negativity or is there an element of expectation there also? Hard to know.

marienbad

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Telling other people what they are not thinking?

I don't understand this reply . Could you be a little less cryptic please ?

robindch

Folks, avoid the minor karma potholes, think chill pills, relaxation, scarlet deep-padded couches, feet up, beer/vodka/wine in hand, soothing music playing, sunshine outside, scent of roses gently wafting about the room, calmness all around.

thanks.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't doubt that and we still have a way to go before there is total acceptance but the more we break down the stigma and get away from that stereotypical image of a gay person the easier it will be.

My own child came out last year and I had my reservations about telling certain people in the family who I knew had been very homophobic when I was younger. They were great! Took it in their stride and I have no doubt its thanks to the generation before her who were brave enough to be openly gay.

The same goes for post abortive women, they shouldn't feel that there is shame in what they did or that it shouldn't be discussed. It breaks my heart to think of all those women carrying this around too afraid to tell anyone out of fear.

That is a fair point. Maybe those who are against abortion are afraid that normalising it will lead to increased rates? I dont know, just conjecture.

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I'd actually be interested to see some stats shedding light on why women keep quiet about their abortions. I know a few people who have had one (they dont know that I know) and they never seem to talk about it, some have not told their partners. I wonder is it all because of the external negativity or is there an element of expectation there also? Hard to know.

What do you mean by "an element of expectation"?

OldNotWIse

marienbad wrote: »

I don't understand this reply . Could you be a little less cryptic please ?

I cant actually remember how the conversation started

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

What do you mean by "an element of expectation"?

That they might expect a negative reaction from people because they think people will not be supportive or they see people being negative about the whole issue.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Folks, chill pills, relax, think couches, feet up, beer/vodka/wine in hand, soothing music playing, sunshine outside, scent of roses gently wafting about the room, calmness all around.

thanks.

So chilled have nearly achieved Nirvana but slightly perplexed as to when asking a question became telling someone what they do or do not think or how it is possible to answer a specific question one has not actually been asked...

OldNotWIse

Bannasidhe wrote: »

See that symbol at the end of my sentence? That is a question mark - it means I was asking you a question. Or to put it another way - seeking clarification of what you do think.

Here is another question - since when is asking someone a question 'telling them what they don't think'?

Grammar lessons now on top of everything else.

Please stop engaging with me. It's futile for both it seems