Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

GCU Flexible Demeanour

eviltwin wrote: »

Well there is only so much the public can do. Just look at the gay marriage issue, overwhelming public support and the Government still won't fully address it.

Without overwhelming public support, Government couldn't function.

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a lot harder though for an issue like abortion where those women are often so stigmatised they don't feel able to admit to it. It's not an easy thing to do.

Not an easy thing for 150,000 people to do? Do you start seeing any crack in that kind of statement?

marienbad wrote: »

You are simplyfing things too much and if you were waiting for it I suspect you had an notion this was the case.

Well, I'd a notion that someone would try to avoid the point by trying to divert attention into a pointless comparison.

marienbad wrote: »

Not the same with 150k women sitting in isolation at home .

150,000 isolated people? I think the point is being constructively avoided.

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Grammar lessons now on top of everything else.

Please stop engaging with me. It's futile for both it seems

But...but....

Oh, never mind....

eviltwin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

.Not an easy thing for 150,000 people to do? Do you start seeing any crack in that kind of statement?Well, I'd a notion that someone would try to avoid the point by trying to divert attention into a pointless comparison.150,000 isolated people? I think the point is being constructively avoided.

It might seem easy to you to mobilise those women but you have to find them first. I've tried. Very few women are prepared to talk about it even to another woman who has been there, can you imagine trying to get them to go public?

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

It might seem easy to you to mobilise those women but you have to find them first. I've tried. Very few women are prepared to talk about it even to another woman who has been there, can you imagine trying to get them to go public?

True, our society stigmatises it to the extent that they cant talk about it openly.

marienbad

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Without overwhelming public support, Government couldn't function.Not an easy thing for 150,000 people to do? Do you start seeing any crack in that kind of statement?Well, I'd a notion that someone would try to avoid the point by trying to divert attention into a pointless comparison.150,000 isolated people? I think the point is being constructively avoided.

You are avoiding the point- try and answer it instead of the one liners.

there is no comparision between 150k mortgage defaulters and 150k women who have had abortions.

In the first case if it is ignored the economy will implode and politicitians tend to respond to that or are forced to respond to it.

In the case of abortion - are you seriously suggesting they have the same clout ?

Morag

Why compare the lack of abortion rights with other cases were a person's rights have been lacking or ignored or denied?

Because those rights are lacking, women are not equal citizens while the 8th amendment is in place.

What small right we did get granted by the supreme courts has been ignored for the last 21 years after the X Case ruling.

Where there is a right to an abortion like in Savita's case it was denied, resulting in the loss of her life.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

eviltwin wrote: »

It might seem easy to you to mobilise those women but you have to find them first.

I'm not suggesting it's easy at all. I suppose I'm partly suggesting that they may not want to be found; I don't see how else we can reconcile the fact of the matter. I'm not judging anyone, or doing anything apart from suggesting the need for reflection on just how strange this fact is.

marienbad wrote: »

You are avoiding the point- try and answer it instead of the one liners.

But, sure, I've no interest in discussing an anticipated red herring.

marienbad wrote: »

there is no comparision between 150k mortgage defaulters and 150k women who have had abortions.

In political terms, there is.

marienbad wrote: »

In the case of abortion - are you seriously suggesting they have the same clout ?

If 150,000 people mobilised with a common purpose, it most certainly couldn't be ignored.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

<...> in Savita's case it was denied, resulting in the loss of her life.

Still not demonstrated. Maybe it will be. But not presently.

eviltwin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it's easy at all. I suppose I'm partly suggesting that they may not want to be found; I don't see how else we can reconcile the fact of the matter. I'm not judging anyone, or doing anything apart from suggesting the need for reflection on just how strange this fact is.But, sure, I've no interest in discussing an anticipated red herring.In political terms, there is.If 150,000 people mobilised with a common purpose, it most certainly couldn't be ignored.

Thats the whole point though. If we continue to hide the reality of abortion in this country we just allow that stigma to continue which means that women won't feel safe admitting to it. If we could just deal with that stigma maybe some would feel a bit more confident about sharing it.

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

Thats the whole point though. If we continue to hide the reality of abortion in this country we just allow that stigma to continue which means that women won't feel safe admitting to it. If we could just deal with that stigma maybe some would feel a bit more confident about sharing it.

Another Irish Catch 22 situation.

marienbad

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it's easy at all. I suppose I'm partly suggesting that they may not want to be found; I don't see how else we can reconcile the fact of the matter. I'm not judging anyone, or doing anything apart from suggesting the need for reflection on just how strange this fact is.But, sure, I've no interest in discussing an anticipated red herring.In political terms, there is.If 150,000 people mobilised with a common purpose, it most certainly couldn't be ignored.

No red herring , at this stage I must assume you just don't get it.

You might as well ask why did'nt 150k gays mobilise in 1930 or the magdalene laundry women mobilise in 1960.

You can't compare a economic issue that can't be ignored with a social issue that can.

Now if you want to discuss why we are so slow to push social change lets do so, but if its is just oneliners you have to offer I'm done.

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

No red herring , at this stage I must assume you just don't get it.

You might as well ask why did'nt 150k gays mobilise in 1930 or the magdalene laundry women mobilise in 1960.

You can't compare a economic issue that can't be ignored with a social issue that can.

Now if you want to discuss why we are so slow to push social change lets do so, but if its is just oneliners you have to offer I'm done.

Or social conservatism may have something to do with our education system being controlled for so long by a certain socially conservative (to put it mildly) religious organisation... or it might not...:cool:

GCU Flexible Demeanour

marienbad wrote: »

...You might as well ask why did'nt 150k gays mobilise in 1930 or the magdalene laundry women mobilise in 1960.
You can't compare a economic issue that can't be ignored with a social issue that can.

Now if you want to discuss why we are so slow to push social change lets do so, but if its is just oneliners you have to offer I'm done.

But, sure, that's mostly repeating the issue that I've raised; it's absolutely about (if you prefer those examples) why 150,000 women show no more inclination to mobilise than others in the 1930s or 60s, and less inclination to mobilise than supporters of the Western Rail Corridor. Bear in mind, the issue with reform of insolvency and repossession law isn't about loan losses being unavoidable; its about who has to bear the loss. The point is that pushes the losses away to others.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or social conservatism may have something to do with our education system being controlled for so long by a certain socially conservative (to put it mildly) religious organisation... or it might not ...

It could be; but if their control over education is so influential, it wouldn't fit with 150,000 people seeing abortion as a solution to a particular set of circumstances.

Bannasidhe

=GCU Flexible Demeanour;83425103
It could be; but if their control over education is so influential, it wouldn't fit with 150,000 people seeing abortion as a solution to a particular set of circumstances.

Indeed - if one fails to factor in the element of desperation.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed - if one fails to factor in the element of desperation.

Grand, but that desperation used to be dealt with in a different way. Take one example. After adoption was formally regulated, right through the 60s, 70s and even into the 80s, there used to be something like 1,000 adoptions a year. Now, there's hardly any and a negligible amount when you exclude adoptions within families. I'm not saying one response is better or worse than any other. I'm just pointing out that, at present, there's an apparent disconnect between how we deal with these things in private, and how they are approached in the public space. There isn't the same disconnect between the private action of hiding your daughter away in the Magdalene laundry for a year until she had the baby, and putting the child up for adoption through a confidential process, and the public space prohibiting abortion. There is something strange at work here - and I'm not pretending to have much more to say than "this is strange".

Leinsterr

Although I don't agree with the morality of abortion, it should be legal here in Ireland. This isn't one size fits all, everyone has their opinion. It should be an option where no one is forced into it. That's my two cents.

lazygal

Leinsterr wrote: »

Although I don't agree with the morality of abortion, it should be legal here in Ireland. This isn't one size fits all, everyone has their opinion. It should be an option where no one is forced into it. That's my two cents.

What's the 'morality of abortion'?

Morag

why 150,000 women show no more inclination to mobilise

The stigma and taboo which surrounds abortion isolates women.
When you are so isolated it is hard to find solidarity and support and to mobilise.

lazygal

Morag wrote: »

The stigma and taboo which surrounds abortion isolates women.
When you are so isolated it is hard to find solidarity and support and to mobilise.

Even women who had terminations for foetal abnormalities have only recently started to tell their stories. They were accused of having a wider agenda by Ronan Mullen just for speaking about their experience. Imagine what's in store for women who had abortions because they didn't want a child at all, or didn't want a large family, or didn't want a child at that time in their lives.

marienbad

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

But, sure, that's mostly repeating the issue that I've raised; it's absolutely about (if you prefer those examples) why 150,000 women show no more inclination to mobilise than others in the 1930s or 60s, and less inclination to mobilise than supporters of the Western Rail Corridor. Bear in mind, the issue with reform of insolvency and repossession law isn't about loan losses being unavoidable; its about who has to bear the loss. The point is that pushes the losses away to others.It could be; but if their control over education is so influential, it wouldn't fit with 150,000 people seeing abortion as a solution to a particular set of circumstances.

You just don't get it, there are public issues and private issues.

How do 150k women that have had abortions connect for instance ? You have no idea of their inclinations one way or the other.

But happily for society that is all changing and for one reason only- the internet. The powers that be can no longer control the flow of information.
But it takes time to throw off centuries of indoctrination,but the speed of change is accelerating all the time.

Turtwig

Often times it's only when something directly impacts a person's life that that person speaks out about it. In the case of many women who have abortions it's not a situation they'll probably find themselves in again so the motivation to speak out about it is somewhat diminished as whatever personal impact it had on their lives the returns from energy spent in campaigning about it just isn't really there.
Especially when you couple this with the stigma and perceived social condemnation of women who did abort by some elements of society it's not hard to see why the vast majority of women currently don't speak about it.

Leinsterr

lazygal wrote: »

What's the 'morality of abortion'?

Whether it's more important to give each person a fair chance at life (allowing the foetus to be born) or should we end the life of a child that might not be loved and cared for; how do we value life etc etc

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

The stigma and taboo which surrounds abortion isolates women.
When you are so isolated it is hard to find solidarity and support and to mobilise.

If the isolation was so total, they wouldn't have been able to find out how to source an abortion. It's the sheer number that makes the appeal to 'isolation' so discordant. What we seem to have is just about enough solidarity and support to ensure information is there; but not enough for even the slightest bit of legislation.

Again, I can't account for it. I'm still as blank on the topic as when I first raised it.

marienbad wrote: »

You just don't get it, there are public issues and private issues.

? I introduced the contrast between the public and private space, a couple of posts ago.

Jernal wrote: »

Often times it's only when something directly impacts a person's life that that person speaks out about it. In the case of many women who have abortions it's not a situation they'll probably find themselves in again so the motivation to speak out about it is somewhat diminished as whatever personal impact it had on their lives the returns from energy spent in campaigning about it just isn't really there.

That's certainly credible. Yet, it should be creating a pool of sympathetic opinion. Plus, you'd expect the pool of women who've needed and obtained abortions to be a subset of the pool who would see it as a valid option, but just haven't needed one. It seems to be such a frequent choice, that it just doesn't seem credible to suggest that Irish women have been indoctrinated against it.

Which, unfortunately, will only bring me back to where I started. The enormous gap between the public and private space is very hard to account for. It can be glossed over with an appeal to "isolation", and that appeal will certainly work as a distraction when it's obvious that there's no appetite to explore the matter further. 150,000 Eleanor Rigbys, enough to populate Cork City. Obviously, nothing to see here.

eviltwin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

If the isolation was so total, they wouldn't have been able to find out how to source an abortion. It's the sheer number that makes the appeal to 'isolation' so discordant. What we seem to have is just about enough solidarity and support to ensure information is there; but not enough for even the slightest bit of legislation.

.

Well that's easy, you go on Google or go to a family planning clinic or in the old days you just rang UK directory enquires. Its actually really easy to organise.

The problem is when you come home.

Some women want to talk about it but there is virtually nowhere to do so. You have counsellors but maybe you don't need counselling, maybe you just want to talk it out with someone who has been there and will be available for you if you are having a bad day or something.

Where do you find these women?

I spent 4 years trying to find women to talk to, a face to face support group I helped run had to be disbanded because despite a lot of interested emails and phone calls no one was prepared to meet up in person. Why? Because they were too afraid, too ashamed, terrified we might actually be some pro life group in disguise and bawl them out of it.

Some of these women were so scared they wouldn't even talk on the phone in case they were recognised or even give a number, that's how scared they were of this secret being discovered.

So that's what you are up against when you try to "mobilise" 150,000+ women. If you have some insight into how to get people who don't want to talk let alone go public I'd love to hear it.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

eviltwin wrote: »

If you have some insight into how to get people who don't want to talk let alone go public I'd love to hear it.

Oh, I've no insight whatsoever. And I won't endlessly circle over the significance of this lonely crowd.

Turtwig

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Oh, I've no insight whatsoever. And I won't endlessly circle over the significance of this lonely crowd.

Well, that's being constructive.

Morag

There has been a push to do 'shareyourabortionstory' here with irish women.
There are other sites were women share thier stories, usually anon.
It helps to know you are not alone.
For the last 4 months despite having an gmail account people can email to anon, we have less then a handful of stories come in.

The Terminations for Medical Reason's women are sharing their stories.
But they use the word termination, not abortion and all stress how much they wanted another child, that they are a married couple, so theirs are consider the tragic, 'good' types of abortions.

For those of us who just did not want to have a baby or a pregnancy at that stage of our life's for what ever reason, those are bad abortions, those are the ones which you get called reckless, careless, irresponsible for. Those are the ones which are still very much taboo.

eviltwin

[QUOTE=Morag;83431741

For those of us who just did not want to have a baby or a pregnancy at that stage of our life's for what ever reason, those are bad abortions, those are the ones which you get called reckless, careless, irresponsible for. Those are the ones which are still very much taboo.[/QUOTE]

That's it exactly. Its bad enough to have people call you a "murderer" without the extra burden of them passing judgement on your character because you had one of those dreaded "social" abortions.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Jernal wrote: »

Well, that's being constructive.

In fairness, all I'm trying to construct is an understanding of the situation. I do appreciate that others might have an interest in actually achieving mobilisation, if that was a step towards change. My interest is more teasing out what the absence of any apparent political implication arising from the widespread practice of abortion.

Just as there's a public and private space in this, there's a macro and micro. Again, I'm more interested in the macro, how this works at a political or social level. From that perspective, the feeling of isolation that an individual experience is not the object of wonder - it's the recognition that, inactuality, the person is far from being alone. It's the wonder of looking at the political process, at voting patterns, at the relative priorities established, and consider than 150,000 women, apparently, have the shared experience of a furtive journey - and there's no political consequence. That's enough first preferences to get 11 seats in the Dail - maybe a little less than Sinn Fein.

It's strange, and it would be dumb to pretend anyone could produce an explanation on the fly. My working thought is what I've said - it suggests most women's preferences are met by the furtive journey. They come back to a reasonably happy life, that they don't want to change. Problem solved.

eviltwin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

It's strange, and it would be dumb to pretend anyone could produce an explanation on the fly. My working thought is what I've said - it suggests most women's preferences are met by the furtive journey. They come back to a reasonably happy life, that they don't want to change. Problem solved.

I don't think that is the case at all.

I'm one of those women, I was thankful I had the means to travel but I would have much preferred the option of being able to access abortion here. I had never really thought about it in any detail until I found myself in that position and that was the only choice open to me. And it was really only after I came home and the dust settled that I could see the impact having to go abroad had on me and my partner but by that stage I was so emotionally and mentally vulnerable that taking a stand was not in my best interests.

I'd imagine many women are the same, never really think too deeply about it until it affects them personally or someone close to them. Hopping of a flight to the UK doesn't seem that big a deal, but when you are doing it out of lack of choice and within a time limit when you are under so much mental pressure its just another obstacle you don't need.

In the case of women who have abortions for medical reasons the cost is even greater - thousands of euros in many cases - and they often can't bring their baby's body home due to red tape which just makes a difficult situation for them even worse.

And thats before you even look at the lack of decent aftercare.

Why do you think its okay to put women through that?