Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Morag

It is a frequent choice and the states of 5% put us in and around the EU mean average.
Which is all the more reason to legislate and provide services here.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

It is a frequent choice and the states of 5% put us in and around the EU mean average.
Which is all the more reason to legislate and provide services here.

Indeed, that's a possible political position.

Leaving aside advocacy, a point of interest is how we came to adopt the "EU mean average" practice without the "EU mean average" legislation.

robindch

Looks like christians support terminations after all:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/fired-for-premarital-sex-pregnant-woman-sues-christian-college-video-91121/

Christian Post wrote:

A woman claims she was fired for having premarital sex by a Christian college in San Diego, California. Teri James has since filed a lawsuit against San Diego Christian College in El Cajon claiming wrongful termination. She admits that she became pregnant through having premarital sex, and has claimed that this was the reason the Christian college dismissed her. James has now hired high profile attorney, Gloria Allred, to argue her case against SDCC, according to KGTV.

In November 2012, Allred became the attorney for Natalie Khawan, twin sister to Jill Kelley in the General David Petraeus scandal, during her custody dispute for her son. James has claimed that she was told by the human resources director at the college that she was not being fired for being pregnant, but instead for engaging in premarital sex. She claims she was given two options; quit or be fired. Allred has made clear these allegations, telling media sources: "The HR director indicated that she was not being fired because she was pregnant. Instead, she was being terminated because she had premarital sex."

James was reportedly fired from the Christian college four months ago, where she had been employed as a financial aid specialist. She claims that her employers were satisfied with her work until they learned of her pregnancy out of wedlock. James, who is currently six months pregnant, revealed her lawsuit at a press conference in California in mid-February, stating that she is suing the university due to discrimination by gender, pregnancy, and marital status. She claimed, "San Diego Christian College did not show any mercy or grace towards me, and acted completely un-Christ-like. They made more of a business decision than showing God's love."

On the San Diego Christian College website the school has put in place a clear doctrinal position that all employees must adhere to. The school mandates that all job candidates sign a "community covenant" before they are hired, which explicitly states that all employees will "abstain from sexually immoral behavior, including pre-marital sex, adultery, pornography and homosexuality." The San Diego Christian College is by no means the first Christian institution to enforce biblical ethics on employees to maintain its integrity. In 2008 Shorter University enforced a new policy called the Personal Lifestyle Statement, which explicitly forbade pre-marital sex, adultery, and homosexual behavior. In that case, although a number of employees became disgruntled about the new policy, it was found to be completely legal in the state of Georgia.

In the present case involving Teri James, her attorney has sought to argue that gender discrimination is the major proponent. She has explained this by saying, "How would they know if a man was having pre-marital sex unless he was able to show that he was pregnant?" It has also been reported that James' boyfriend, who has now become her husband, was later offered a position at the college. It has been claimed that the human resource personnel knew about his relationship to James when he was offered the job.

Nodin

Anti-abortion groups the Life Institute and its sister organisation, Youth Defence, ignored six requests from the political watchdog regarding their potential status as a lobby group, it has emerged.
The Standards in Public Office Commission (Sipo) sent letters and emails to both organisations seeking clarity on whether they should be registered as third parties for political purposes.
Frustration
The commission has expressed frustration at current legislation, which provides no sanction to compel organisations to co-operate with it.
An organisation becomes a third party under the Electoral Act if it lobbies for political purposes.
In that case it must declare every donation over €100 and set up a political donations account.
Third parties can only accept donations of up to €2,500, and cannot accept donations from overseas unless the donor is an Irish citizen or from a corporation that has offices in Ireland

Life Institute director Niamh Uí Bhriain said it was “an education and awareness body seeking to protect the right to life of every person”.
“Making the public aware of potential human rights abuses is not political lobbying,” she said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0302/1224330698219.html

Because theres no way lobbying TD's with slogans like "keep your promise" is political lobbying. No. That would be mad, ted.
http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/current-projects/keep-your-promise--2012/

aloyisious

A group, Wicklow Pro Life, is holding a meeting in Bray on Tuesday. It might be interesting to see who'll be there, seeing as how they have posters up around Bray with the photos of Andrew Doyle, Billy Timmins and Simon Harris on them. That would seem to be targetting FG TD's. The following letter is from the group site.

Wicklow Constituency
To: Oireachtas Members – Wicklow
Deputy Andrew Doyle
Deputy Simon Harris
Deputy Billy Timmins
Deputy Stephen Donnelly
To: An Taoiseach Enda Kenny
To: Minister For Health Dr. James Reilly




Dear Oireachtas Member,
As a pro-life person, I am deeply saddened by the death of Savita Halappanavar.

The details of her case won't be clear until the proper investigations are completed.

But the Medical Council Guidelines are very clear - women in pregnancy must receive all necessary medical treatment to protect their lives even where the death of the baby unavoidably results.

I am very concerned, though, at the way Savita's tragic death is being used politically to further the pro-abortion agenda of groups and media seeking legislation along the lines the X case ruling. The X case heard no medical evidence and, if legislated or regulated for, would lead to abortion on demand.

The very voices now clamouring for abortion remained silent in the face of the recent disclosures in the Irish Independent of life-threatening and illegal advice being given by State funded pro-choice agencies to pregnant women. These double standards are appalling.

If the options in the Report of the Expert Group just presented to Minister Reilly contain only proposals favouring abortion, then we'll know that, there too, a pro-abortion agenda has taken precedence over the protection of the lives of mothers and babies in pregnancy.

As my Oireachtas Member, I ask you to work within your party to resist any move to bring in abortion and to work instead so that the lives of women in pregnancy are safeguarded and that the duty of care to preserve the life of the baby is also upheld.

I would appreciate hearing from you on this.

Yours sincerely,


Please complete the following form (* indicates a required field):


We respect your Privacy. Click here for information


The Virtual Postcard Campaign is an initiative of the Pro Life Campaign Ireland, 104, Lower Baggot Street, Dublin 2. The Pro Life Campaign is a non-denominational lobby group, drawing its support from a cross-section of Irish society. The Campaign promotes pro-life education and defends human life at all stages, from conception to natural death. For further information visit www.prolifecampaign.ie. For information on this initiative, email info@prolifecampaign.ie

The Black Oil

Ugh, they've a link to Rachael's Vineyard on that site.

mohawk

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Well, yes, it rather does. If at least 5% of pregnancies are terminated, it is obviously a frequent choice made by Irish women. On the other hand, if only .05% of pregnancies ultimately result in adoption by complete strangers, that's obviously a very rare practice.

You'll appreciate, a large part of my point is to suggest people need to reflect on the fact that abortion is actually quite an accepted practice (in the private space). The oddballs are the people who choose putting their child for adoption. You'll also appreciate, a large part of my point is the extent to which you wouldn't know this from most public discourse, despite the factual information being there for everyone to see.

You can argue about abortion being mainstream and in fairness the stats back you up.

IMHO its hard to reconcile something being mainstream when the 150,000 women have been shoved into the closet along with the rest of the nations skeletons.

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

A group, Wicklow Pro Life, is holding a meeting in Bray on Tuesday.

Is there going to be a counter-protest?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

mohawk wrote: »

IMHO its hard to reconcile something being mainstream when the 150,000 women have been shoved into the closet along with the rest of the nations skeletons.

I might jiggle it a little and add "but it's also hard to say 'shoved into the closet' when there's 150,000 of them in a very crowded closet". We could alternatively say "150,000 women going under the radar to the UK", which I think is a better reflection of the kind of issue that's raised. Is this the only part of Irish life where things are formally one way, but actually another?

aloyisious

ninja900 wrote: »

Is there going to be a counter-protest?

I don't know about that, probably not worth giving them cheap publicity and bolstering their sense of worth. It's on at the Royal Hotel at 8PM. I might just "infiltrate" it to get an idea of what's/who's what, know the opposition - so to speak. I'd be interested in how many of the invited speakers are from Wicklow, or imported for the occasion. It'd be real good if one (or more) of the targetted TD's show's up to answer them.

Bichon Lover

Well they are spreading their wings, interfering in the North now.

The DUP and SDLP are trying to ban private abortions and campaigners include " former MEP Rosemary Dana Scallon, and Fianna Fail Senator Jim Walsh." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21635982
Not to mention Kathy Sinott.

Nodin

Bichon Lover wrote: »

Well they are spreading their wings, interfering in the North now.

The DUP and SDLP are trying to ban private abortions and campaigners include " former MEP Rosemary Dana Scallon, and Fianna Fail Senator Jim Walsh." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21635982
Not to mention Kathy Sinott.

When I read about that before, I thought it said "members of the SDLP" were behind it, so I didn't think the party as an organisation backed it.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

I found this, while looking for something else, and consequently thought of this thread. (If anyone knows of any articles on the elasiticity of demand for legal services, I'd be more than grateful).

Medoff, M. H. (1988), AN ECONOMIC ANALYSIS OF THE DEMAND FOR ABORTIONS. Economic Inquiry, 26: 353–359. doi: 10.1111/j.1465-7295.1988.tb01499.x

http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/~lyamane/medoff.pdf

This study uses an economic model of fertility control to estimate the demand for abortions. The results show that the fundamental law of demand holds for abortions, with the price elasticity of demand equal to –.81. Abortions are a normal good with an income elasticity of demand equal to .79. The demand for abortions is also positively related to the labor force participation of women and to being unmarried. Catholic religion, education and the poverty status of women were found to have no statistically significant impact on the demand for abortions.

In other words, the article suggests that demand for abortion depends on cost; hence any action that increases cost will reduce demand, while any action that reduces cost will increase demand. Also, demand for abortion will increase where incomes tend to increase, independently of any other factor.

The finding that Catholics are just as likely to avail of abortion as anyone else is interesting, and consistent with our own experience. It reminds me of that one about the difference between Jihadist heaven and Irish Catholic heaven. "You'll be met by forty women. They may or may not be virgins, but they'll tell you they are."

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I found this, while looking for something else, and consequently thought of this thread. (If anyone knows of any articles on the elasiticity of demand for legal services, I'd be more than grateful).In other words, the article suggests that demand for abortion depends on cost; hence any action that increases cost will reduce demand, while any action that reduces cost will increase demand. Also, demand for abortion will increase where incomes tend to increase, independently of any other factor.

The finding that Catholics are just as likely to avail of abortion as anyone else is interesting, and consistent with our own experience. It reminds me of that one about the difference between Jihadist heaven and Irish Catholic heaven. "You'll be met by forty women. They may or may not be virgins, but they'll tell you they are."

Can that also not be read as the number availing of a medical procedure depends on cost rather than actual demand?

I know that many people are not availing of GP services due to cost whereas before the big financial squeeze they would have.
I know this as I have spent the last week with an OH with an ear infection who is mainlining nurofen plus but simply doesn't have the 50 quid to go see the GP as her car tax is due.
I imagine that there are figures that show a decline in GP attendance which could be described as a fall in demand when in fact it is more likely to be the decline in affordability having a knock on effect.

(and yes, I did offer to pay but she is a proud woman)

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Can that also not be read as the number availing of a medical procedure depends on cost rather than actual demand?

Yes and no. Demand for medical care tends to be price inelastic. In other words, when you bump up the price by a given percentage, demand falls by a much smaller amount. For instance, since 2008, the price of health insurance has gone up by something of the order of 80%. However, coverage only dropped from about 50% of the population to about 46% of the population.

There has been some media comment to the effect that people are staying away from GPs because of cost. That story can be traced back to a telephone poll that (I think) the Irish Medical Times did in 2009, seeking anecdotal views of about 100 GPs. On the other hand, the CSO Health Utilisation release in respect of Q3 2007 states that 69% of adults visited GPs for an average of 2.8 consultations per year. The most up-to-date CSO health utilisation survey found that, in Q3 2010, 74% of adults visited GPs for an average of 3.2 consultations per year. So, whatever about our impressions, the only actual source of data on the topic suggests that more people were visiting GPs more often, two years after the ass fell out of the economy.

Yer man's point is that abortion (just on the basis of the evidence he studied) is not very insensitive to price. An elasticity of -.81 means that you'd expect a 10% increase in price to be associated with an 8% fall in demand. That would still be deemed to be inelastic (as the 10% price increase causes less than a 10% fall in demand.) The contrast is that, while various studies have put various values on price elasticity of health care, it's generally measured at -0.5 or less. In other words, you'd expect a 10% price increase for a necessary medical treatment to cause a fall in demand of 5% or less.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Yes and no. Demand for medical care tends to be price inelastic. In other words, when you bump up the price by a given percentage, demand falls by a much smaller amount. For instance, since 2008, the price of health insurance has gone up by something of the order of 80%. However, coverage only dropped from about 50% of the population to about 46% of the population.

There has been some media comment to the effect that people are staying away from GPs because of cost. That story can be traced back to a telephone poll that (I think) the Irish Medical Times did in 2009, seeking anecdotal views of about 100 GPs. On the other hand, the CSO Health Utilisation release in respect of Q3 2007 states that 69% of adults visited GPs for an average of 2.8 consultations per year. The most up-to-date CSO health utilisation survey found that, in Q3 2010, 74% of adults visited GPs for an average of 3.2 consultations per year. So, whatever about our impressions, the only actual source of data on the topic suggests that more people were visiting GPs more often, two years after the ass fell out of the economy.

Yer man's point is that abortion (just on the basis of the evidence he studied) is not very insensitive to price. An elasticity of -.81 means that you'd expect a 10% increase in price to be associated with an 8% fall in demand. That would still be deemed to be inelastic (as the 10% price increase causes less than a 10% fall in demand.) The contrast is that, while various studies have put various values on price elasticity of health care, it's generally measured at -0.5 or less. In other words, you'd expect a 10% price increase for a necessary medical treatment to cause a fall in demand of 5% or less.

Oh there are far too many percentages/statistics in that for me to cope with at this time of the day :eek:- any chance you could but that in layperson's terms for us tired folks from the Humanities?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh there are far too many percentages/statistics in that for me to cope with at this time of the day :eek:- any chance you could but that in layperson's terms for us tired folks from the Humanities?

Very much so. Basically, health care is one of the last things that people stop paying money for. The more crucial the treatment, the less inclined they are to stop paying. There's other special things about demand for health care - one of them is that people are generally told what treatment to buy by the the person supplying it - but all that's really relevant here is that people generally won't forego medical treatment because of a charge.

An illustration of that is you'll find that Irish people are actually visiting their GPs more now than before the start of our economic troubles in 2008.

What yer man's study is saying is people are more likely not to have an abortion if the price goes, than they would be likely to give up many other medical treatments.

Now, for all that, you'll know that these things just deal in statistical relationships. These kinds of studies are just useful to get some picture of things, but should never be regarded as definitive. Any amount of meanings can be put on the conclusions that he's reached.

Hotblack Desiato

Interesting comment on this opinion piece about the Seanad in the Irish Times.

Several Fine Gael members of the Oireachtas who are opposed to the government’s plan to legislate for abortion are flying to America on a “fact-finding mission” paid for by a pro-life group and the taxpayer. They will be fundraising for the Life Institute and Youth defence while in america.

Senators Fidelma Healy Eames and Paul Bradford have confirmed they will be on the trip organised by Family & Life to coincide with St Patrick’s Day.

Terence Flanagan, a backbench TD, is also scheduled to go but did not return calls seeking comment last week.

Paschal Mooney, a Fianna Fail senator, has been invited but has not decided yet whether he will go.

Healy Eames revealed Family & Life will pay for the trip to New York and Washington, which she said was “a search for truth”.

The elected representatives involved are also planning to promote the Gathering, the government’s tourism initiative

Family & Life are another Capel Street/Nic Mhathúna oufit

Well, at least F H-E's ticket is definitely paid for, wouldn't want her thrown off the plane would we :pac:

Sarky

Couldn't she just grab a surfboard and ride the literal tsunami of a culture of death over? Saves everyone money.

I tweeted Youth Defence to ask their funders to just keep her. No response yet, although considering the Twitter account appears to be staffed by a teenager with esteem issues, I'd say they'll get back to me tomorrow sometime.

Hotblack Desiato

Sarky wrote: »

I tweeted Youth Defence to ask their funders to just keep her.

They're not that stupid.

Peregrinus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh there are far too many percentages/statistics in that for me to cope with at this time of the day :eek:- any chance you could but that in layperson's terms for us tired folks from the Humanities?

I think it comes down to this; the cost of not having an abortion - i..e having a live birth, and then raising the resultant child - vastly exceeds the cost of having one. This remains true even if the cost of having an abortion rises sharply. Thus, you would expect the demand for abortion to be fairly insensitive to the price - no matter how much it costs, people will find the money, because if they don't they will very soon have to find a lot more money (or suffer other economic hardship, like stopping work).

So, of the various factors that influence the degree to which women opt for abortions, price is probably a fairly small one. In countries like the US and the UK, it's generally the case that, the poorer a woman is, the morely likely she is to have recourse to abortion, indicating what what drives her decision is not the cost-impact of having the abortion, but the cost-impact of not having it.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Peregrinus wrote: »

So, of the various factors that influence the degree to which women opt for abortions, price is probably a fairly small one. In countries like the US and the UK, it's generally the case that, the poorer a woman is, the morely likely she is to have recourse to abortion, indicating what what drives her decision is not the cost-impact of having the abortion, but the cost-impact of not having it.

Clearly, what you say is plausible. I just have to point out that the study I linked above concluded

Catholic religion, education and the poverty status of women were found to have no statistically significant impact on the demand for abortions.

You'll understand, I'm not saying that finding is what you'd expect. To an extent, the reason I posted the study is because it conflicts with some of the things that commonsense would suggest.

Morag

Currently it's about a grand to travel to the uk for an abortion all in.
This means women are getting loans, not paying bills, using kids communion money and going to money lenders to try and get the money to go.

So if you have means you can travel for an abortion, the demand is higher as we are seeing an influx of abortion pills into the country and the price for those is aprox 50 - 70 euro, and that is women who can access where to order them from and are willing to break the law importing class A medicines into the country with out a license.

So yes if a medical abortion could be provided for women at the primary point of care with their gp then the numbers of abortions would go up.

Same as providing any service at 1,000 euro or at 150 euro there is an economy of scale but there is a limiter of how women wanting that service.

Currently more Irish women have abortion then have their tonsils out it is the most common surgical procedure for irish women. Doctors for choice reckon it's between 1/10 and `1/15 irish women will have an abortion and this rises to 1/5 if they are a college graduate and have means.

So here in Ireland the more poor you are the more likely you are to have to continue the pregnancy and not as a matter of choice, which does negativity impact on the mental health of the woman.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

Doctors for choice reckon it's between 1/10 and `1/15 irish women will have an abortion and this rises to 1/5 if they are a college graduate and have means.

Would you have a link for the 1/5 figure? (It's easy enough to Google up the one in ten reference, such as http://www.wsm.ie/c/choice-public-meeting-cork-dec2012 but I can't find where the 1/5 figure is documented.)

Lingua Franca

It says 1/15 not 1/5

Turtwig

Lingua Franca wrote: »

It says 1/15 not 1/5

Er it says 1/5 if they're a college graduate.

Lingua Franca

Brainfart!

Morag

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Would you have a link for the 1/5 figure? (It's easy enough to Google up the one in ten reference, such as http://www.wsm.ie/c/choice-public-meeting-cork-dec2012 but I can't find where the 1/5 figure is documented.)

Dr Mary Favier Doctors for Choice at the seminar this week held with the national women's council gave that statement.

https://twitter.com/Doctors4Choice/status/308898559607062528
DoctorsForChoice ‏@Doctors4Choice

Affluent women in Ireland have a rate of 1 in 5.

The whole tweet stream for that event is full of interesting facts.
https://twitter.com/Doctors4Choice


<

Nodin

The Government will enact legislation for the X Case by the end of July.
This is according to a timetable provided by the Government to the Strasbourg-based Council of Europe.
The indication that the bill would be enacted before the summer recess is included in a communication issued this afternoon by the Council of Europe's committee.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0308/375675-government-x-case-legislation/

Rolling ever onward....

lazygal

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0308/375675-government-x-case-legislation/

Rolling ever onward....

The houses will rise mid July. If its not passed by then it'll move into the 'proposed legislation' group for next session. Not good.