Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

krankykitty

Peregrinus wrote: »

Galvasean doesn't say that he's had any complaints from customers about this. Making stuff up is pretty much the opposite of going about this in a level-headed manner.

I don't know where he works, and it's his prerogative not to disclose, but they'd lose me as a customer if I found out about it (providing I was one to start with, of course!!)

Brian Shanahan

Galvasean wrote: »

Actually, apparently some customers did complain. You are right though Peregrinus, I did not state that (as I had not heard from them directly so did not feel it my place to comment on such).

I'd say it anyway. Just don't let on that the "paying customers" are random posters here at boards.ie.

Galvasean

Update:
After having a polite discussion with management on the issue it appears that an amicable solution has been reached.
I do not wish to go into any much more detail on the matter at this time and would like to thank everyone who offered ideas/advice.

robindch

Police launch probe after 100 women admit taking or buying abortion pills in NI:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/police-launch-probe-after-100-women-admit-taking-or-buying-abortion-pills-29121526.html

Morag

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/opus-dei-irish-abortion-reform

Opus Dei accused of lobbying to prevent Irish abortion reform

Leading doctor and politician John Crown says secret Catholic sect is trying to prevent limited abortion being made legal

Not covered by any of the Irish papers not enough room I guess due to Popefactor.

Lingua Franca

robindch wrote: »

Police launch probe after 100 women admit taking or buying abortion pills in NI:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/police-launch-probe-after-100-women-admit-taking-or-buying-abortion-pills-29121526.html

I've seen the signatories and they're going to have a hard time convicting many of them.

Morag

http://soundmigration.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/mass-civil-disobedience-illuminates-role-of-states-in-abortion-discourse/ Has the full statement and names, we live in interesting times.

This tactic of people coming forward has happened before in other countries were it was illegal to have an abortion. It happened first in France Le Nouvel Observateur on April 5, 1971 published the Manifesto of the 343 (as 343 women signed it), which was written by Simone de Beauvoir and stated.

" One million women in France have an abortion every year.
Condemned to secrecy, they have them in dangerous conditions when this procedure, performed under medical supervision, is one of the simplest.
These women are veiled in silence.
I declare that I am one of them. I have had an abortion.
Just as we demand free access to birth control, we demand the freedom to have an abortion."

Two months later Stern Magazine which was based in Hamburg in what was then in West Germany ran it’s cover with images of women and the title on the front page was “Wir haben abgetrieben” “We have aborted” it had the stories of 374 women.

A year later in 1972 the first issue of Ms. magazine carried an “We Have Had Abortions,” statement signed by 50 women, who asked for people to join them in
a “campaign for honesty and freedom”.

And finally 40 years later we have a statement from women who live on the Island of Ireland stating they have broke the law and had an abortion and those who have helped them do it.

ShooterSF

I wonder could we do something similar with our blasphemy law.

robindch

ShooterSF wrote: »

I wonder could we do something similar with our blasphemy law.

Already been done:

http://blasphemy.ie/2009/05/26/join-the-church-of-dermotology/

Our Great/Dear Leaders looked on and smiled which I thought was nice of them.

Galvasean

OT: but has anyone been prosecuted with the BlaSphemy law yet?

Peregrinus

Galvasean wrote: »

OT: but has anyone been prosecuted with the BlaSphemy law yet?

Nobody has been prosecuted for blasphemy in Ireland since 1855, and the new law is set up to ensure, so far as possible, that nobody is likely to be.

They didn't adopt this law because they wanted to prosecute blasphemy; they adopted it because the alternative was holding a referendum to amend the constitution to elminate references to blasphemy. It reflects no credit on them that they chose to adopt the law rather than to hold the referendum, but I think fears of a police crackdown on religious controversy would be a bit exaggerated.

We return you now to regular coverage of tolerant views and civilised discussion about abortion.

Turtwig

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nobody has been prosecuted for blasphemy in Ireland since 1855, and the new law is set up to ensure, so far as possible, that nobody is likely to be.

They didn't adopt this law because they wanted to prosecute blasphemy; they adopted it because the alternative was holding a referendum to amend the constitution to elminate references to blasphemy. It reflects no credit on them that they chose to adopt the law rather than to hold the referendum, but I think fears of a police crackdown on religious controversy would be a bit exaggerated.

We return you now to regular coverage of tolerant views and civilised discussion about abortion.

So basically what you're saying is that it's a foolproof law whereby nobody can possibly get prosecuted. You see, I think the problem here is that Atheists, so far anyway, aren't foolhardy enough. But we should never underestimate the ingenuity of the fool so perhaps some day there will be a prosecution. . .some day.

(Damn! I really should have posted this the day before yesterday. )

Peregrinus

Jernal wrote: »

So basically what you're saying is that it's a foolproof law whereby nobody can possibly get prosecuted.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that nobody has been prosecuted for the past hundred and sixty years or so, and whatever else the passage of the new law points to, it's not a sudden enthusiasm for prosecuting blasphemy.

Of course, if anyone is ever prosecuted it will be outrageous. But I'd save my outrage until that actually happens. In the meantime, there are things that are currently happening that call for outrage now.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Anyone know where I could get some really good halibut?

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Anyone know where I could get some really good halibut?

Ballycotton.

aloyisious

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Anyone know where I could get some really good halibut?

Moore St?

Morag

The presentations from Doctors for Choice from last weeks seminar on Abortion and the lives and health of women have been put up online.

http://www.nwci.ie/news/2013/03/12/abortion-the-lives-and-health-of-women/

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Interesting material. A few bits resonated, and made me think about what does and doesn't help in getting the points across

http://www.nwci.ie/download/pdf/dr_mary_favier_presentation.pdf

For Irish women [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]abortion is a common experience[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][/FONT][/FONT].

This, IMHO, is the key reality that debate should be brought back to time and again.

if you are affluent and/or well educated the abortion rate may be as high as one in five Irish women.

I notice the "may", and the lack of any substatiation. Hence, I suspect she's talking out her arse on this point. And the pain is that it's unnecessary. There is solid evidence that thousands of Irish women choose abortion every year. There's no need for her to undermine that evidence by making stuff up, just because some secret recess in her mind thinks that "smart chicks kill their babies" is a persuasive argument. It's a stupid theme to be introducing, particularly without any evidential basis.

Ash clouds and bad weather on the ferries take on a new meaning on Monday mornings when the distraught woman rings the surgery to see if she still has time to reschedule.

What complete hyperactive horse dung. We have to legislate for abortion, just in case an Icelandic volcano belches? When was the last time these people met someone half rational who disagreed with them about anything at all? Because this kind of crap only gets produced among circles of perfect consensus.

Similarly an asylum seeker must be told that if she travels to the UK for an abortion she may forfeit her asylum application.

Do we need to recap on the result of the citizenship referendum to explain why it is retarded to fly this kite, too?

We, as a conservative male dominated profession have acted to uphold an out of date out of step, church dominated, anti choice viewpoint while pointedly turningour back on the many many women patients who tell us sometimes harrowing stories of their attempts to control their own fertility.

How to stuff your male colleagues, under the cover of "we". The only possible response to this kind of rhetoric is to turn it about. Doctors for Choice, as a female dominated lobby, have displayed an absence of critical judgment in framing their arguments such as will fail to hold the attention of male voters.

In the many talks I have given on this subject in Ireland over the years, I always refer to the [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]overwhelming silence [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][/FONT][/FONT]around the subject of abortion.

To end on a positive, this point is the one that should be center stage. But filling the silence with invention and supposition won't hack it.

Morag

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

How to stuff your male colleagues, under the cover of "we". The only possible response to this kind of rhetoric is to turn it about. Doctors for Choice, as a female dominated lobby

The drs who were there at the seminar for doctors for choice were one woman and two men.

What complete hyperactive horse dung. We have to legislate for abortion, just in case an Icelandic volcano belches?

That was part of breaking down the notion that traveling to the UK for an abortion is simple and straight forward, she also spoke about a woman who was due to travel but her son had to be admitted to hospital and as she was a single parent and the child's only legal guardian she could not leave the country.

An asylum seekers are trapped her unable to access abortion services, there has already been a case of a woman who arrived her who was pregnant due to a rape and was told she could not have an abortion. There has been a rise in illegal abortions here among migrant women.

Vinvent Browne but the question about XCase legislation to 4 of the candidates which were on this evening, was great to see this finally being an election issue.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

The drs who were there at the seminar for doctors for choice were one woman and two men.

Which sort of illustrates the redundancy of her rhetoric.

Morag wrote: »

That was part of breaking down the notion that traveling to the UK for an abortion is simple and straight forward,

But it's too contrived; seriously, that portion of the paper is competely overwrought. It's as if she's trying to create a frenzy, where critical analysis will be driven to the sidelines.

Morag wrote: »

An asylum seekers are trapped her unable to access abortion services

80% Yes vote in the citizenship referendum. How many of them do you think give a toss if an asylum seeker (which is yesterday's issue, anyway) leaves the country and can't come back?

Morag wrote: »

there has already been a case of a woman who arrived her who was pregnant due to a rape and was told she could not have an abortion.

Well, that is the position, isn't it? Legislating for X won't particularly change that, as she'd have to be deemed to be suicidal.

Morag wrote: »

There has been a rise in illegal abortions here among migrant women.

How do you know? Who is counting them? (And have there been any 'legal' abortions here - what exactly do you mean by 'illegal abortions here'?

eviltwin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

(And have there been any 'legal' abortions here - what exactly do you mean by 'illegal abortions here'?

Buying pills online and taking them or maybe resorting to a backstreet abortion. I know a woman who induced an abortion herself at home with a knitting needle, she nearly died as a result. Its only that the UK is so close and relatively easy enough to get to that we don't see more of that.

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

Buying pills online and taking them or maybe resorting to a backstreet abortion. I know a woman who induced an abortion herself at home with a knitting needle, she nearly died as a result. Its only that the UK is so close and relatively easy enough to get to that we don't see more of that.

I worked with Chinese people living in Dublin and several women had family back home send abortion pills to them.

Bannasidhe

A proposed amendment to Stormont's Criminal Justice Bill which would ban terminations in private clinics has failed in the Northern Ireland Assembly.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0312/376380-northern-ireland-stormont-abortion/

Morag

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Which sort of illustrates the redundancy of her rhetoric.But it's too contrived; seriously, that portion of the paper is competely overwrought. It's as if she's trying to create a frenzy, where critical analysis will be driven to the sidelines.

Nope the point was if women are silenced then their Drs should be their advocates and speak up for them and tell the stories.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

80% Yes vote in the citizenship referendum. How many of them do you think give a toss if an asylum seeker (which is yesterday's issue, anyway) leaves the country and can't come back?

Their friends, their children their families.
The point is marginalized women are made to suffer due to the current lack of abortion rights in this country.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Well, that is the position, isn't it? Legislating for X won't particularly change that, as she'd have to be deemed to be suicidal.

Doctors for choice are pro choice and the seminar was not just about X case legislation and the Abortion Rights Campaign is not just for X Case legislation.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

How do you know? Who is counting them? (And have there been any 'legal' abortions here - what exactly do you mean by 'illegal abortions here'?

The drs who they go to, primary point of care and find out they are pregant and don't want to be and then have to tell them they can't help.
The drs they present to afterwards, and the medical staff in hospitals who need to treat them if they need it.

Illegal abortions, the unlawful termination of a pregnancy which a woman can be prosectuted for under the 1861 act.

http://www.thejournal.ie/customs-seize-over-1200-abortion-pills-38742-Oct2010/

These are the ones which the garda are catching, many more get into the country via friends re posting them or parcel hotel arrangements.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

Nope the point was if women are silenced then their Drs should be their advocates and speak up for them and tell the stories.

But what they're doing is ruining potentially good points, by steeping them in mood music.

Morag wrote: »

Their friends, their children their families.

None of whom have votes. Have you considered the point I've made, because your response is unconnected..

Morag wrote: »

The drs who they go to,

The doctors who they go to don't (so far as I know) collate and publish information; there's no basis for the statements being made, other than wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking should be the preserve of the other side of the debate.

Morag wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/customs-seize-over-1200-abortion-pills-38742-Oct2010/

These are the ones which the garda are catching, many more get into the country via friends re posting them or parcel hotel arrangements.

This is another example of how woolly statements ruin perfectly good points. There's certainly evidence of drugs being brought into the country, and used without medical supervision. But there's no particular evidence connecting that to migrants - and its next door to irrelevant as to whether its migrants or not, so there's actually no need to try to pass off supposition as fact.

There's a perfectly sensible and solid case to be made from statements that actually related to known facts - such as the figures on the numbers travelling, and the evidence of illegal drugs importation. Why can't we just stick to the goddamn facts?

Morag

They are trying to give a wider picture about the women they see with out breaching dr patient confidentiality.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

They are trying to give a wider picture about the women they see with out breaching dr patient confidentiality.

No, she's not. She's just making stuff up, and trying to pass it off as fact. She's confusing her ouja-board fueled impression of the situation with evidence. She's not the Messiah, she's a very naughty girl.

Morag

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

No, she's not. She's just making stuff up, and trying to pass it off as fact. She's confusing her ouja-board fueled impression of the situation with evidence. She's not the Messiah, she's a very naughty girl.

:rolleyes:

You may like the facts and figure arguments, but hearts and minds need to be changed to get the 8th amendment repealed and most people to reach them you need the stories of the people effected, which when it comes to abortion it difficult as has been mentioned in this thread before due to stigma.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Morag wrote: »

<..> most people to reach them you need the stories of the people effected<..>

Grand, if that was what she was doing. But what she's mostly doing is making stuff up, or drawing in ludicrous and tenuous links between abortion and volcanic dust clouds, and capping it all by telling the Irish people that banning abortion is one way of getting asylum seekers to leave the place without the need for expensive deportation proceedings. We simply shouldn't feel some obligation to defend any argument, no matter how obviously fallacious and damaging. Her presentation is good in parts, and bad in other parts. However, it's deeply, deeply flawed as a way of reaching anyone who doesn't completely agree with her to begin with. It also provides an opportunity for the other side to find points they can overturn and query.

Morag

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

But what she's mostly doing is making stuff up

I was there at the seminar, all of the drs present spoke about women who were patients who had trouble traveling to access abortion because all the flights were grounded during the ash cloud, I do not think they were making it up. Between 10 and 12 women a week travel, that is the average hard to when flights were grounded.