Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Tipsygypsy

doctoremma wrote: »

Slightly tangential but do any of you guys know if Irish women arriving here in the UK for abortions get any local support, maybe from girls the UK who have experienced it and know what to demand/expect (from a logistics POV) or who offer a bed for the night or something? Or do you feel you get enough info at home?

These folks seem to offer some significant support:


http://www.abortionsupport.org.uk/

doctoremma

Tipsygypsy wrote: »

http://www.abortionsupport.org.uk/

Thanks, had just come across this on my internet searches!

28064212

christmas2012 wrote: »

Oldhippy,You say i talk of facts when there are none , CLEARLY YOU HAVENT READ MY POSTS..YES MISCARRIAGES ARE A RISK AFTER ABORTION..FACT..DONT LIKE IT?IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU SAY,ITS STILL A FACT.

Infection is a risk of abortion - fact.

Replace "abortion" with "giving birth", both of those are still true.

christmas2012 wrote: »

Abortion is an invasive procedure - fact.

So is an appendectomy. Invasive is not automatically a bad word, no matter how often you use it.

christmas2012 wrote: »

Abortion is a painful procedure and you need pain medication (that is weak and doesnt work) - another fact.

Not a fact. Either of them.

christmas2012 wrote: »

if she knew more about the abortion she wouldnt have had it in the first place,as there was no sufficient aftercare.

Wow. Now you're claiming you can read her mind, and that she wouldn't have had the abortion, even though she has told you she doesn't regret it

christmas2012

No i still think abortion for all is not the answer,it is a traumatic experience,and she did get to her gp and got after care,she did have to wait for the anti biotics though..

Wow. Now you're claiming you can read her mind, and that she wouldn't have had the abortion, even though she has told you she doesn't regret it

Stop making naive assumptions,she did tell me she wouldnt go through with such an invasive horrible procedure again..Her words..

oldrnwisr

christmas2012 wrote: »

Oldhippy,You say i talk of facts when there are none , CLEARLY YOU HAVENT READ MY POSTS..YES MISCARRIAGES ARE A RISK AFTER ABORTION..FACT..DONT LIKE IT?IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU SAY,ITS STILL A FACT.

Infection is a risk of abortion - fact.

Abortion is an invasive procedure - fact.

Abortion is a painful procedure and you need pain medication (that is weak and doesnt work) - another fact.


You dont have to like it,but its true.


Old hippy i notice you are getting on the defensive of the pro abortion lobby no matter what truths are put before you.


Thats your problem to deal with,and you should try to manage it in a more mature manner.

You share nothing but a myopic, one-sided experience that you may or may not have witnessed.

Its not one sided,i have shared my views on it,and also my friends,she says she doesnt regret it,but sometimes has her what if moments,but she does regret the traumatic experience,and if she knew more about the abortion she wouldnt have had it in the first place,as there was no sufficient aftercare.

I am not pro or anti abortion per se,so my views are NOT one sided like you have just claimed.

You're still don't seem to understand why you're making such a bad argument. Saying that there is a risk attached to abortion is a pointless statement. It has no explanatory power unless you quantify the risk involved. For example, there is a risk of death in getting a tonsillectomy. Would you advise people not to get one on the basis of risk alone? However, since the risk is 1 in 15000 anyone informed of this would still go through with it. What you are doing is scaremongering. You've now decided to beef up your already fallacious argument with an appeal to fear.

Oh, and there's one point I'd like to clarify/correct from my previous post. While I said previously that there is a recognised risk of subsequent miscarriage following abortion, this risk is exceptionally low and typically observed in less developed healthcare systems.

For example, this study from China found that there was a 1.5% increased risk of miscarriage:

Induced abortion and risk of subsequent miscarriage

while a similar study from America found no link whatsoever:

Induced Abortion and Subsequent Outcome of Pregnancy in a Series of American Women

So what we can say is that yes, there is a risk but that this risk is negligible and not of any practical concern in a western healthcare system.

I feel the need to restate that your comments are deeply unhelpful and do not advance this debate.

28064212

christmas2012 wrote: »

No i still think abortion for all is not the answer

Stop using that phrase. No-one, ever, has claimed "abortion for all".

christmas2012 wrote: »

Stop making naive assumptions,she did tell me she wouldnt go through with such an invasive horrible procedure again..Her words..

Bolded the relevant word. Saying she wouldn't go through with it again is not the same as saying she would never have done it in the first place

Tipsygypsy

[QUOTE=christmas2012;80517576}


Infection is a (small)risk of surgical abortion which is also a risk in the completion of any pregnancy, by natural birth or c-section - there is no way to get a baby/fetus out that doesnt except maybe medical abortion - fact.

Abortion can be an invasive procedure depending on the stage in pregnancy that it occurs, but then, so are many of the methods of birthing at full term ie c-section- fact.

Abortion can in some circumstances, but certainly not always be a painful procedure and you may need pain medication (that is weak and doesnt work - so if you need stronger meds please ask, because doctors and nurses are not psychic) - another fact.


.[/QUOTE]

Fixed your post for you.

You can say it as many times as you like, but the PROVEN fact is that abortions do not lead to future miscarriage.

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

I wish we could set up something like that here. Just having someone to talk to can make such a huge difference. I help run a support group for women and men post abortion and despite the fact our name is given by post abortion counsellors we still have very few members. People are terrified to talk about it face to face even years after the fact. That stigma has to go, we have to make it possible for people to get the help they need without fear.

We were lucky in that organisations like the GLC and various 'lefty' councils (Manchester, Hackney, Lambeth, Glasgow, Haringay, Tower Hamlets etc) turned a blind eye to their spiraling phone bills (as long as the calls were made after 1 p.m) and surge in 'work related' call to Ireland. Volunteers paid their own expenses in going to the airport etc.

It was my experiences as a volunteer (thank you London Borough of Hackney for pretending not to notice) that made me solidly pro-choice. Before that it had been an 'intellectual' thing, meeting these desperate women changed that. Now I am firm in my conviction that every women has a right to determine what happens to her own body. End of story.
Plus, the fact that despite all the cloak and dagger, huge expense, fear of judgement, fear of the procedure - these women still traveled for abortions (meeting the women off Slattery's Coaches was heart breaking*) so we need to ensure that when women have decided - after they have been given access to all of the information - they can have an abortion in safety with full access to after care.


*Slattery's Coaches (Tralee(?) - London via Cork and Rosslare Ferry) was the most (only!) affordable route in the days before Ryanair. The coaches had no toilets, made few stops as they were on a tight deadline and sleep on the ferry was nearly impossible as everyone tried to grab a seat. Plus the alcohol was cheap on the ferry so the smell of vomit when the sea got rough would gag you.

christmas2012

are you putting a plug in or what?ive seen how some abortion clinics and transport agencies linked with abortion clinics operate and its sickening,THEY SHOULD MENTION THEY DONT DO AFTERCARE ITS NOT COST EFFECTIVE,AND GIVE YOU ONE MEASLY PARECETEMOL TABLET,but the first mention of youth defence who dont profit from getting their adverts out is a different story..

hattoncracker

Bannasidhe wrote: »

doctoremma wrote: »

Slightly tangential but do any of you guys know if Irish women arriving here in the UK for abortions get any local support, maybe from girls the UK who have experienced it and know what to demand/expect (from a logistics POV) or who offer a bed for the night or something? Or do you feel you get enough info at home?

I can't speak for now but back in the days when any information on abortion was censored in Ireland there was a large volunteer network in the UK -mainly Irish - who provided information and any support women needed. From basic provision of information to meeting women at airport to accompanying them to the clinic waiting with them, bringing them back to the airport and follow up phone calls to check they were ok.

I don't know if anything like that still exists, and I fear it doesn't. That women are travelling alone and doing this in secrecy and fear of judgement if anyone finds out.

It's petrifying to talk to anyone about it. When I was very young I had a lot of problems with my cycle, got sorted out by going on the pill at 10 for a couple of years, but the pregnancy hormones must have set it off again because I had periods every two weeks after it.

I wouldn't go to the doctor for a year because I was afraid of what would be said to me, because I had a friend who I was close to who told me that it would be karma if I lost all my future babies, called me a murderer and literally abused me via text for a week.. My phone would just keep beeping and beeping with texts of such horrible things.

I now have a lovely doc, she's my age and I nearly cried when she was so nice about it. I'm now on three different medications, an iron supplement and waiting to see a gynae..

Penn

christmas2012 wrote: »

are you putting a plug in or what?ive seen how some abortion clinics and transport agencies linked with abortion clinics operate and its sickening,THEY SHOULD MENTION THEY DONT DO AFTERCARE ITS NOT COST EFFECTIVE,AND GIVE YOU ONE MEASLY PARECETEMOL TABLET,but the first mention of youth defence who dont profit from getting their adverts out is a different story..

Well surely if anything, more legislation and guidelines are needed for the operating procedures and aftercare of abortion clinics. Wouldn't that solve most of the issues you're having?

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

are you putting a plug in or what?ive seen how some abortion clinics and transport agencies linked with abortion clinics operate and its sickening,THEY SHOULD MENTION THEY DONT DO AFTERCARE ITS NOT COST EFFECTIVE,AND GIVE YOU ONE MEASLY PARECETEMOL TABLET,but the first mention of youth defence who dont profit from getting their adverts out is a different story..

They do give pain relief and antibiotics.

christmas2012

They do give pain relief and antibiotics.

They only give you one parecetemol tablet - harldy pain medication,and NO they dont give you antibiotics,i was there i should know about that.

I believe women have a right to know about the painful procedure and the lack of aftercare.

With her an infection set in ,and she had to wait a few days until an irish chemist had that medication stocked..

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

are you putting a plug in or what?ive seen how some abortion clinics and transport agencies linked with abortion clinics operate and its sickening,THEY SHOULD MENTION THEY DONT DO AFTERCARE ITS NOT COST EFFECTIVE,AND GIVE YOU ONE MEASLY PARECETEMOL TABLET,but the first mention of youth defence who dont profit from getting their adverts out is a different story..

christmas - since you haven't answered I'll ask again - did you arrange your friend's abortion?

robindch

christmas2012 wrote: »

[...] call others liars [...]

Sheesh, a guy goes and does a bit of work for a change. And then this.

Just to be crystal clear when I thought I was already crystal clear:

Every post that includes the word "liar" or "lie" or implies that another poster is dishonest or that somebody else might happen to think that somebody else is being dishonest in certain circumstances -- anything to do with any implication that anybody, alive, dead or fictional is being dishonest, or could be dishonest, or could be perceived, accurately or inaccurately as being dishonest -- will be deleted.

If a poster can't discuss a topic without accusing others of being dishonest (or any related trope) then that poster and their posts are best off in some place other than A+A.

eviltwin

Aftercare is standard for women in the uk. Obviously Irish women can't access it. If abortion were legal here then it follows women would be able to have access to proper aftercare and support, it would also help take away the stigma of abortion and that can only be a good thing in helping more women get help.

lazygal

I had to have a c-section to have my baby. I had no choice, the hospital policy for babies in a certain position (breech) is a c-section at 39 weeks, no going into labour, not allowed to try for a vaginal delivery, you are obliged to have invasive abdominal surgery to deliver your child as a woman in my position.

So I've had an invasive procedure that was extremely painful, but I got through with a spinal block and other pain relief. We very much wanted a child and planned for it and is was a joy to carry and have her.


But I have a physical scar from it, as well as some quite dark and negative feelings about how I had to give birth that I won't go into here. But suffice to say, I would NEVER want a woman who didn't want a baby to go through invasive surgery to give birth to a child just because I didn't believe abortion should be offered and that adoption is a super handy alternative. You can get infections after a section-I talked to women who suffered from them after a normal birth too. So infection from procedures related to wanted or unwanted births are a total straw argument and should not form part of the reason not to allow abortion.


It's a bloody f-ing hard thing to carry a child for nine months, have your feet swell, have morning, noon and night sickness, not be able to eat and drink what you like, have to have a major operation and then care for a newborn while still in surgical stockings with a scar and bleeding down below. I would never force a woman to go through it, how dare anyone think a woman shouldn't have the option not to go through with it.

christmas2012

christmas - since you haven't answered I'll ask again - did you arrange your friend's abortion?

We both rang around and looked at different clinics,and decided to use a taxi service that was linked with the clinic so there wouldnt be lots of time wasted searching for the clinic and getting lost..

doctoremma

robindch wrote: »

Just to be crystal clear when I thought I was already crystal clear:

Robin, what's the next option after massive and red?

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

They do give pain relief and antibiotics.

They only give you one parecetemol tablet - harldy pain medication,and NO they dont give you antibiotics,i was there i should know about that.

I believe women have a right to know about the painful procedure and the lack of aftercare.

With her an infection set in ,and she had to wait a few days until an irish chemist had that medication stocked..

No they don't..

Unless it was years ago, maybe?

But you do now, so you don't have to worry about that argument anymore.

eviltwin

hattoncracker wrote: »

It's petrifying to talk to anyone about it. When I was very young I had a lot of problems with my cycle, got sorted out by going on the pill at 10 for a couple of years, but the pregnancy hormones must have set it off again because I had periods every two weeks after it.

I wouldn't go to the doctor for a year because I was afraid of what would be said to me, because I had a friend who I was close to who told me that it would be karma if I lost all my future babies, called me a murderer and literally abused me via text for a week.. My phone would just keep beeping and beeping with texts of such horrible things.

I now have a lovely doc, she's my age and I nearly cried when she was so nice about it. I'm now on three different medications, an iron supplement and waiting to see a gynae..

I'm terrified to talk about it face to face. The one friend I did tell called me a baby killer and she has never spoken to me since. I have my support group I can talk to and I sometimes toy with the idea of telling my close friends but I'm just too scared to be totally honest. I don't know how people will take it and I really don't want them to judge me.

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

We both rang around and looked at different clinics,and decided to use a taxi service that was linked with the clinic so there wouldnt be lots of time wasted searching for the clinic and getting lost..

Christmas, do you think she might have benefited from the experiences of a local girl, who knows what's what/available/acceptable to demand?

hattoncracker

eviltwin wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

It's petrifying to talk to anyone about it. When I was very young I had a lot of problems with my cycle, got sorted out by going on the pill at 10 for a couple of years, but the pregnancy hormones must have set it off again because I had periods every two weeks after it.

I wouldn't go to the doctor for a year because I was afraid of what would be said to me, because I had a friend who I was close to who told me that it would be karma if I lost all my future babies, called me a murderer and literally abused me via text for a week.. My phone would just keep beeping and beeping with texts of such horrible things.

I now have a lovely doc, she's my age and I nearly cried when she was so nice about it. I'm now on three different medications, an iron supplement and waiting to see a gynae..

I'm terrified to talk about it face to face. The one friend I did tell called me a baby killer and she has never spoken to me since. I have my support group I can talk to and I sometimes toy with the idea of telling my close friends but I'm just too scared to be totally honest. I don't know how people will take it and I really don't want them to judge me.

I have one best friend since I was 8 and I can never tell her.. she would disown me.. I'm pulling away from her subconsciously because I know I can't rely on her.

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

We both rang around and looked at different clinics,and decided to use a taxi service that was linked with the clinic so there wouldnt be lots of time wasted searching for the clinic and getting lost..

Is that a yes - You helped arranged this abortion?

Do you not think that perhaps you feel some responsibility for helping your friend choose a clinic where she had a negative experience?

May I ask was money a large factor in deciding to use that particular clinic?

OldNotWIse

Tipsygypsy wrote: »

Christmas2012, first of all I am really sorry for your friend, it sounds like she had a really hard time. Im sure it was made even harder by the fact that she had to travel to England to go through it, it would have been so much better for her is she'd been able to see a specialist in Ireland, so she could go back to get further medication if she needed it. What a pity her Doctor had a long waiting time too, and that the pharmacy couldnt order in the medication she needed quickly, thats pretty unusual, they normally stay pretty well stocked. Of course none of these issues are anything to do with the actual procedure. You've said she felt like she was being gutted from the inside out, well that sounds horrendous and certainly nothing like any of the first hand experiences I've ever heard. Especially in an abortion under 3 months, where the fetus is only 2-3 inches in size. It sounds like she had a really bad experiance. Its wonderful though that, as you said earlier, she doesn't regret it.

I would like you to bear in mind though, that the experience that you describe (as a second hand teller) is very very very different to what almost everyone else (telling their first hand storiees) describes, and that is why its important for you to understand that when you go on and on (as you have done - it is mentioned in most of your posts in here) about the one paracetamol and the no antibiotics and the horrendous pain, you are scaring people who might be in the process of making a very hard decision. You're scaring them and proclaiming that this is how abortions are, when in fact, it generally is not.

Christmas was not saying that abortions are like this for everyone though, simply passing on information which is just as valid as someone else saying "oh I had an abortion and it was great".

18AD

christmas2012 wrote: »

are you putting a plug in or what?ive seen how some abortion clinics and transport agencies linked with abortion clinics operate and its sickening,THEY SHOULD MENTION THEY DONT DO AFTERCARE ITS NOT COST EFFECTIVE,AND GIVE YOU ONE MEASLY PARECETEMOL TABLET,but the first mention of youth defence who dont profit from getting their adverts out is a different story..

Again. An argument for better aftercare and medicine. Not an anti-abortion argument. It's anti poor support systems.

Your premise is some abortion clinics are crap.
It doesn't follow that all are crap.

And that's pretty important information. Weed out the poor services.

But again, this isn't an anti-abortion argument.

Sin City

Have we gone a bit bias now in the last few pages here, just focusing all on the mother and forgetting about the ickle fetus developing inside her?

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

We both rang around and looked at different clinics,and decided to use a taxi service that was linked with the clinic so there wouldnt be lots of time wasted searching for the clinic and getting lost..

I don't know how long ago its been since this happened but I was given names of clinics from my local family planning clinic. They told me they were happy with all the clinics on the list and that they were all above board.

If people are just taking numbers out of phone books or off the net its risky. You're friend was unlucky.

doctoremma

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Christmas was not saying that abortions are like this for everyone though

I guess you missed the repeated list of FACTS being posted (Clue: none of them are facts).

OldNotWIse wrote: »

which is just as valid as someone else saying "oh I had an abortion and it was great".

Who has said this?

Bannasidhe

Sin City wrote: »

Have we gone a bit bias now in the last few pages here, just focusing all on the mother and forgetting about the ickle fetus developing inside her?

Think of it as more of a re-balancing where the focus has moved away from the ickle fetus- where it is normally locked in - and back to the woman's whose actual body the ickle fetus is in.