Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Lingua Franca

Counsel for hospital says sorry someone wrote on medical notes but it was just to highlight entry, no material change

Hospital: no retrospective interference with records, internal investigation not involved

- this account differs from the evidence provided by a staff midwife yesterday

Counsel for Praveen: there are 'a flurry of retrospective notes' made in records, recorded as such, but need explanation

Coroner tells inquest: 'Seems unusual to write notes in medical records 2 weeks after event & when Ms Halappanavar had died.'

Nodin

This waiting for a risk to the life of the mother bit just comes across in my wee brain as feckin lunacy, tbh.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

This waiting for a risk to the life of the mother bit just comes across in my wee brain as feckin lunacy, tbh.

Indeed.

Tis like saying we should only control guns when the bullet they just fired is in all probability about to kill the person it is fired at -allowing 'ah sure I aimed for his leg, how was I to know there was a major artery there' as a recognised defense.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Lingua Franca wrote: »

- Indeed. And it's disgraceful that it's not legal to perform a termination on grounds of poor prospect for both foetus and pregnant woman.

That's not what that says.

Nodin wrote: »

This waiting for a risk to the life of the mother bit just comes across in my wee brain as feckin lunacy, tbh.

Perhaps, but that's going to require a referendum to change.

rainbow kirby

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Perhaps, but that's going to require a referendum to change.

If a referendum on that didn't pass, then I will emigrate to have my kids as this country will have proven that it is just too fcuked up to put up with any more.

Lingua Franca

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

That's not what that says.

Well spotted, you! That was my own opinion which is why it wasn't bolded. Nothing gets past you, does it?

Lingua Franca

Fergal Bowers ‏@FergalBowers 37m
Dr Astbury tells inquest she did not record #Savita request for termination on Tues, Oct 23. Does not recall other requests

Fergal Bowers ‏@FergalBowers 12m
Dr Astbury says the existence of a foetal heart meant no termination of pregnancy was permissible

Morag

They have to wait until there is a 51% risk to the life of the woman before they will preform a D&C a termination of pregnancy/abortion. There is no legal right to an abortion as part of healthcare in safe guard the health of a woman she must be at a risk of dying.

Following the coverage for the last two days has been bleak.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Well spotted, you! That was my own opinion which is why it wasn't bolded. Nothing gets past you, does it?

Absolutely. I’m always willing to help people see where their opinions part company with reality.

Morag wrote: »

There is no legal right to an abortion as part of healthcare in safe guard the health of a woman she must be at a risk of dying.

This is, indeed, part of the issue. Although, bear in mind, the issue being raised there is about the ability to terminate a foetus with a low chance of viability, independently of the woman’s health/life considerations. In other words, it has to do with allowing a doctor to make a judgment “we’re all wasting our time here”, and terminating the pregnancy just for that reason.

Lingua Franca

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Absolutely. I’m always willing to help people see where their opinions part company with reality.

Then please do. Any minute now.

Galvasean

Bannasidhe wrote: »

More dodgy do-ings.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/anger-over-antiabortion-groups-use-of-oireachtas-name-29185714.html

Fidelma Healy-Eames went. I can imagine what the report was like:

"...in AMERICA they have these things called ABORTIONS... where a big PENIS comes out and FORNICATES de wee babee and then it DIES from VIDGEOgames..."

Sarky

Bloody hell, this inquest is unearthing some very unpleasant stuff.

Morag

Sarky wrote: »

Bloody hell, this inquest is unearthing some very unpleasant stuff.

Stuff which some of us have known about the procedures and polices in maternity units but it has been pretty impossible to get copies of those polices and procedures and usually those who have been effected by them are to upset and distraught to go public and force investigations or are put under pressure by family not to do so.

Nodin

Morag wrote: »

They have to wait until there is a 51% risk to the life of the woman before they will preform a D&C a termination of pregnancy/abortion. .....
.

Measured on the reliable "about to go into could be about to die mode" detector, no doubt.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

Measured on the reliable "about to go into could be about to die mode" detector, no doubt.

Wait Nurse - the about to go into could be about to die-o-meter is only registering a 50.5% probability. We cannot act. Stand down everyone.

revz

From Fergal Bowers (RTE health correspondent, at the inquest, on his twitter):
"Coroner Dr Ciaran McLoughlin has told the inquest he has never seen so many retrospective notes in records before. #Savita"

Some very confusing statements going on here

Delirium

Recent tweets from Bowers:

Nurse midwife manager tells inquest she is sorry for telling #Savita termination not possible 'this is a Catholic country'.

Link to tweet

Midwife Ann Maria Burke says 'Catholic' comment was not meant as hurtful. It followed #Savita saying she was from India & a Hindu

Link to tweet

StudentDad

The bit that's sickening me is the statement that the Dr. didn't have the notes when she was doing her rounds. That's a fairly lame excuse. She is a qualified doctor? Sounds a bit like a primary school excuse, 'sorry teacher, the dog ate my homework.'

SD

robindch

^^^ More on that:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/midwife-manager-regrets-using-catholic-country-remark-to-savita-halappanavar-1.1355895

Midwife wrote:

It was not said in the context to offend her. I’m sorry how it came across. It does sound very bad now but at the time I didn’t mean it that way [...] It was the law of the land and there was two referendums where the Catholic church was pressing the buttons. I shouldn’t have said it but it came out the wrong way.

UDP

I have to call BS on the coroners' remark after the nurse admitted she said about the "catholic country".

Coroner says 'Catholic' remark went around the world and people need to know Irish public hospitals do not have a religious line

All you have to do is look around nearly every hospital at the crosses and religious crap up on walls to know that this is a bs statement - not to mention probably most wards are named after a saint and their ethics committees are often religiously influenced.
https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/321993914246635522

GCU Flexible Demeanour

revz wrote: »

From Fergal Bowers (RTE health correspondent, at the inquest, on his twitter):
"Coroner Dr Ciaran McLoughlin has told the inquest he has never seen so many retrospective notes in records before. #Savita"

Some very confusing statements going on here

I'd guess that Galway University Hospital isn't the happiest workplace at present.

UDP wrote: »

All you have to do is look around nearly every hospital at the crosses and religious crap up on walls to know that this is a bs statement - not to mention probably most wards are named after a saint and their ethics committees are often religiously influenced.

Very fair point; religion is embedded in both our schools and our hospitals. While the specific reference to the Catholic Church is gone, our Constitution still invokes the Blessed Trinity as the ultimate source of legitimate authority.

That said, the testimony that the midwife was trying to explain (awkwardly) why State law prohibits abortion is reasonable.

Kiwi in IE

The midwife should not be having to explain why she made the factual statement that Ireland is a 'Catholic country' and therefore Catholicism influences law, including abortion law. Rather the government should be having to explain why, in 2013, Ireland is a 'Catholic country'!

Kiwi in IE

The midwife has reportedly said, in an attempt to explain the 'Catholic country' comment, that it "Sounds terrible now". It does sound terrible now, and it sounded terrible then. It is terrible, and unfortunately it is also true.

Morag

In terms of reproduction rights and healthcare for as long as the 8th amendment is in place we are catholic country.

StudentDad

Morag wrote: »

In terms of reproduction rights and healthcare for as long as the 8th amendment is in place we are catholic country.

Only when we have a total separation of church and state will this banana republic be a TRUE Republic. A country where people can live their lives free from religious interference.

SD

Kiwi in IE

Morag wrote: »

In terms of reproduction rights and healthcare for as long as the 8th amendment is in place we are catholic country.

Also as long as the majority of state funded schools continue to be run by the Catholic church, the legal definition of a family only includes a married man and woman, not a cohabiting couple or a gay couple, our tax money is used to provide 'communion grants', so Catholic parents can buy miniature white wedding dresses for small children doing catholic rituals etc, etc, etc, we remain a catholic country!

Icepick

Two quotes from the inquiry stand out.

What kind of mother am I, waiting for my baby's heart to stop?

It's a Catholic thing

aloyisious

Has the inquest been given the identity of the doctor whom the consultant alleges had Savita's Patient History Notes, thus preventing her from becoming aware of the changes in Savita's health?

I take note of the words used by the consultant in response to the question about the sensitivity etc of the "catholic country" reply to Savita, so much of a failure to show sensitivity to both Savita's widower and parents. I guess her legal rep advised her on what words to use in response so as to avoid a hint of legal admission of fault.

Kiwi in IE

I find it quite absurd that the midwife is being somewhat vilified for making that comment. The coroner stated "that comment has been all around the world". If the Irish people generally find it embarrassing when international attention is drawn directly to the states observance of Catholicism, why does the state representing the Irish people not cease to observe it?

jill_valentine

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The midwife has reportedly said, in an attempt to explain the 'Catholic country' comment, that it "Sounds terrible now". It does sound terrible now, and it sounded terrible then. It is terrible, and unfortunately it is also true.

Indeed. And I agree with what you said, she should not be vilified.

Her statement was miserably, and perhaps lethally, true.