Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Nodin

aloyisious wrote: »

..............

Edit: on a line with this, has anyone seen/read about a proposal for any pregnant woman claiming she was feeling suicidal because of it and wanted the pregnancy terminated, said proposal that the woman must face a board of two (2) doctors and four (4) Psychiatrists to evaluate her. This sound's like a deliberate act of stacking the deck/stringing out the ultimate decision to avoid going along with the woman's wishes. To me such a panel may as well consist of two Bishops and four Cardinals, just keeping things "status quo".

The Sunday Times reports that Labour ministers have rejected the draft legislation and branded it "unworkable" following the inclusion of a plan that would force suicidal women to be assessed by six doctors before being granted a termination.

The document, which was drawn up by the Health Minister,
James Reilly, recommends a panel of two obstetricians and four psychiatrists to carry out the assessments.

It is believed senior Labour members are
looking over the draft bill to see if a solution can be found before Tuesday
when the bill is due to go before Cabinet.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/abortion-bill-not-about-changing-the-law-592002.html

From RTE-

It is understood that an initial draft suggests that the opinions of six consultants will be required to certify a termination in cases where suicide poses a threat to the life of the mother.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0421/383613-abortion/

aloyisious

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

A panel of six does seem excessive, and I'd suggest chiefly reflects the problem of getting any proposal to legislate for the suicide ground past Fine Gael.

However, in approaching the issue, is it correct to describe a compulsion to suicide as a "wish"? IIRC, we've had posts on the suicide issue on this thread. If anything emerged from that, I think it was some level of recognitiion that, while suicide could be a perfectly rational response to a particular situation, it could also be evidence of mental illness. The suicide ground, if we take it seriously, simply is complex and is unlikely to be resolved by seeing it only as a free agent expressing a wish.

By wish, I meant that of termination of her pregnancy, not suicide :eek:

Re the Irish Examiner report on the story, again, eek: The Minister, a doctor, coming up with proposals for legislation, under which further "guidelines" would be set up for doctors. We've just seen what guidelines set up for doctors can do!

Bannasidhe

'It is understood that an initial draft suggests that the opinions of six consultants will be required to certify a termination in cases where suicide poses a threat to the life of the mother.'

One of whom must be a peri-natal psychiatrist of which there are a total of three in the entire country all based in the greater Dublin area.

Here is what one of those three has to say about suicide and mental health in pregnancy.

In his professional life, Dr McCarthy has come across pregnant women who have died by suicide and women who have threatened to take their own lives.

He says pregnant women are no more likely to have mental health difficulties in pregnancy than the general population.

Some might find this surprising given the stresses, physical and emotional, which are well known in pregnancy.

There is a “myth”, he says, that women have fewer mental health problems in pregnancy and that can lead to post-natal depression afterwards.

Neither is it true, he says, as sometimes claimed, that no woman would kill themselves in pregnancy nor want to kill themselves in pregnancy...

... “vast majority” of women who are so distressed that they want to go to Britain for abortion will do so without consulting a psychiatrist.

Dr McCarthy believes introducing legislation will not change that fact because a woman who is in that level of distress will not wait for the judgment of two psychiatrists and an obstetrician before going to Britain for an abortion.

“The only circumstances in the short term where this is going to present is in the X case where somebody is in the care of the State and therefore cannot travel freely. Those, again, will be rare,” he explains.

...He is dismissive of those who think even trained psychiatrists will be prey to manipulative women who will feign a threat of suicide to get an abortion.
Dr McCarthy points out that psychiatrists regularly see people who threaten to kill themselves if a certain course of action is not taken.
“We assess people regularly in all sorts of situations who are very distressed. We see people trying to manipulate us. We see this all the time. We see people telling us they are psychotic because they are trying to avoid a criminal trial. We are almost represented as being naive in that way.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/psychiatry-of-pregnancy-1.953415?page=2

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It seems to me to be excessive, unworkable in practical terms, possibly expensive and another 'Irish' solution.

I'd say it's quite possibly all of those things. I thought I'd put it plainly, so I'll try putting it sideways. The only politically workable proposal is one that's unworkable.

robindch wrote: »

I'm glad they picked a number that won't result in a tie.

In all seriousness, do we know that it would work on the basis of a vote?

aloyisious wrote: »

By wish, I meant that of termination of her pregnancy, not suicide.

Yes, I understood that. My point is that a suicidal compulsion may be sign of mental illness, and reduced capacity to make a decision. What I was driving at is that you wouldn't necessarily grant the wishes of someone who hasn't the mental capacity to make a choice.

Edit: Incidently, in some circumstances, suicide could be a perfectly reasonable choice. I'm thinking of that recent case where a woman with a profoundly disabling disease wanted to end her life before it become utterly unbearable.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

... “vast majority” of women who are so distressed that they want to go to Britain for abortion will do so without consulting a psychiatrist.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/psychiatry-of-pregnancy-1.953415?page=2

It's not often that a trick cyclist gives such sane and practical assessments. I've no doubt the man is right - no-one is going to delay over a procedure requiring six, five, four or three doctors if they can skip across the water where a rubber-stamp procedure already operates efficiently. Meanwhile, we'll still all be here debating shades of meaning without any expectation that our domestic practice and laws should co-incide.

To be honest, I think these are all symptoms of a wider issue in our political community. It starts with our Constitution being written half in Irish, and that's the important half. If your basic law is founded on a delusion that deep, it hard to ever get people to see it as anything more than an aspirational document.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

To be honest, I think these are all symptoms of a wider issue in our political community. It starts with our Constitution being written half in Irish, and that's the important half. If your basic law is founded on a delusion that deep, it hard to ever get people to see it as anything more than an aspirational document.

To be clear - I think the legislation specifically called for by the X Referendum is, on the whole, rather pointless.

But it is nonetheless vital it is passed as a situation where the electorate orders government via referenda to legislate for whatever but is ignored for 20 years is ridiculous. That is what makes a mockery of our so-called democracy not the fact that the Constitution consists of an Irish version and an English translation - which is not the same as 'half in Irish' - all of it is in Irish with all of it translated into English.
I am not sure what you mean by 'the important half' tbh - the Irish version takes precedence over the English version when the intent of the framers is being discussed/debated.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

To be clear - I think the legislation specifically called for by the X Referendum is, on the whole, rather pointless.

But it is nonetheless vital it is passed as a situation where the electorate orders government via referenda to legislate for whatever but is ignored for 20 years is ridiculous.

I'd agree. I think the main benefit in publishing legislation on X is to identify just how pointless it is. For instance, it might make absolutely no difference to the Savita Halappanavar case, as legal drafters may find that they have to make the "substantive risk" concept even more "substantive", as it were, and remove any possible discretion. But at least publishing legislation will make that clear.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is what makes a mockery of our so-called democracy not the fact that the Constitution consists of an Irish version and an English translation - which is not the same as 'half in Irish' - all of it is in Irish with all of it translated into English.
I am not sure what you mean by 'the important half' tbh - the Irish version takes precedence over the English version when the intent of the framers is being discussed/debated.

Yup, I know that the text is in both Irish and English. I don't agree that having the authoritative version in Irish isn't making a mockery of democracy. I've felt this way for a while - and, exactly as I've said, I think the abortion issue only demonstrates a small subset of the problem caused by having that baloney right at the heart of the Constitution. If the Constitution is an Irish language enthusiasts' circle jerk, why would you expect it to make sense in any other respect?

In fact, I think this is an issue who's time has come. So I've started a thread elsewhere on the topic.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84256006#post84256006

lazygal

The Black Oil wrote: »

Was listening briefly to the radio yesterday and some guy, a TD, I think, said we should hold more Oireachtas hearings...

That was Sean Fleming, a particularly stupid TD.

swampgas

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

To be honest, I think these are all symptoms of a wider issue in our political community. It starts with our Constitution being written half in Irish, and that's the important half. If your basic law is founded on a delusion that deep, it hard to ever get people to see it as anything more than an aspirational document.

Interesting point.

I think Irish people, culturally, are used to thinking in terms of aspirational documents. Catholicism is full of rules, from the ten commandments to biblical exhortations to give everything you have to the poor, which are rarely treated as anything more than symbolic or vaguely aspirational.

I think the same is the case with the status of the Irish language - the vast majority of the Irish people have no intention of learning or using it, yet they still like the idea that it is our official national language, with its status protected by law.

The same seems to apply to the law - we seem to prefer to ignore and work around difficult laws rather than confront the issues head on. We certainly seem very willing to ignore laws that don't suit us, maybe for historical reasons.

I think something similar is going on in the Irish psyche with abortion - people think that it would be ideal if abortions were never needed, so don't have a problem with the constitution effectively declaring that abortions are not needed. And if someone does need an abortion, all they have to do is take a quick trip to England. What's the problem?

The phrase "an Irish solution to an Irish problem" seems to encapsulate this bizarre attitude we have to the law. Maybe Irish people need to get their heads around the fact that the constitution is a practical document, the basis of all our laws, and not a quasi-religious list of unachievable ideals that we aspire to.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

swampgas wrote: »

<...> people think that it would be ideal if abortions were never needed, so don't have a problem with the constitution effectively declaring that abortions are not needed. And if someone does need an abortion, all they have to do is take a quick trip to England. What's the problem?

The phrase "an Irish solution to an Irish problem" seems to encapsulate this bizarre attitude we have to the law. Maybe Irish people need to get their heads around the fact that the constitution is a practical document, the basis of all our laws, and not a quasi-religious list of unachievable ideals that we aspire to.

I'll admit it's only opinion, as I've really no idea why (for the sake of argument) Fine Gael TDs decide to get so energised on this issue, and not on others. But what you've said there is much as I'd see it.

jill_valentine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm amazed they didn't decide everyone with a relevant medical qualification who practices with a 100km radius must sign off on it.

- and Mystic Meg, yer man down the pub who's good with this stuff, the Pope, and Liam Neeson.

Then all you have to do is answer the gatekeeper's three riddles correctly, and he'll let you past him, to the ferry terminal.

stanley 2

jill_valentine wrote: »

- and Mystic Meg, yer man down the pub who's good with this stuff, the Pope, and Liam Neeson.

Then all you have to do is answer the gatekeeper's three riddles correctly, and he'll let you past him, to the ferry terminal.

think off it like if you have conjoined twins sharing some vital organs but only one can survive and then you would want some profesionals to decide which one is to be sacrificed for the greater good

lazygal

stanley 2 wrote: »

think off it like if you have conjoined twins sharing some vital organs but only one can survive and then you would want some profesionals to decide which one is to be sacrificed for the greater good

Decisions like this are already made. The difference is, the parents are involved in the decision, unlike pregnant women who have no say in many antenatal decisions.
Would you be willing to remain joined to another adult or child for nine months, with possible long or short term health issues, to preserve his or her right to life?

lazygal

jill_valentine wrote: »

- and Mystic Meg, yer man down the pub who's good with this stuff, the Pope, and Liam Neeson.

Then all you have to do is answer the gatekeeper's three riddles correctly, and he'll let you past him, to the ferry terminal.

Unless the AG of the day decides to throw a spanner in the works.

Nodin

Reports suggesting a new law on abortion could require two obstetricians and four psychiatrists, one of whom must be a perinatal psychiatrist, to assess the suicidal risk of pregnant women was “completely unworkable”, said Dr Anthony McCarthy of Holles Street maternity hospital.

Women in such a distressed state may not even want to tell their story to two psychiatrists let alone six. They may even have to go through an appeals panel. “My first question to any woman in that situation would be ‘why are you putting yourself through that process we are obviously putting so many hoops in the way of you that either we don’t believe you or we’re going to sabotage you anyway’,” he said.

Meanwhile Dr Reilly has said suicidal women seeking an abortion would not be interviewed by six medical people. “I want to allay any misapprehension people have it is not the case nor will it ever be the case that a woman who is in a disrtressed case with suicideal ideation would be subjected to an interview by six different medical p[eople either simuktanesouly or individually. That was never going o be the case."

(their dire spelling throughout, not mine)
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/abortion-proposals-are-a-sick-joke-and-abusive-psychiatrist-1.1368429?page=2

So a woman goes to an interview by a psychiatrist(s) who then report to the Consultants.....?

Nodin

lazygal wrote: »

Unless the AG of the day decides to throw a spanner in the works.

....by playing the "killing de baybees" card, classically leading to a "Rancour & Referendum" round.

Lingua Franca

stanley 2 wrote: »

think off it like if you have conjoined twins sharing some vital organs but only one can survive and then you would want some profesionals to decide which one is to be sacrificed for the greater good

but what if one of the babbys was the wrong colour?



You have yet to explain what the "wrong colour" is in any of your drive-by sound bites.

lazygal

Lingua Franca wrote: »

but what if one of the babbys was the wrong colour?



You have yet to explain what the "wrong colour" is in any of your drive-by sound bites.

The poster's also concerned about girl babbys.

robindch

Dr Anthony McCarthy is singularly unimpressed with the reported legislation:

http://www.thejournal.ie/anthony-mccarthy-sick-joke-abortion-panel-879508-Apr2013

Anthony McCarthy wrote:

When I first heard it yesterday I thought it was almost a sick joke.

Doctor Strange

The whole panel of 6 doctors thing got my blood boiling. It's so the spineless little [people] in the Dail can kowtow to the lunatic fringe that keep bleating on about oppression, and at the same time turn to Europe and say "See, we legislated!". I'd almost want them to go through with it, purely to see how fast the ECHR would strike down upon our legislators with their full power. But that would waste valuable time.

Beruthiel

robindch wrote: »

Dr Anthony McCarthy is singularly unimpressed with the reported legislation

An utter joke.
Can you imagine how long that would take to organise.
And seriously, six? wtf?
You'd have given birth/topped yourself or gone to the UK by the time that lot sorted things out.

swampgas

I was wondering if the panel of six idea was to provide safety in numbers to the members of the panel. Maybe there are medical people who might find themselves on such a panel pushing to dilute the responsibility for any abortions they might approve over as many people as possible, as any such approvals could be very contentious.

Pure speculation of course, it might simply be FG trying to appease the anti-abortion hardliners.

Morag

Dr Peadar O'Grady who is a psychiatrist and a memeber of @Doctors4Choice is due to be on VinB this evening, this should be interesting.

Doublelime

I'm Muslim (born here, and I'm not a terrorist....or am I? ) and I think abortion is bad. But I know Ireland is a catholic country and I know according to the bible you should not allow abortion etc. I think we should just follow what the bible says, after all most of the people who live here are Christians/roman Catholics (idk).

swampgas

Doublelime wrote: »

I'm Muslim (born here, and I'm not a terrorist....or am I? ) and I think abortion is bad. But I know Ireland is a catholic country and I know according to the bible you should not allow abortion etc. I think we should just follow what the bible says, after all most of the people who live here are Christians/roman Catholics (idk).

Do you think you should be forced to convert from Islam to Christianity, seeing as most people in Ireland say they are Christians, and you seem to be suggesting that we should all live our lives by the religious values of the majority?

That's kinda what you seem to be saying ... doesn't really make sense, does it?

PogMoThoin

Doublelime wrote: »

I'm Muslim (born here, and I'm not a terrorist....or am I? ) and I think abortion is bad. But I know Ireland is a catholic country and I know according to the bible you should not allow abortion etc. I think we should just follow what the bible says, after all most of the people who live here are Christians/roman Catholics (idk).

Nonsense, we can't be basing our laws on a work of fiction. Laws have to be based on what the majority of people want, regardless of their ethnicity

MagicMarker

Doublelime wrote: »

I'm Muslim (born here, and I'm not a terrorist....or am I? ) and I think abortion is bad. But I know Ireland is a catholic country and I know according to the bible you should not allow abortion etc. I think we should just follow what the bible says, after all most of the people who live here are Christians/roman Catholics (idk).

Please tell me you're trying to be funny? Have you actually read any of the stupid shite that's written in the bible?

Doublelime

swampgas wrote: »

Do you think you should be forced to convert from Islam to Christianity, seeing as most people in Ireland say they are Christians, and you seem to be suggesting that we should all live our lives by the religious values of the majority?

That's kinda what you seem to be saying ... doesn't really make sense, does it?

What I'm trying to say is that we have to all agree with the most popular religion in the country. I can't say we should get half I Friday off to Chilax (Friday is the equivilant to Sunday in Islam), simply because Ireland is a catholic country. How are you all hating on the bible it's your holy book! I don't complain about things like why is saint Patrick's day a bank holiday, because that's why way is has been for a long time and that's the way it has worked for a long time. All the peo

Sarky

Doublelime wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is that we have to all agree with the most popular religion in the country.

No, we don't. You'll find that the nicest places to live are usually where most people pay no attention to religion of any sort.

Doublelime

swampgas wrote: »

Do you think you should be forced to convert from Islam to Christianity, seeing as most people in Ireland say they are Christians, and you seem to be suggesting that we should all live our lives by the religious values of the majority?

That's kinda what you seem to be saying ... doesn't really make sense, does it?

What I'm trying to say is that we have to all agree with the most popular religion in the country. I can't say we should get half I Friday off to Chilax (Friday is the equivilant to Sunday in Islam), simply because Ireland is a catholic country. How are you all hating on the bible it's your holy book! I don't complain about things like why is saint Patrick's day a bank holiday, because that's why way is has been for a long time and that's the way it has worked for a long time. All the people saying abortion is good should just give up because abortion will never be allowed, simply because Ireland is a catholic country. We can't change every damn law for a small percentage of people. We won't be changing gay marriage laws any time soon either. Thank god for that.

MagicMarker

Doublelime wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is that we have to all agree with the most popular religion in the country. I can't say we should get half I Friday off to Chilax (Friday is the equivilant to Sunday in Islam), simply because Ireland is a catholic country. How are you all hating on the bible it's your holy book! I don't complain about things like why is saint Patrick's day a bank holiday, because that's why way is has been for a long time and that's the way it has worked for a long time. All the people saying abortion is good should just give up because abortion will never be allowed, simply because Ireland is a catholic country. We can't change every damn law for a small percentage of people. We won't be changing gay marriage laws any time soon either. Thank god for that.

Abortion is already allowed, in certain circumstances, and eventually it will be more widely available. Gay marriage will also eventually be legalised. It's not a question of if, it's just a question of when.