Abortion/ Note Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Lingua Franca · 22-04-2013 11:36pm

Doublelime wrote: »

How are you all hating on the bible it's your holy book!

Have you noticed which forum you're posting in?

aloyisious · 23-04-2013 8:02am

Doublelime wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is that we have to all agree with the most popular religion in the country. I can't say we should get half I Friday off to Chilax (Friday is the equivilant to Sunday in Islam), simply because Ireland is a catholic country. How are you all hating on the bible it's your holy book! I don't complain about things like why is saint Patrick's day a bank holiday, because that's why way is has been for a long time and that's the way it has worked for a long time. All the people saying abortion is good should just give up because abortion will never be allowed, simply because Ireland is a catholic country. We can't change every damn law for a small percentage of people. We won't be changing gay marriage laws any time soon either. Thank god for that.

As pointed out above, this is not the religious thread or forum, but..... most of the Christians here are not at odds with the bible. It's more that they're at odds with the senior clergy within the Christian churches here for lying to their congregations of faithful, and to their God.

The Irish Republic over the past few decades became, in effect, a RC theocracy with ultimate loyalty being due to what was taught in the classrooms by Christian Brothers and in the churches by priests. It's populace put more faith in what those men said and taught it, it became blindfolded and submissive to fellow humans. What you see as disrespect to the bible is not so, it's the freeing-up of peoples minds to the reality of life.

kylith · 23-04-2013 8:28am

Doublelime wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is that we have to all agree with the most popular religion in the country. I can't say we should get half I Friday off to Chilax (Friday is the equivilant to Sunday in Islam), simply because Ireland is a catholic country. How are you all hating on the bible it's your holy book! I don't complain about things like why is saint Patrick's day a bank holiday, because that's why way is has been for a long time and that's the way it has worked for a long time. All the people saying abortion is good should just give up because abortion will never be allowed, simply because Ireland is a catholic country. We can't change every damn law for a small percentage of people. We won't be changing gay marriage laws any time soon either. Thank god for that.

Firstly, it's not 'our' holy book. Most people on this forum are atheists.
Secondly, the bible's not too concerned about abortion. Attitudes range from 'meh, it's grand', to 'Dude, that wasn't cool. Pay a token fine'.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html
Thirdly, the idea that Ireland is predominantly Catholic is one I find dubious. If 80% of people tick Catholic on the census, but only 4% attend mass on a regular basis, can you really call the 76% who don't Catholic? If I haven't gone to a meeting since 1992 am I still a Girl Guide?

Nodin · 23-04-2013 12:13pm

Doublelime wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is that we have to all agree with the most popular religion in the country. I can't say we should get half I Friday off to Chilax (Friday is the equivilant to Sunday in Islam), simply because Ireland is a catholic country. How are you all hating on the bible it's your holy book! I don't complain about things like why is saint Patrick's day a bank holiday, because that's why way is has been for a long time and that's the way it has worked for a long time. All the people saying abortion is good should just give up because abortion will never be allowed, simply because Ireland is a catholic country. We can't change every damn law for a small percentage of people. We won't be changing gay marriage laws any time soon either. Thank god for that.

So if we make consumption of pork and alcohol mandatory, along with betting on the gee-gees, you'll be fine with that. So noted.

Nodin · 23-04-2013 12:22pm

....The boylan fella was on VB, for anyone interested. Alas this was followed by Simmons so I hit the "off" switch as soon as she opened her yap.

Doctor Strange · 23-04-2013 12:47pm

Doublelime wrote: »

I'm Muslim (born here, and I'm not a terrorist....or am I? ) and I think abortion is bad. But I know Ireland is a catholic country and I know according to the bible you should not allow abortion etc. I think we should just follow what the bible says, after all most of the people who live here are Christians/roman Catholics (idk).

C'mere you, Mr. Follower of the "religion of peace". Couple of counter-points to your waffle;

1) You were born here, so you don't know the horrors of a theocracy. Ask your mother or grandmother to describe their lives in any middle-eastern theocracy if that is their place of origin.

2) REPUBLIC of Ireland. Most republics (France, for example) are secular. A republic is about freedom for all races, creeds, sexualities, and ideologies

3) Most people who live here are not Christian, let alone practicing. <15% of the population would be practicing religious people.

4) Even if that wasn't the case, I am in my ****ing arse living my life by the worst work of fiction ever written.

Now, sod off.

robindch · 23-04-2013 1:14pm

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

Now, sod off.

Not a helpful thing to say -- please tone down the rhetoric.

aloyisious · 23-04-2013 7:26pm

Haven't got a link, the words used, or an RTE podcast of the Dail today, but Clare Daly had a sharp exchange with Enda today over the abortion issue.

Bannasidhe · 23-04-2013 7:31pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Haven't got a link, the words used, or an RTE podcast of the Dail today, but Clare Daly had a sharp exchange with Enda today over the abortion issue.

Jernal - aloyisious has no link.

:pac:

wisdom win · 23-04-2013 8:00pm

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

2) REPUBLIC of Ireland. Most republics (France, for example) are secular. A republic is about freedom for all races, creeds, sexualities, and ideologies

This is ridiculous secular societies do not give freedom to all ideologies, fascism and communism are ideologies but they are not present in these countries. And none of the above believe that abortions should be carried out so I dont see the relevance of your post

Kiwi in IE · 23-04-2013 8:16pm

wisdom win wrote: »

This is ridiculous secular societies do not give freedom to all ideologies, fascism and communism are ideologies but they are not present in these countries. And none of the above believe that abortions should be carried out so I dont see the relevance of your post

Really? Here are a couple of examples from the UK. If you insist I will find more from any other secular country that interests you!

http://communist-party.org.uk/
http://www.bnp.org.uk/

Sarky · 23-04-2013 8:22pm

Isn't France's main party currently a socialist one?

wisdom win · 23-04-2013 8:26pm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Really? Here are a couple of examples from the UK. If you insist I will find more from any other secular country that interests you!

http://communist-party.org.uk/
http://www.bnp.org.uk/

Yes they are there but they dont have the "freedom" to live by their beliefs.

lazygal · 23-04-2013 8:32pm

wisdom win wrote: »

Yes they are there but they dont have the "freedom" to live by their beliefs.

To what "freedom" are you referring? They have the freedom to run in elections, exactly like other political ideologies.

Kiwi in IE · 23-04-2013 8:35pm

Here's a few more;

http://www.cpa.org.au/

http://www.cpusa.org/

http://www.parti-communiste.ca/

http://www.americanfascistmovement.com/

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Unity_Party_(Canada)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)

Turtwig · 24-04-2013 12:38am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Jernal - aloyisious has no link.

:pac:

HOI SARKYYY!!! GET ON IT BUD! ! !

aloyisious · 24-04-2013 6:15am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Jernal - aloyisious has no link.

:pac:

For it say's: let thy fingers do the walking

Clare Daly was (wo)manning the guns for the Technical Group. "One would think, in a civilised society where it has been found that an innocent woman has died unnecessarily and where half of the population is not given an equal right to health nor has its health rights guaranteed, that the Taoiseach would be spurred into action," she sniped.

The Taoiseach set sail towards the Dragons with obvious discomfort.

"With regard to the issue of circumstances where there is a real and substantial threat to the life of a woman, that matter is under active consideration by the Government," he said, retreating into the comfort of jargon.

Clare was not mollified, and returned to the attack.

"I do not know what the Taoiseach is waiting for. Is he waiting for his daughter, my daughter or someone else's wife to be in the same horrendous circumstance Savita's husband described? Abortion is a health issue. It is a human-rights issue," she charged.

But then Clare made a mistake. She got personal. "I'm not sure why you feel women's lives are less valuable than men's or that their health should be unnecessarily put at risk," she added.

A wriggling Taoiseach was off the hook. Now he could respond to the insult, and dodge answering the actual question. "I completely reject the deputy's assertion that anybody in this House values the lives of women less than anybody else," he retorted.

"There are two lives involved here – the life of the mother and the life of the unborn. It's not a matter to be treated flippantly, glibly or with the kind of remarks you've made," he scolded.

But if it was a let-off, it was merely a short one. His repeated emphasis on the "two lives" involved in this most volatile of minefields where law collides with emotion was a public nod to the pro-life group within Fine Gael, but won't have appeased others in his own party and in Labour who hold a range of pro-choice views.

On one side of him is the devil, on the other, the deep blue sea.

...........................................................................................................................

Way to go, Clare. Ask him what he has between his legs :-)

aloyisious · 24-04-2013 6:24am

Jernal wrote: »

HOI SARKYYY!!! GET ON IT BUD! ! !

Jees, my fingers, my fingers! They're worn to a frazzle :eek:

aloyisious · 24-04-2013 6:28am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Here's a few more;

http://www.cpa.org.au/

http://www.cpusa.org/

http://www.parti-communiste.ca/

http://www.americanfascistmovement.com/

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Unity_Party_(Canada)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)

:eek:They're all political, extend's right hand - non-politically, swivel's and........................... bitchslap's

Nodin · 24-04-2013 11:14am

A woman wouldn't have to see six Doctors, sez he. Technically correct, however.....

Despite Dr Reilly's apparent denial, the Irish Independent has learned that
the draft outline of the abortion legislation specifically involves six
consultants.

A two-phase assessment would be made of a pregnant woman threatening
suicide.

The first phase would involve one obstetrician and two psychiatrists -- one
of whom would have to be a perinatal psychiatrist -- who would have to "jointly certify in their reasonable opinion there is a real and substantial risk" to the life of the mother.

In the second phase, another obstetrician and two more psychiatrists would
"review the opinion and certify they are of the same opinion".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cabinet-bid-to-break-abortion-standoff-over-reilly-29218846.html

lazygal · 24-04-2013 11:30am

Nodin wrote: »

A woman wouldn't have to see six Doctors, sez he. Technically correct, however.....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cabinet-bid-to-break-abortion-standoff-over-reilly-29218846.html

Ah, so once you pass one level you need to play through another level.....or avail of the British solution.

On a serious note, I've rarely felt so insulted as a woman - yes I'm personalising this - by a proposal. Once again, its like abortion HAS to be a difficult, life changing, massive decision, instead of one made by a woman and a woman alone.

Turtwig · 24-04-2013 11:36am

aloyisious wrote: »

Jees, my fingers, my fingers! They're worn to a frazzle :eek:

Exactly, all Sarky's fault, if he had just provided the link for you. . .

kylith · 24-04-2013 11:54am

lazygal wrote: »

Ah, so once you pass one level you need to play through another level.....or avail of the British solution.

On a serious note, I've rarely felt so insulted as a woman - yes I'm personalising this - by a proposal. Once again, its like abortion HAS to be a difficult, life changing, massive decision, instead of one made by a woman and a woman alone.

I agree. It makes me very angry that if I were to find myself in a crisis pregnancy I'd have to jump through so many hoops to prove that I was 'serious' about not wanting to be pregnant. Why isn't 'I don't want to be pregnant' enough of a reason?

Between not being trusted to make my own decisions about what's best for me, and being aware that if I were to become ill while pregnant my health would not be the primary concern, this issue is really starting to worry me. What kind of country would tell anyone 'I'm sorry, we have to wait until you're at a definite risk of dying before we can help you'? It's ****ing barbaric!

I find myself wishing that I could infect TDs with something and refuse to give them treatment until there was a clear and definite risk to their lives.

Pherekydes · 24-04-2013 12:53pm

Nodin wrote: »

A woman wouldn't have to see six Doctors, sez he. Technically correct, however.....

It's not six, Nodin; it's three doctors, twice. Not the same thing at all, at all.

Plus, there'll probably be a 'consideration period' between the rounds of consultations of, say, 6 months, and then a 'cooling-off period' before the actual abortion of, say, another 6 months.

kylith · 24-04-2013 1:24pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not six, Nodin; it's three doctors, twice. Not the same thing at all, at all.

Plus, there'll probably be a 'consideration period' between the rounds of consultations of, say, 6 months, and then a 'cooling-off period' before the actual abortion of, say, another 6 months.

Wow, that's very timely. Judging by previous experience of trying to get appointments in this country I'd have thought the foetus would be in college before a decision was made.

Bannasidhe · 24-04-2013 1:27pm

kylith wrote: »

Wow, that's very timely. Judging by previous experience of trying to get appointments in this country I'd have thought the foetus would be in college before a decision was made.

In college? I reckoned it would have emigrated...oh, hang on. That's what they want it to do....

MrPudding · 24-04-2013 1:37pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not six, Nodin; it's three doctors, twice. Not the same thing at all, at all.

Plus, there'll probably be a 'consideration period' between the rounds of consultations of, say, 6 months, and then a 'cooling-off period' before the actual abortion of, say, another 6 months.

No, I don't think the woman will see six doctors. My reading of it is 6 are involved, but only 3 will meet the woman. The woman will see 3 and they will make a recommendation. That recommendation will then be reviewed by the second 3, presumably without meeting with the woman. Still an awful process and presumably designed to allow business as usual, women going to the UK.

MrP

wisdom win · 24-04-2013 1:44pm

Why isn't 'I don't want to be pregnant' enough of a reason?

No because in order to be not pregnant one would have to kill the unborn baby. i.e take a human life. Thats like saying I dont want to look after a sick parent so why can't we just kill them?

being aware that if I were to become ill while pregnant my health would not be the primary concern,

WOW, the level of misinformation in the pro-life campo is mindboggling. The womans health is the primary concern and abortions take place regularly all over the country when there is any risk to the womans life. In the Savita case it was medical misadventure which means she would have been saved if it wasnt for the doctors f*cking up.

I just hate how all the pro-choice group is using the death of an innocent womans to push their agendas and using her to spread their views.

Turtwig · 24-04-2013 1:46pm

wisdom win wrote: »

The womans health is the primary concern and abortions take place regularly all over the country when there is any risk to the womans life..

Got any stats to back this up? If abortions are taking place regularly then there should be a record of these.

lazygal · 24-04-2013 1:52pm

wisdom win wrote: »

No because in order to be not pregnant one would have to kill the unborn baby. i.e take a human life. Thats like saying I dont want to look after a sick parent so why can't we just kill them?

So you agree with forced pregnancy and childbirth? Do you agree with the woman also being forced to raise the child?

[/QUOTE]WOW, the level of misinformation in the pro-life campo is mindboggling. The womans health is the primary concern and abortions take place regularly all over the country when there is any risk to the womans life. In the Savita case it was medical misadventure which means she would have been saved if it wasnt for the doctors f*cking up.

I just hate how all the pro-choice group is using the death of an innocent womans to push their agendas and using her to spread their views.[/QUOTE]

Have you had a baby in Ireland recently? Not one mother I know who's given birth within the past year felt like their wishes were paramount. I know women who had their waters broken without consent, refused episiotomies but were given them anyway, no anomaly scan done so they had no idea if there were any medical issues with the baby.

I hate how pro life groups think everyone has to follow them. If you don't want an abortion don't have one, but don't dare force women to gestate and birth babies they don't want because you don't agree with a woman's right to chose to 'kill her baby' or whatever emotive bull you're spouting.

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