Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Obliq

Sarky wrote: »

TD
Also, she wrote a lovely blog which pretty much amounts to "STFU women, at least you're not in Afghanistan." So think about that ladies, as you veil up and drive to your protests(with a male escort of course to make sure you don't get raped on the way because you're all asking for it really you wanton creatures)!

I can't read all this...I really cannot. She's so far removed from those of us women of Ireland who GENUINELY feel that we're still only one step away from sidling down the side-aisle of the church for fear that our unmarried motherhood would taint the cleaner element of the congregation. F. U. Lucinda. Seriously. F.U. VERY MUCH.

Morag

The line up for Tonight with Vincent Browne this evening 11pm http://www.aertv.ie/#tv3

CoraSherlock, solicitor and deputy chairperson for the pro life campaign
Dr Peadar O’Grady psychiatrist and founding member of DoctorsforChoice,
Professor Patricia Casey psychiatrist and patron of the Iona Institute
Professor Veronica O’Keane Perinatal psychiatrist

lazygal

Morag wrote: »

The line up for Tonight with Vincent Browne this evening 11pm http://www.aertv.ie/#tv3

CoraSherlock, solicitor and deputy chairperson for the pro life campaign
Dr Peadar O’Grady psychiatrist and founding member of DoctorsforChoice,
Professor Patricia Casey psychiatrist and patron of the Iona Institute
Professor Veronica O’Keane Perinatal psychiatrist

Let the pro life bingo commence, using the broadsheet.ie list.

Doctor Strange

We had the pleasure of a visit from Lucinda not too long ago in NUIM. She's quite an unlikable person, to put it in language that won't get me an infraction.

Morag

lazygal wrote: »

Let the pro life bingo commence, using the broadsheet.ie list.

Or there is this one http://www.buzzbuzzbingo.com/bingocard/11685

Hotblack Desiato

From Lucinda's blog:

For the record, I do not come to this debate with any religious or idealogical[sic] ‘hang-up’. Like 85% of the population I have been brought up as, and describe myself as a Catholic. I am not a particularly devout one and I am not diligent in attending religious ceremonies. So I suppose I am like most Irish Catholics in that respect.

Shur, religious ideological hangups don't count when they're Catholic religious ideological hangups, and she doesn't go to mass that often, so there. Not like them Iona types atall atall... :rolleyes:

Taliban: don't want women to be allowed to make decisions affecting their lives.
Lucinda: doesn't want.. ah crap! Deflect! Deflect! Deflect!

JimiTime

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/why-dr-kermit-gosnells-trial-should-be-a-front-page-story/274944/

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You keep saying this nonsense that the Constitution is written half in Irish - it isn't and you have acknowledged you know this but yet here again you are claiming we would have to show women who want an abortion the Irish version when it can be read in English

Yup, and I'll stick with my rhetoric as it highlights the fact that the Irish text is so incomprehensible to most Irish citizens that it could be saying anything. For what it's worth, some cognoscenti do have discussions around whether "na mbeo gan breith" has some significant difference to "unborn". Like most Irish people, I don't have the competence to comment on that. Yet, the Irish version is the authoritative one. If you can't comprehend why the authoritative version of the law needs to be in a langauge that people can understand, I really can't help you.

Obliq wrote: »

Yeah, fair enough (bolded bit). Neither have I.
But hypothetically, how is it that participation in a drug trial (to hopefully save your life) necessitating an abortion and the 8th amendment obstructing access to normal treatment are any different? That's the SAME issue. Not a different one.

All I can do is refer you back to my post, which sort of addresses that.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I've no idea if that statement is correct. If it is, it would show that the 8th Amendment introduced a complication - presumably, someone with a history of cancer could be very willing to undergo experimental treatment, yet presumably companies would be very reluctant to have the legal exposure if there were side-effects on a foetus.

Now, I take it we could probably milk a few posts out of whether participating in a drug trial is identical to undergoing proven treatment, or whether it's just something that's quite similar to it. I don't think that will make any practical difference to what I've said. But be pragmatic for a moment. If what the pro-lifer said is accurate, it suggests there is a difference if an abortion wasn't necessary to pursue the normal treatment. That's what the contention was - that the requirement to abort wasn't, strictly speaking, a medical requirement. It was a condition required by the company testing the drug.

And I'll restate, to avoid confusion. I'm not standing over the validity of this contention. I'm simply letting people know the claim was made. In truth, we haven't a John Jaysus about the facts of the case, apart from that the HSE paid compensation. If the HSE are paying compensation to people who can't source services prohibited by the Constitution, then I think we might have identified a potential area where budget savings might be made.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Yup, and I'll stick with my rhetoric as it highlights the fact that the Irish text is so incomprehensible to most Irish citizens that it could be saying anything. For what it's worth, some cognoscenti do have discussions around whether "na mbeo gan breith" has some significant difference to "unborn". Like most Irish people, I don't have the competence to comment on that. Yet, the Irish version is the authoritative one. If you can't comprehend why the authoritative version of the law needs to be in a langauge that people can understand, I really can't help you.

Your rhetoric has been fact checked and found baseless.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Your rhetoric has been fact checked and found baseless.

Can you elaborate? Is your contention that most Irish people actually can tell whether the Irish version of the text varies in any respect for the English? I'd suspect most of us couldn't tell you if a particular Irish text was a translation of the key part of the 8th Amendment, or whether it was warning them of the dangers of using particular products in conjunction with oil-based lubricants.

PopePalpatine

JimiTime wrote: »

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/why-dr-kermit-gosnells-trial-should-be-a-front-page-story/274944/

So tell me Jimi, is Dr. Harold Shipman representative of the nursing/retirement home sector?

Or is this another vacuous pro-lifer/anti-choicer drive-by?

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Can you elaborate? Is your contention that most Irish people actually can tell whether the Irish version of the text varies in any respect for the English? I'd suspect most of us couldn't tell you if a particular Irish text was a translation of the key part of the 8th Amendment, or whether it was warning them of the dangers of using particular products in conjunction with oil-based lubricants.

GCU once again you seem bent on dragging us down some rabbit hole of irrelevance.

You said the Constitution was half written in Irish and that women would be forced to read the relevant articles in Irish. That is patently untrue.

As for being able to comprehend it - if you think all Irish people would be able comprehend it even if it was in English you have more faith in our education system than I do.

It matters not what language it is in, it matters how it is interpreted - and yes, the English version is open to interpretation as it the Irish.

Turtwig

Bannasidhe wrote: »

GCU once again you seem bent on dragging us down some rabbit hole of irrelevance.

You said the Constitution was half written in Irish and that women would be forced to read the relevant articles in Irish. That is patently untrue.

As for being able to comprehend it - if you think all Irish people would be able comprehend it even if it was in English you have more faith in our education system than I do.

It matters not what language it is in, it matters how it is interpreted - and yes, the English version is open to interpretation as it the Irish.

GCU's point though is that the Irish version has the definite authority. It matters very much what language it's in because if the English thing says one and the Irish thing says another similar but not the exact same thing the Irish interpretation is the one the law goes by.

jill_valentine

Jernal wrote: »

GCU's point though is that the Irish version has the definite authority. It matters very much what language it's in because if the English thing says one and the Irish thing says another similar but not the exact same thing the Irish interpretation is the one the law goes by.

Unless there are material differences on this topic in particular, what possible relevance does that have to the subject?

Bannasidhe

Jernal wrote: »

GCU's point though is that the Irish version has the definite authority. It matters very much what language it's in because if the English thing says one and the Irish thing says another similar but not the exact same thing the Irish interpretation is the one the law goes by.

Then GCU could have simply said that.

I know I have previously said just that to him the last time he introduced this falsehood and he acknowledged he knew it was the case that the Irish version is authorative but the full text is, nonetheless, available in English so why return with the same incorrect statements re half in Irish and women would need to read 40.3.3 in Irish when that simply is not true and he knows it?

Red herrings down rabbit holes.

IMHO.

marienbad

Jernal wrote: »

GCU's point though is that the Irish version has the definite authority. It matters very much what language it's in because if the English thing says one and the Irish thing says another similar but not the exact same thing the Irish interpretation is the one the law goes by.

Are there any examples in law where this has happened ?

As a general principle I agree the English version should have primacy.

efb

Why do Pro-lifers always come across as unbalanced fundamentalists on tv?

jill_valentine

efb wrote: »

Why do Pro-lifers always come across as unbalanced fundamentalists on tv?

Hold on, I need to think about that.

Pherekydes

efb wrote: »

Why do Pro-lifers always come across as unbalanced fundamentalists on tv?

They're not pro-life; they're anti-choice.

Sarky

efb wrote: »

Why do Pro-lifers always come across as unbalanced fundamentalists on tv?

Best rhetorical question ever?

lazygal

efb wrote: »

Why do Pro-lifers always come across as unbalanced fundamentalists on tv?

Because they are.

efb

Sure think of all the jobs that the abortion clinics will produce if iona is proved correct about legislation! And less people competing for jobs in the future!

Hotblack Desiato

Currently we're an importer of abortion, we should have a 'guaranteed Irish' abortion ad campaign first to stop all those funds flowing out of the country. Then we can get the tourism crowd on bord (:pac:) and set ourselves up as the leading abortion tourist destination for former catholic countries. Win!

Morag

ninja900 wrote: »

Currently we're an importer of abortion, we should have a 'guaranteed Irish' abortion ad campaign first to stop all those funds flowing out of the country. Then we can get the tourism crowd on bord (:pac:) and set ourselves up as the leading abortion tourist destination for former catholic countries. Win!

The only 'Catholic' EU country other then use which does not already have abortion is Malta.

Bannasidhe

ninja900 wrote: »

Currently we're an importer of abortion, we should have a 'guaranteed Irish' abortion ad campaign first to stop all those funds flowing out of the country. Then we can get the tourism crowd on bord (:pac:) and set ourselves up as the leading abortion tourist destination for former catholic countries. Win!

We should throw in lavish gay weddings - hit the don't want a baybee and cant have a baybee market at the same time.

OR ...... :eek:

We could lure pregnant women here and keep them here until they have had their baybee and then we, the Irish State, could keep the baybees that some women didn't want but had to have as we wouldn't let them leave and then (this bit is bloody genius) sell the baybees to the gays we marry!!

The Recession is OVER!!!

Morag

You mean turn the baybess into gaybees?

efb

And then we could have "The Gathering" of all the dead babies dna to play god with!

Bannasidhe

Morag wrote: »

You mean turn the baybess into gaybees?

and we have our slogan.

Ireland

Where we turn baybees into gaybees.

Bannasidhe

efb wrote: »

And then we could have "The Gathering" of all the dead babies dna to play god with!

STEM CELLS!!!

efb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

STEM CELLS!!!

The recession is over!

Payrises for all (except the dead baybees)