Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Flier

I really like the new thread title, but I'm a little concerned that we're at risk of losing market share if people see the title and think that they can have their abortion and experience interesting things IN GRANADA!

Turtwig

Flier wrote: »

I really like the new thread title, but I'm a little concerned that we're at risk of losing market share if people see the title and think that they can have their abortion and experience interesting things IN GRANADA!

Copied Lingua's request verbatim. Abortions are a convenience thing. Sure if we legalise it dem wimminz will think it's ok to Skeet the baybee if it interferes with their holiday plans. Title is just being honest.

lazygal

Flier wrote: »

I really like the new thread title, but I'm a little concerned that we're at risk of losing market share if people see the title and think that they can have their abortion and experience interesting things IN GRANADA!

Sure us wimminz all combine our regular abortions with fun trips away. It'll be way less craic killin de baaaayyyyyybbbbeeees when the floodgates open and there's abortion mills on every street.

Stark

efb wrote: »

if you bring the dead baybee back with you, it better fit in the hand luggage

It'll never fit. I was at a crisis pregnancy meeting with no declared religious ethos and they told me that the foetus is 6 feet tall and capable of doing integration by parts at 17 weeks.

aloyisious

First things first, for the past two pages.

I watched Vinnie last night and only copped then that Prof Casey had "Iona" baggage attached. Nice to see herself and the Pro-life Solicitor had their duo-act in order. It left me wondering whether the Prof could offer an unbiased hearing and evaluation to any pregnant woman were she to be on an evaluation board. The Pro-life solicitor and her "the baby" quotes when she was referring to the foetus in the womb got me going, though that's probably one of the preferred terms used by the "Pro-life" side to sway people to their camp.

Ta to Pherekydes for giving me a new term "anti-choice" to describe the Casey/Iona camp

Edit: one thing about the Republic's debate on abortion is that it must be unsettling to our fellow islanders on the far side of the border, seeing as how the Govt partners "up there" seem united in opposition to the notion of legalized abortion to women on reques. t

lazygal

I fear for any patients under Dr Casey. She's a psychiatrist, so dealing with people who must be vulnerable and in crisis. I might be wrong, but sometimes I think mental difficulties are more difficult to deal with than physical ailments and I wonder how she approaches patients, if she pushes them down a predetermined path and if her ethos is reflected in her practice. I have to be honest, if I knew someone was under her care I'd be asking questions. Does the Mater's ethos coincide with hers? Its not a hospital I'm familiar with.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Nodin wrote: »

Really.

Has this ever been raised in a court case?

Can I say, I find the apparent belief (by some) that Irish people should accept the accuracy of the Irish version as an act of faith to be an interesting contention to find on a atheism forum. If someone really needs convincing that it's just not a good idea to have your basic law written in a language that few citizens understand, you might cast an eye over this document.

https://www.constitution.ie/Documents/Bunreacht%20na%20hEireann%20-%20Study%20of%20the%20Irish%20Text.pdf

This study seeks to establish that the Irish text is in fact no ‘mere translation’ of the English and reveals that almost every section of the Constitution contains divergences of some degree between the two texts. The following study illustrates that, were an official direct translation into Irish to be made today of the original English text of the Constitution, very few sections of such a translation would correspond to the existing Irish text of the Constitution, this by no means being due solely, nor even principally, to developments in the language which have taken place since 1937.

In the commentary on the Constitution which follows, we shall see that while many of the provisions of the 1937 Constitution are identical to provisions of the 1922 Constitution, the Irish text of which is an acknowledged direct translation of the English, the corresponding Irish text in the 1937 Constitution differs greatly, and one must assume deliberately, from that of the 1922 Constitution, again this being in very few instances due to developments in the Irish language between 1922 and 1937.

I haven't, and won't, be reading it. My contention is discussion aimed at reconciling the two texts is an unnecessary burden to be placing on people The authoritative text should simply be changed to give primacy to the English version, being the native language of the overwhelming majority of Irish people.

And, yes, of course the fecking Irish version sometimes gets used in Court cases. Because it's the real fecking Constitution; what's so hard to understand? Here's an example

http://www.supremecourt.ie/supremecourt/sclibrary3.nsf/(WebFiles)/7AA962985D72B1A28025768F0034FF30/$FILE/Roche%20v.%20Roche.pdf

<...>In my view the subsection 3 of Article 40.3. is clear in its intent. It is intended to protect human life before birth. The key words in the English version are "life of the unborn" and in particular, in my view the much more apt expression, "mbeo gan breith chun a mbeatha (beo in its genitive case). I think "ceart na mbeo gan breith chun a mbeatha" can be fairly interpreted as meaning the right of life not yet born to live or to its life.<...>

"mbeo gan breith chun a mbeatha" is a much more apt expression, apparently. Why? I haven't a John Jaysus, and nor do most of the Irish people. I sort of know what "equal right to life of the mother" means. I might speculate as to what an "unborn" is. But I haven't the foggiest what significance we're meant to be seeing there, or why it's illuminating that "beo" is being used in its genitive case. Maybe he could throw in a reference to the Mo Con Kneel-lock, just to make it even more comprehensible.

Now, is there any prospect of a response that won't remind me of what du Garbandier said was the beauty of reading a page of de Selby.

Sarky

koth wrote: »

Straw Clutching Latest

It's only clutching at straws if everyone challenges her on it. Sit back and do nothing, and she'll actually convince enough people she's not a lying scumbag.

PopePalpatine

The woman is the ultimate boner-killer. :pac:

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The woman is the ultimate boner-killer. :pac:

Was it the sparkly cross?

PopePalpatine

Yeah, I prefer my women to be godless harlots. :pac:

aloyisious

lazygal wrote: »

I fear for any patients under Dr Casey. She's a psychiatrist, so dealing with people who must be vulnerable and in crisis. I might be wrong, but sometimes I think mental difficulties are more difficult to deal with than physical ailments and I wonder how she approaches patients, if she pushes them down a predetermined path and if her ethos is reflected in her practice. I have to be honest, if I knew someone was under her care I'd be asking questions. Does the Mater's ethos coincide with hers? Its not a hospital I'm familiar with.

It was founded as an RC hospital by the Sisters of Mercy. It has training links in some medical branches with UCD, though not in Psychiatrics - which Prof Casey has on her CV as a member of the UCD training/teaching faculty, while her CV list's her as being involved in Psychiatric care at the Mater.

Morag

Article 27 got a mention today, it never been used but allows for a bill to be referred to the people in a referendum.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/government-claims-progress-on-abortion-legislation-1.1372994

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Can I say, I find the apparent belief (by some) that Irish people should accept the accuracy of the Irish version as an act of faith to be an interesting contention to find on a atheism forum. If someone really needs convincing that it's just not a good idea to have your basic law written in a language that few citizens understand, you might cast an eye over this document.I haven't, and won't, be reading it. My contention is discussion aimed at reconciling the two texts is an unnecessary burden to be placing on people The authoritative text should simply be changed to give primacy to the English version, being the native language of the overwhelming majority of Irish people.

And, yes, of course the fecking Irish version sometimes gets used in Court cases. Because it's the real fecking Constitution; what's so hard to understand? Here's an example"mbeo gan breith chun a mbeatha" is a much more apt expression, apparently. Why? I haven't a John Jaysus, and nor do most of the Irish people. I sort of know what "equal right to life of the mother" means. I might speculate as to what an "unborn" is. But I haven't the foggiest what significance we're meant to be seeing there, or why it's illuminating that "beo" is being used in its genitive case. Maybe he could throw in a reference to the Mo Con Kneel-lock, just to make it even more comprehensible.

Now, is there any prospect of a response that won't remind me of what du Garbandier said was the beauty of reading a page of de Selby.

Didn't you say you had started a thread devoted to this very topic?

Yet, here you are....

GCU Flexible Demeanour

koth wrote: »

Straw Clutching Latest

Hmm. If one-third of Irish trick cyclists responded positively to a survey organised by anyone, including the Khmer Rouge, it does represent a fair indication that the proposition is reasonable. I think the straw clutching is to fixate on the "90%" figure. Yes, you'd like some journo to ask why it was only sent to 302 of the total membership of 350. But isn't the survey only confirming what we know already - the suicide ground is all my eye.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Didn't you say you had started a thread devoted to this very topic?

Yet, here you are....

Yeah, here I am demonstrating that the Irish text, incomprehensible to the vast bulk of people who are bound by it's strictures, has actually been referred to in cases related to the 8th Amendment. Here I am demonstrating the relevance of this issue to abortion legislation. Clearly, that's off-topic, but pretentious sh!te about holidays in Spain far from the hoi polloi aren't.

And here you are, demonstrating the influence of Irish Catholicism on the national mindset, avoiding rather than dealing with points that demonstrate you are wrong.

robindch

JimiTime wrote: »

Its just an article about abortion, the hypocrisy, the media silence, and also gives an insight into the evil occurring.

Given that google shows around two and a half million hits for Kermit Gosnell, I'm wondering how much more coverage is needed to constitute "media noise"?

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe it could even melt some of the coldness in you guys.

You could well do with practicing some of that love you keep talking about.

Morag

Jernal wrote: »

HOI SARKYYY!!! GET ON IT BUD! ! !

While I can never have such a grand beard, I do have that link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-gyBoO7KcM

Lingua Franca

For once, this thread has made my day. Misspelling and all.

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Can I say, I find (.................)de Selby.

We'll try this again.

Has anybody managed to challenge a law or constitutional article/amendment successfully, on the basis of either incomprehension of the text or differences between versions, here or in Europe?

A reply lacking in sneers and pseudo-intellectualism would be appreciated.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Hmm. If one-third of Irish trick cyclists responded positively to a survey organised by anyone, including the Khmer Rouge, it does represent a fair indication that the proposition is reasonable. I think the straw clutching is to fixate on the "90%" figure. Yes, you'd like some journo to ask why it was only sent to 302 of the total membership of 350. But isn't the survey only confirming what we know already - the suicide ground is all my eye.Yeah, here I am demonstrating that the Irish text, incomprehensible to the vast bulk of people who are bound by it's strictures, has actually been referred to in cases related to the 8th Amendment. Here I am demonstrating the relevance of this issue to abortion legislation. Clearly, that's off-topic, but pretentious sh!te about holidays in Spain far from the hoi polloi aren't.

And here you are, demonstrating the influence of Irish Catholicism on the national mindset, avoiding rather than dealing with points that demonstrate you are wrong.

Pretentious ****e eh?

Wassa matter GU - didn't anyone want to discuss this on the thread you created to discuss this so you decided to raise that flag here again and are now miffed it didn't fly?

I am possibly the only person who did deign to discuss it with you on several ocassions- albeit to point out that you are engaging in hyperbole and factually incorrect statements - while pretty much everyone else ignored you yet you didn't get the hint.

As for 'demonstrating the influence of Irish Catholicism on the national mindset' - since when does the Irish language belong to the RCC? Douglas Hyde would have had a thing or two to say about that -
To equate the two as you have done demonstrates it is you who cannot see past Irish = Catholic.

Let me put this in simple terms for you - in the context of the topic of women's control over their own bodies I don't care what language is employed to tell me I don't have the right to decide what happens my own body. It could be in Sanskrit for all I care just as long as they remove the restrictions. ECHR rulings are available in many languages I do not read (my German in very weak and my Dutch is abysmal) so I read the English version trusting (and sometimes we do have to trust the experts) that it says the same in German, Spanish, Italian and...Irish. I suspect that if there were discrepancies eager beaver lawyers would soon highlight them.

I agree that the vast majority of Irish people have no idea of the purpose of the Constitution or have ever considered reading it and this is a very very bad thing but I dispute that this is because the Irish version takes precedence over the English one and would put it down to apathy and disengagement from our political process - a disengagement encouraged by our educational system that privileges loyalty to the Church of Rome over loyalty to the State and is far more concerned with creating obedient Catholics than engaged citizens. You can't blame that on a language.

Now I must return to shunning the hoi polloi while planning my next trip to bask in the beauty created by the caliphate of Cordoba.

Lingua Franca

Heh, I missed that because I've taken to skimming GCU's posts.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Clearly, that's off-topic, but pretentious sh!te about holidays in Spain far from the hoi polloi aren't.

We're having a laugh in what is an often tense and belligerent megathread. That's the opposite of pretentious, unlike your sense of humour by-pass.

Sarky

In fairness you'd probably be a little extra miffed if it was written in Esperanto :pac:

Sarky

Lingua Franca wrote: »

unlike your sense of humour by-pass.

I thought it was terminated for medical reasons?

Lingua Franca

It's an unfortunate side effect in the process of taking yourself too seriously.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

I thought it was terminated for medical reasons?

Must have had it done it the UK as unless it placed his life at real, substantial and probable risk there are no terminations of humour on this here island.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

[...] bask in the beauty created by the caliphate of Cordoba.

Can't ever hear that name without wondering which I dislike more -- the hideous choir woodwork or Arfe's revolting monstrance.

Both fittings are notably dreadful, but the entire ensemble within the graceful and deeply elegant (former) mosque combines to produce a feeling of architectural revulsion which is really quite indescribable.

krudler

Marge, is Lisa at Camp Granada?

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Can't ever hear that name without wondering which I dislike more -- the hideous choir woodwork or Arfe's revolting monstrance.

Both fittings are notably dreadful, but the entire ensemble within the graceful and deeply elegant (former) mosque combines to produce a feeling of architectural revulsion which is really quite indescribable.

Now, now Rob - don't be getting all pretentious on us.


:pac:

jank

Sarky wrote: »

TD Lucinda Creighton outright refuses to legislate for X if suicide is included. One would think, being Minister of State for European affairs, and thus knowing full well the ECHR is running out of patience for X to be legislated, she would know that suicide was the main f*cking point.

Also, she wrote a lovely blog which pretty much amounts to "STFU women, at least you're not in Afghanistan." So think about that ladies, as you veil up and drive to your protests(with a male escort of course to make sure you don't get raped on the way because you're all asking for it really you wanton creatures)!

She was responding to the people who make out that Ireland is some kinda horrible place for women to live much like the Taliban treated women in Afghanistan. There of course needs to be debate but there is none of that here. Just the 'I am right!, your a religious nut job cause u disagree with me' that is plain to see here. Much easier to argue a stereotype than people. I didn't think much of Lucinda but that piece is spot on I think and I don't even argue with her position on abortion.

Turtwig

Folks,

We all appreciate that spurts of humours are more than welcome. But please remember that humour is subjective and some people may not take too kindly to people suggesting their sense of humour needs to checked or they're taking things too serious. Especially when this can be a very emotional topic.

So let's try to get along and build bridges, not hack at them.
Thanks,
Your effervescency.