Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

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OldNotWIse wrote: »

Thats fine, nobody is arguing with you. The problem is, when you come on here and say you had an abortion and it was professional, well managed etc, everybody "likes" your post etc. When someone comes on and says, "my friend had an abortion and she had a terrible time" everyone accuses her of lying - why is this?? If they think her relaying a negative experience is condeming it, then surely (by logic) someone relaying a positive experience is promoting it?

I think you mean "my friend had an abortion, here are all these facts that apply to everyone". You'll also note that christmas2012 was the first person to accuse someone else of lying about their personal experience

christmas2012

So is the equality of all citizens of the State - yet I can't marry my OH but my brother and sister could.

What about the equality for the foetus,is that not a developing person too?Some of these foetuses are left dying on a table for hours without the amniotic fluid they need.If that was done to an animal it would be deemed cruelty.

And hopefully the Gay marraige law gets passed soon so you can marry your OH

What has gay rights got to do with abortion,i find this saddening when people try to link gay rights with abortion - these are both seperate issues and very different issues.

People tend to also confuse abortion with womens rights,hence when people talk about womens rights,it becomes a tool for manipulation,and has many women siding with the pro abortinists agenda and ulterior motives of advertising their services etc,without knowing the full facts of what a traumatic experience a painful procedure such as abortion is,with very little after care - my friend just got one paracetemol tablet after the event..

You dont have to like the story,it doesnt always sit well with the pro abortion argument but it is the truth..

eviltwin

Also if you go with a friend you are left to wait in a waiting room until she comes out so you don't get to see any of what actually happens. Seeing as how Christmas says her friend was put under for the duration I am willing to bet that there is a fair amount of potential for inaccuracies in her "facts"

Sin City

eviltwin wrote: »

I wasn't saying ALL abortions are like mine. I've heard horror stories believe me but to come on and say things like "there is no pain relief only 1 paracetamol FACT" is totally untrue and has to be challenged.

Im sure all abortions are different and though I have no knowledge of aftercare of abortion I agree 1 paracetamol does seem fairly dubious, one wouldnt even get rid of a hangover.

Again I have no idea of care after abortion but surely if you have one in the UK and come home, there is still a duty of care from the doctors to treat you here if there are any complications(hypocratic oath and whatnot)

robindch

doctoremma wrote: »

Robin, what's the next option after massive and red?

Ooooo, matron!

Sin City

christmas2012 wrote: »

What about the equality for the foetus,is that not a developing person too?Some of these foetuses are left dying on a table for hours without the amniotic fluid they need.If that was done to an animal it would be deemed cruelty.




What has gay rights got to do with abortion,i find this saddening when people try to link gay rights with abortion - these are both seperate issues and very different issues.

People tend to also confuse abortion with womens rights,hence when people talk about womens rights,it becomes a tool for manipulation,and has many women siding with the pro abortinists agenda and ulterior motives of advertising their services etc,without knowing the full facts of what a traumatic experience a painful procedure such as abortion is,with very little after care - my friend just got one paracetemol tablet after the event..

You dont have to like the story,it doesnt always sit well with the pro abortion argument but it is the truth..

The gay rights aregument was about whats in the consitution

There is a pro life bill, but also an every citizen should be treated equally, yet homosexuals are discriminated against when it comes to marraige. Its a fair point to make

christmas2012

Also if you go with a friend you are left to wait in a waiting room until she comes out so you don't get to see any of what actually happens.

Scroll back,for a few minutes and ACTUALLY READ WHAT I HAD SAID,I didnt say 1. i was a mind reader,two i did wait outside,i also said before in a previous post that obviously i was not allowed into the abortion room..

READ WHAT I HAD SAID FOR ONCE.

doctoremma

Sin City wrote: »

But intellectualy I would say Id save the embryos

Its a no real win hypothetical scenario

Agree it's a no win. But I'm interested in your final, thought-not-instinct, response. You would save the embryos. Interesting (and novel).

Personally, I'd always save the woman. I'd save many other non-human animals over the tank. The only sticking point would be if I considered that the cryotank is likely to be full of embryos banked by people no longer able to conceive but hoping to have children using said embryos. So nothing to do with the "life" of the embryos, more to do with their value to others.

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

Just to clarify I wasn't saying abortion is great, its not, its bloody awful. But it was the best option out of the three for me and I can't say anything bad about the care I got. It was a world away from what Christmas described.

Indeed. If I got pregnant (which could only happen as the result of rape) I would have no choice but to seriously consider an abortion as my alternative would be my likely death. I would not want an abortion, I would agonise over the decision but it would come down to I live or both the foetus and I likely die.

I would choose to live rather than risk depriving my son of his mother, my grandchildren of their grandmother, my parents of her daughter, my siblings of their sister, my nieces and nephew of their aunt based on a less then 10% chance that I would survive a pregnancy long enough to allow a foetus to develop to full term.

To anyone who would accuse me of thereby being a 'baby murderer' or some such emotive nonsense for choosing my life over that of an unwanted foetus I say how dare you judge me!

christmas2012

yet homosexuals are discriminated against when it comes to marraige

Still two seperate issues,yes i do think that homosexuals should have the right to marry as well as other members of the gay community such as lesbians,bisexuals etc..But that is a different matter,i dont see how bringing this into an abortion debate is helpful,its side tracking it..

eviltwin

Sin City wrote: »

Im sure all abortions are different and though I have no knowledge of aftercare of abortion I agree 1 paracetamol does seem fairly dubious, one wouldnt even get rid of a hangover.

Again I have no idea of care after abortion but surely if you have one in the UK and come home, there is still a duty of care from the doctors to treat you here if there are any complications(hypocratic oath and whatnot)

I'm not sure where you stand legally. I imagine its like any dodgy medical care you get abroad, if you feel ill you go straight to your nearest doctor and they take it from there. I've heard cases of women doing diy abortions here that have gone wrong and they have been treated with the best of care and compassion from Irish hospitals.

The UK clinics do have aftercare and Irish women can avail of it but you're talking about flying back and forth and its just not practical.

Sin City

doctoremma wrote: »

Agree it's a no win. But I'm interested in your final, thought-not-instinct, response. You would save the embryos. Interesting (and novel).

Personally, I'd always save the woman. I'd save many other non-human animals over the tank. The only sticking point would be if I considered that the cryotank is likely to be full of embryos banked by people no longer able to conceive but hoping to have children using said embryos. So nothing to do with the "life" of the embryos, more to do with their value to others.

As I asked, were the embryos viable, ie if saved will be made human

Sin City

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not sure where you stand legally. I imagine its like any dodgy medical care you get abroad, if you feel ill you go straight to your nearest doctor and they take it from there. I've heard cases of women doing diy abortions here that have gone wrong and they have been treated with the best of care and compassion from Irish hospitals.

The UK clinics do have aftercare and Irish women can avail of it but you're talking about flying back and forth and its just not practical.

Legaly you should be ok. Its legal to seek an abortion in the UK or anywhere else. Its illegal to preform one in Ireland. Once back in the state and you need aftercare the state has an obligagtion to treat you

Sin City

christmas2012 wrote: »

Still two seperate issues,yes i do think that homosexuals should have the right to marry as well as other members of the gay community such as lesbians,bisexuals etc..But that is a different matter,i dont see how bringing this into an abortion debate is helpful,its side tracking it..

It was to do with the constitution and the fairness of it as I had said that the constitution gives fetal rights.

Lets not dwell on it too much

eviltwin

Sin City wrote: »

Legaly you should be ok. Its legal to seek an abortion in the UK or anywhere else. Its illegal to preform one in Ireland. Once back in the state and you need aftercare the state has an obligagtion to treat you

I think there is still a misconception you will possibly be in trouble if you go especially if you have done it yourself here, I don't know what the precedent is for that.

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

What about the equality for the foetus,is that not a developing person too?Some of these foetuses are left dying on a table for hours without the amniotic fluid they need.If that was done to an animal it would be deemed cruelty.

..

I'd love to see PROOF that this is actually happening in the clinics in England.

Do you, by any chance, have any sort of documentary evidence to back this up?

Sin City

eviltwin wrote: »

I think there is still a misconception you will possibly be in trouble if you go especially if you have done it yourself here, I don't know what the precedent is for that.

You have to do something illegal in this state to be punished in it.
Yes education here has to rolled out alright

Ickle Magoo

christmas2012 wrote: »

What about the equality for the foetus,is that not a developing person too?Some of these foetuses are left dying on a table for hours without the amniotic fluid they need.If that was done to an animal it would be deemed cruelty.

I'm genuinely curious...do you have evidence of that happening? I don't mean pro-life propaganda, actual documented cases from reputable sources. My son was born at 34 weeks and struggled to breath - the idea that it's common for foetuses (most of whom are aborted in the first term) to manage to breath unaided for hours just seems...bizarre.

christmas2012 wrote: »

People tend to also confuse abortion with womens rights,hence when people talk about womens rights,it becomes a tool for manipulation...

I'm not sure how arguments for forced pregnancy could be anything but about women's rights? Denying a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant an abortion is infringing on her bodily rights and integrity which is central to why I think abortion should be legalised. Steering the debate away from the repercussions of forced pregnancy and public endorsements of stepping back in time with regards to women's right to use certain contraceptions is also a common debate/discussion manipulation tactic.

christmas2012 wrote: »

You dont have to like the story,it doesnt always sit well with the pro abortion argument but it is the truth..

And again with the "pro-abortion" mantra that's been discussed with you numerous times - down you drop another handful of places on the "having rational discussion and should be taken seriously" scale... *sigh*

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

My post, I will use rolleyes as I see fit. If you dont like it, that little scroll thing in the centre of your mouse allows you to skim over the post.

I am aware that being gay does not mean inability to get pregnant (I am gay and I plan to be pregnant some day!) - really I dont think you need to point that out to me. I made it quite clear that this is simply aline trotted out by pro-choicers in every single abortion debate - "Why should people that this will never affect be allowed to have a say?" - have a look around at some of the other threads if you dont believe me.

You are arguing against a point no-one here has made. People here have said they believe women have the right to decide what happens to their own bodies and that right should be inviolate. I don't recall anyone saying no womb = no say, but rather that the ultimate decision rests with the woman who is pregnant because it is her body.

Yes, you can use roll eyes all you want - but it doesn't help keep the debate civil when one employs little sarcastic emoticons nor does it add anything positive to any points you are making if it causes people to scroll on by your posts.

Do you not find it interesting that many of anti-abortion brigade whose side you are firmly on in this debate would see you as 'unfit' to have a child as you are a lesbian?

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

No its not,you deny there is pain involved in the procedure,and you also ignore the fact there is risk of infection and if it sets in can bring on future miscarraiges?


Youre discrediting yourself by your posts.


.

I have absolutely no idea what your point is. I said there was no pain for me, I'm not in denial about that, I'm only telling you what I experienced. I've agreed with you that infection can cause problems in the future if not tackled but as others have pointed out many times its not the abortion that causes the risk, its the fact the woman was pregnant to begin with

marienbad

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Personally I don't get this line of thought, our entire society is predicated on the collective individuals within it making decisions (through votes) on what is permissible within our society, why is this any different.

There is a difference between the public and the private. As a matter of principle (imho) we shoud have as few laws as possible governing the private sphere . So issues like contraception,abortion,sexuality etc should be left to to private conscience until and unless they impact on the public sphere.

doctoremma

Sin City wrote: »

As I asked, were the embryos viable, ie if saved will be made human

Well, they are viable (or at least, as viable as can be assured after removal and freezing) and may be used (but may not).

My gut instinct would have me run out of the burning room with whatever living things I could get my hands on (from humans to hamsters). But not the embryos. Unless, given time to make a proper decision, I had to confront the idea that somewhere, there are people whose entire family hopes rest on what's in that tank. I still wouldn't save them over a child or adult, but I might consider them more precious than a dog at that point.

Sin City

doctoremma wrote: »

Well, they are viable (or at least, as viable as can be assured after removal and freezing) and may be used (but may not).

My gut instinct would have me run out of the burning room with whatever living things I could get my hands on (from humans to hamsters). But not the embryos. Unless, given time to make a proper decision, I had to confront the idea that somewhere, there are people whose entire family hopes rest on what's in that tank. I still wouldn't save them over a child or adult, but I might consider them more precious than a dog at that point.

I understand your points but I think its such an abstract situation that a proper answer cant realy be given

doctoremma

Sin City wrote: »

I understand your points but I think its such an abstract situation that a proper answer cant realy be given

Agree it's a bit of a rabbit hole (with no clear destination). I've always found it a useful conversational tool to get people to recognise that they may well, when the chips are down, assign greater value to the post-natal life over the pre-natal life. Even you say that you think your body is designed to rescue the former over the latter.

christmas2012

I'd love to see PROOF that this is actually happening in the clinics in England.

the idea that it's common for foetuses (most of whom are aborted in the first term) to manage to breath unaided for hours just seems...bizarre.

step 1 : baby is aborted

step 2: no longer connection to amniotic tube in womb.

step 3: suffocates

i wasnt suggesting the foetus was ready to breathe air and as a result of no amniotic fluid suffocates..as it can no longer respire..

Sin City

doctoremma wrote: »

Agree it's a bit of a rabbit hole (with no clear destination). I've always found it a useful conversational tool to get people to recognise that they may well, when the chips are down, assign greater value to the post-natal life over the pre-natal life. Even you say that you think your body is designed to rescue the former over the latter.

It is a good tool to get your point accross but its locking someone into an either or answer when the truth is a bit more complicated than that

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

step 1 : baby is aborted

step 2: no longer connection to amniotic tube in womb.

step 3: suffocates

i wasnt suggesting the foetus was ready to breathe air and as a result of no amniotic fluid suffocates..as it can no longer respire..

Proof please?

robindch

Folks -- that's three posts toasted from three different posters in the last twenty minutes. You know who you are.

Remember again: no insinuations, no rudeness, no personal stuff, no stuff like "BS". It's not hard if yiz all really, really try.

Thanks.

christmas2012

Proof please?

Have you ever read about an abortion procedure,they do cut off amniotic fluid,how do you think the baby survives??

christmas2012

ok robin im leaving off for a while,i was just defending myself against comments like im a liar,and insinuations being made that im lying or spreading mistruths etc..I think i have a right to defend myself,but ill leave it for now maybe come back tommorrow..When hopefully its less heated like you say..Byes