Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Sarky

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I feel soiled reading this.

Your distractions are muddying the waters! :pac:

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

What's your basis for this statement? I'm just trying to judge if you know what a "fact" is.

So there have been significant cases taken with regards to interpretation and comprehension re the two versions in the courts? Do please give a few examples. You can confine yourself to the last 30 years if that helps.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Your distractions are muddying the waters! :pac:

What can I say - I'm just a distracting hoe.

Sierra 117

Mud flinging has never been necessary to save a woman's life. Fact!

lazygal

Mud flinging is not a treatment for suicide! FACT!!!!!! I've a load of studies to back up my claims, which I've taken the good bits from that suit my arguments.

Sierra 117

Mud flinging tears her life apart!

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

Mud flinging is not a treatment for suicide! FACT!!!!!! I've a load of studies to back up my claims, which I've taken the good bits from that suit my arguments.

I am going to refute your argument by discussing clay and cob house building in great detail and when you claim this has nothing to do with the topic in hand dismiss you by calling you hysterical and implying women know nothing about construction and therefore are incapable of seeing the self-evident link between mud flinging and carbon neutral housing.

lazygal

Mud flinging: there's always a better way.

Morag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMpoIum_9rE

Turtwig

Right well that's me told on mentioning anthropomorphic mud.

legspin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What can I say - I'm just a distracting hoe.

At least you aren't a dirty one...

Bannasidhe

legspin wrote: »

At least you aren't a dirty one...

I look good in that photo. They really captured me essence.

Bannasidhe

Jernal wrote: »

Right well that's me told on mentioning anthropomorphic mud.

I'd quite like to hear about anthropomorphic mud actually....

The Black Oil

Saw some pro life ad on Youtube, you know the 'you can skip after 5 seconds' ones that are on top of the video you want to watch? Not sure what group was putting it out there...didn't bother to find out.

TheChizler

The Black Oil wrote: »

Saw some pro life ad on Youtube, you know the 'you can skip after 5 seconds' ones that are on top of the video you want to watch? Not sure what group was putting it out there...didn't bother to find out.

Was it 'life for every child' or something along the lines of that? Saw that and looked into it, they seem to do some good in that they help mothers who have lost children unintentionally, but there are links to them all over the Youth Defence website which made me kind of suspicious.

TheChizler

Actually there were some pro-life/anti-choice protesters outside Jerry Buttimer's office in Cork today. Wasn't very good protesting, they looked like they were just waiting for the bus and hoping to pay with oversized placards.

One of the placards had a 2-3 year old child hugging a foetus, I wasn't quite sure exactly what appeal to which emotion was being put forward there.

PopePalpatine

The Black Oil wrote: »

Saw some pro life ad on Youtube, you know the 'you can skip after 5 seconds' ones that are on top of the video you want to watch? Not sure what group was putting it out there...didn't bother to find out.

This is why I use AdBlock.

Meanwhile, at the Legion of Doom Knock: http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/04/26/pro-life-text-spam/

Nodin

Sierra 117 wrote: »

Mud flinging has never been necessary to save a woman's life. Fact!

Mud-flinging is part of a past best left behind.


We need a new inclusive phillosophy of misogyny all can participate in.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Nodin wrote: »

If we were discussing legal issues generally, it may be a relevant if minor point. However in regards to the matter at hand, its hard to fathom the relevance.

I'm not sure that actually addresses Jernal's point. As I read it, his point was this. If we say the threshold for action to resolve a material legal flaw is that it be demonstrated to have caused repeated serious problems, then there's no case for legislating for the suicide ground in particular, and possibly the 8th Amendment in general. (Although, on the general issue, there is the ECHR ruling that calls for clarity in legislation.)

Nodin wrote: »

So there have been significant cases taken with regards to interpretation and comprehension re the two versions in the courts? Do please give a few examples. You can confine yourself to the last 30 years if that helps.

In case it's missed, this is me seeking a middle ground. I can sympathise if you're disappointed that this will be as good as it gets.

In one sense, I know what you mean. However, as I regard any pandering to Dev's Grand Vision as counter-productive, I'm just not going to spend time sifting through cases to find points where the Irish wording is crucial. If you've a serious interest, there's probably a copy of John Kelly's mighty tome on the Irish Constitution in your local library.

What I can confirm - and have given relevant links to support - is that the Irish text has material differences to the English, and the Irish text is referred to by the Courts when making decisions. It has even been cited in a case related to the 8th Amendment.

If you're happy that the ECHR's demand that Ireland brings clarity to it's abortion law can be satisfied, while expecting your average Irish doctor and lawyer to be capable of appreciating the significance of the use of the genitive case of "beo" when considering the legal standing of an embryo, then fine. (Edit: Actually, more than that, if you think there's nothing wrong in expecting doctors and lawyers to have the expertise to recognise the genitive case of "beo".) Obviously nothing to see here. You'd wonder how we managed to get so much mileage out of the topic.

I'd agree that there's no need to spend quite so much energy on this point - I think the origin of the exchange was were I was pointing to something that Olivia O'Leary could have commented on, as distinct from bringing the Taliban into the question.

If we wanted to expend energy on this, we'd probably do better if we thought about the significance of one third of Irish shrinks saying they think legislation for abortion on suicide grounds is pants. There's any amount of ways of interpreting that - including asserting that they're all in Opus Dei. But it does seem significant, as it suggest problems in legislating for X without a referendum - despite what Enda Kenny might hope for.

aloyisious

Meanwhile at the FF conference, Senator Leyden put this to the floor:

FF Senator: Without the right to life, you have no school
Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 10:34 AM

A Fianna Fáil Senator has used the debate on education at the party's Ard Fheis to call for a continuation of pro-life policies.

The issue of abortion is set to take centre stage at the event later with four motions demanding the party opposes legislation allowing for suicide as a grounds for a termination.

The party said it will not be bound by any of the motions, but will be guided by them.

Senator Leyden told the gathering that without pro-life policies there will not be a need for education and childcare policies.

He said: "Just to say, what is more important, pre-school schooling or the right to life?

"Without the right to life, you have no pre-schooling, you have no school.

"What I say to you is, this is the big issue of the day and we have to ensure that our policies are continued into the future, thank you."

Bannasidhe

aloyisious wrote: »

Meanwhile at the FF conference, Senator Leyden put this to the floor:

FF Senator: Without the right to life, you have no school
Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 10:34 AM

A Fianna Fáil Senator has used the debate on education at the party's Ard Fheis to call for a continuation of pro-life policies.

The issue of abortion is set to take centre stage at the event later with four motions demanding the party opposes legislation allowing for suicide as a grounds for a termination.

The party said it will not be bound by any of the motions, but will be guided by them.

Senator Leyden told the gathering that without pro-life policies there will not be a need for education and childcare policies.

He said: "Just to say, what is more important, pre-school schooling or the right to life?

"Without the right to life, you have no pre-schooling, you have no school.

"What I say to you is, this is the big issue of the day and we have to ensure that our policies are continued into the future, thank you."

Which is why there are no pre-schools or schools in the UK.

Honestly - who the hell let these numptys gain political influence?

These twanks are 'running' our bloody country...:eek::eek::eek::mad:

It's not their anti-choice/pro-birth position I object to as much as their bloody stupid intelligence insulting statements.

Did no one say 'ummm...that bit about there being no need for schools if we introduce abortion...you do know that is the biggest load of BS yeah? I mean listen to yourself. No schools needed - ever been to England? Ever noticed the amount of children there?'

Pherekydes

aloyisious wrote: »

Meanwhile at the FF conference, Senator Leyden put this to the floor:

FF Senator: Without the right to life, you have no school
Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 10:34 AM

A Fianna Fáil Senator has used the debate on education at the party's Ard Fheis to call for a continuation of pro-life policies.

The issue of abortion is set to take centre stage at the event later with four motions demanding the party opposes legislation allowing for suicide as a grounds for a termination.

The party said it will not be bound by any of the motions, but will be guided by them.

Senator Leyden told the gathering that without pro-life policies there will not be a need for education and childcare policies.

He said: "Just to say, what is more important, pre-school schooling or the right to life?

"Without the right to life, you have no pre-schooling, you have no school.

"What I say to you is, this is the big issue of the day and we have to ensure that our policies are continued into the future, thank you."

Yep, he's right, you know. If they allow the threat of suicide as grounds for abortion then every last pregnant woman, even the ones who want children, is going to use suicide to get abortions.

And what would that lead to: no more deep thinkers like Sen Leyden.

Bannasidhe

HEALTH Minister James Reilly has been forced to withdraw his controversial proposals to have six doctors approve an abortion where there is a threat of suicide, the Irish Independent has learnt.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/six-doctors-abortion-plan-is-taken-off-table-at-talks-29225470.html

Apparently many FG TDs are ready to loose the whip over the inclusion of suicide.

They don't get it do they? They have no choice but to include a suicide clause due to this little thing called a referendum but nooooo as they know what the people of Ireland really need so can ignore those same people of Ireland when they have said what they want because what they want is wrong and our TDs know better.

Why the hell did I come back to this country...twice.

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'm not sure that actually addresses Jernal's point. As I read it, his point was this(.....) might hope for.

So, seeing as theres no significant cases in evidence, you've no real basis for stating that the existence of two versions makes any difference whatsoever in this instance. Excellent, I concur.

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/six-doctors-abortion-plan-is-taken-off-table-at-talks-29225470.html

Apparently many FG TDs are ready to loose the whip over the inclusion of suicide.

They don't get it do they? They have no choice but to include a suicide clause due to this little thing called a referendum but nooooo as they know what the people of Ireland really need so can ignore those same people of Ireland when they have said what they want because what they want is wrong and our TDs know better. .

This is going to be relevant....
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/abortion-issue-to-be-discussed-at-fianna-f%C3%A1il-ardfheis-1.1375366

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why the hell did I come back to this country...twice.

The Weather, presumably.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

The Weather, presumably.

Must have a fetish for wellies and waterproofs.

lazygal

The whole point of the x case is suicide. People have voted twice not to exclude it.


As a pregnant woman in Ireland with a daughter Terry Leyden's comments are among the most insulting. To suggest I will abort any subsequent pregnancies because of x case legislation is beyond patronising.

lazygal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Must have a fetish for wellies and waterproofs.

Handy for dealing with mudslinging.

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

Handy for dealing with mudslinging.

and building cob houses.

Sarky

How is it that they're so bloody stupid they don't know the first thing about what they're supposed to be legislating for?