Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Obliq

jank wrote: »

Exactly! Most people care about other things than abortion. If anger was THAT widespread in Ireland over the lack of legislation on abortion, then why aren't labour using it to their advantage? We all know they are going to be destroyed st the next election anyway.

That's something I'm asking my local Labour TD alright.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I found the 'I will carry my baby in my womb so they can feel my love and birth them so I can give them a cuddle even though they will then die' comments to be appalling.

Bear in mind, a lot of it is about context. I don't particularly get why parents campaigned for a stillbirths register, so they could obtain certification that a pregnancy had taken place, but then I've never had the experience, either. But it's not like there's some universal law that states "once you weigh 500 grammes, you're a person". I'd guess we all know that what we're discussing is the very stuff of where human life starts. We're not going to find one consistent set of statements about it, because there isn't one consistent set of experiences about it.

jank wrote: »

Democracy, the tyranny of the majority and the constitution is pro life so not much can be done unless a referendum is passed. Haven't heard much about one even being proposed.

I'd say the issue is deeper. This State was founded largely to give expression to a grand vision of a Catholic and rural society, which couldn't be achieved within Protestant, industrial Britain. You could argue that the Irish Republic is redundant, except as a vehicle for conservative Roman Catholics to live in a State built on their values. What alternative set of values unites any opposition to that? What aspiration do we have that couldn't be satisfied in the UK?

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

This State was founded largely to give expression to a grand vision of a Catholic and rural society, which couldn't be achieved within Protestant, industrial Britain. You could argue that the Irish Republic is redundant,
except as a vehicle for conservative Roman Catholics to live in a State built on their values. What alternative set of values unites any opposition to that? What aspiration do we have that couldn't be satisfied in the UK?

Somehow I don't think that the alternatives are confined to a "catholic and rural society" and the end of indepenence.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Bear in mind, a lot of it is about context. I don't particularly get why parents campaigned for a stillbirths register, so they could obtain certification that a pregnancy had taken place, but then I've never had the experience, either. But it's not like there's some universal law that states "once you weigh 500 grammes, you're a person". I'd guess we all know that what we're discussing is the very stuff of where human life starts. We're not going to find one consistent set of statements about it, because there isn't one consistent set of experiences about it.I'd say the issue is deeper.

The 'context' in this case is that women in Ireland do not have a choice about whether they wish to continue with a pregnancy where the fetus is not viable.
Some women may wish to continue so they can hold their child. And that is absolutely their choice but let's not pretend this is for the benefit of the 'baby' - it is not. It is for the benefit of the parent(s) - so let's be honest about that.

However, because some women choose to do this (for whatever reason) does not mean every woman in this horrible position should be forced to carry an nonviable fetus to term.

It is cruel and barbaric.

I do agree with you re: the grand vision of Holy Catholic rural Ireland.

Obliq

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'd say the issue is deeper. This State was founded largely to give expression to a grand vision of a Catholic and rural society, which couldn't be achieved within Protestant, industrial Britain. You could argue that the Irish Republic is redundant, except as a vehicle for conservative Roman Catholics to live in a State built on their values. What alternative set of values unites any opposition to that? What aspiration do we have that couldn't be satisfied in the UK?

I've been trying to explain this to my English friends living here for the last few months.

Loafing Oaf

oldrnwisr wrote: »

That would depend on what you mean by liberal. Do you mean a completely open US style abortion framework or just more liberal than the one we have now?

The poll figures suggest that a strong majority favour an expansion of abortion law outside its current confines.

A February 2013 Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll and a January 2013 Sunday Times poll both found strong support (74%, 78%) for legalising abortion in circumstances of rape or incest. A Sunday Business Post poll in November 2012 also agreed with 82% in favour.

Regarding foetal abnormalities there is also a strong majority who favour widening the current legislation of about 80%.

However, as far as an elective abortion system is concerned (i.e. abortion-on-demand/request), not so much. The polls indicate approx. 35-40% support for such a measure.

So, like I said, it depends on how liberal you want to be.

The pertinent question is not whether people would support 'abortion on demand' but whether they would vote to repeal the Eighth Amendment, which IMO is the only referendum that will be put to them henceforward. As I said upthread, I believe a majority of those who support abortion in 'hard cases' but not 'on demand' would vote to do so, and take the risk that this would ultimately lead to a more liberal abortion regime.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Nodin wrote: »

Somehow I don't think that the alternatives are confined to a "catholic and rural society" and the end of indepenence.

By all means, feel free to refine that thought into a statement.

oldrnwisr

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

The pertinent question is not whether people would support 'abortion on demand' but whether they would vote to repeal the Eighth Amendment, which IMO is the only referendum that will be put to them henceforward. As I said upthread, I believe a majority of those who support abortion in 'hard cases' but not 'on demand' would vote to do so, and take the risk that this would ultimately lead to a more liberal abortion regime.

I don't know about repealing the Eight amendment. Changing it certainly, but repealing it entirely (i.e. deleting 40.3.3) is not something any sane person should favour. In the absence of the 8th amendment we would only have the 1861 act to regulate abortion, which didn't really work all that well (e.g. Sheila Hodgers), so what we need to do is alter the text of 40.3.3 to widen the reproductive rights of women. If we repeal the 8th amendment then we're relying on legislation and we've seen this week what a complete cluster**** that's going to be.

I agree that while elective abortions would probably not find widespread support, circumstances like rape, incest, foetal viability and maternal health would all find strong support (were it to be put to the electorate).

the_syco

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Reilly: Women refused termination could face spending pregnancy in psychiatric unit

WHAT THE FÚCK

Let me rephrase that. If the doctor thinks your suicidal, but it's against their religion to allow abortion, they'll throw you into the lunatic asylum. And remember folks, once in, there's no guarantee that you'll ever be let out. Heck, the baby could be put up for adoption "for it's own protection".

Oh, and whilst you're there, clean those sheets, will ya?

Dave! wrote: »

I suspect that there is a strategy memo floating around somewhere (in Ivana Bacik's office probably ), along the lines of:

1. Legislate for X
2. ...
3. Abortions for all!

I wonder did the KKK use something like;
1. Rights for Blacks
2. ...
3. White people will turn into black people
???

Obliq

I hardly dare say it, for fear of being thick, but isn't it about time we had this debate in Ireland about what we actually want out of a republic? Most (catholic) people really don't see the way this grand vision of catholic and rural society still has us by the short and curlies. Until a debate like this legislate for x one kicks off, there is no debate about anything, ever - status quo all the way.

I'm constantly disgusted that every politician is so scared of having to answer to kneejerk religious backlash, that even one of the ones that wants change is promising me that they're at it FULL TIME behind the scenes in Europe, and Europe will force us to change. I want to see heads rolling here actually, when politicians stand up for a fcuking ideal and not just aiming to achieve the baby-steps towards a secular society.

Where IS the opposition - as you say GCU

never thought I'd say that

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Where IS the opposition -

Here in A&A.

Isn't that sad.

Loafing Oaf

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I don't know about repealing the Eight amendment. Changing it certainly, but repealing it entirely (i.e. deleting 40.3.3) is not something any sane person should favour. In the absence of the 8th amendment we would only have the 1861 act to regulate abortion, which didn't really work all that well (e.g. Sheila Hodgers), so what we need to do is alter the text of 40.3.3 to widen the reproductive rights of women. If we repeal the 8th amendment then we're relying on legislation and we've seen this week what a complete cluster**** that's going to be.

I agree that while elective abortions would probably not find widespread support, circumstances like rape, incest, foetal viability and maternal health would all find strong support (were it to be put to the electorate).

I thought the 1861 Act was being repealed as part of current legislation? Well if it's not it could easily be part of the referendum package. I thinking trying to regulate a complex and sensitive area like abortion through a blunt instrument like a Constitution is a ridiculous thing to do in any way shape or form. Once you got rid of the eighth amendment you could legislate with a blank slate and not worry about the courts finding some part of your legislation unconstitutional.

oldrnwisr

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I thought the 1861 Act was being repealed as part of current legislation? Well if it's not it could easily be part of the referendum package. I thinking trying to regulate a complex and sensitive area like abortion through a blunt instrument like a Constitution is a ridiculous thing to do in any way shape or form. Once you got rid of the eighth amendment you could legislate with a blank slate and not worry about the courts finding some part of your legislation unconstitutional.

It may be repealed, I haven't had time to read the proposed legislation fully yet. I was just saying that if the 8th amendment were repealed right now, then it would revert to the 1861 act.

The constitution may be blunt but it is important for securing basic rights. Legislation alone is far too malleable to be a proper guarantor of human rights. While legislation can give detail and provide a framework for the exact circumstances where women are allowed abortion, the basic rights need to be underpinned by the constitution.

My last point was that instead of relying solely on legislation we should alter the constitution to offer more sensible positive rights.

Dave!

the_syco wrote: »

I wonder did the KKK use something like;
1. Rights for Blacks
2. ...
3. White people will turn into black people
???

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

By all means, feel free to refine that thought into a statement.

Its self explanatory - you're presenting a false dichotomy.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Obliq wrote: »

Where IS the opposition -

Here in A&A.

Isn't that sad.

You should think in terms of quality, not quantity.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

You should think in terms of quality, not quantity.

In which case the 'quality' should be making sure we are heard above the clamour of the 'quantity'.

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

In which case the 'quality' should be making sure we are heard above the clamour of the 'quantity'.

Well that's the hard part alright. Anyone in Dublin actually want to get active now? This just in from the Abortion Rights Campaign:

"OPPORTUNITY TO GET INVOLVED:

Are you free tomorrow? Can you get to Crumlin? We have an office for a few days to run our lobbying from. There will be phone and wifi access, and other great pro-choicers around to work with! ARC can refund your bus fare if you hang on to your ticket receipts.

If you're interested and can make it, please email info@abortionrights.ie with your details (and anything else you've been involved with for the campaign!)."

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Well that's the hard part alright. Anyone in Dublin actually want to get active now? This just in from the Abortion Rights Campaign:

"OPPORTUNITY TO GET INVOLVED:

Are you free tomorrow? Can you get to Crumlin? We have an office for a few days to run our lobbying from. There will be phone and wifi access, and other great pro-choicers around to work with! ARC can refund your bus fare if you hang on to your ticket receipts.

If you're interested and can make it, please email info@abortionrights.ie with your details (and anything else you've been involved with for the campaign!)."

Can't make it to Dublin but have shared with me network.

UDP

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Reilly: Women refused termination could face spending pregnancy in psychiatric unit

WHAT THE FÚCK

I bet they will have plenty of free time in there. I wonder could we get them to clean our laundry to keep them busy? Would do them some good.

Dreamertime

We can be thankful the very restrictive impositions on the suicide threat wil stop women feigning suicide from obtaining an abortion.

Morag

Given that the legislation gives rights and protection from implantation it may make the copper coil an illegal form of contraception and it can induce a period even after implantation.

Dreamertime

Obliq wrote: »

Well that's the hard part alright. Anyone in Dublin actually want to get active now? This just in from the Abortion Rights Campaign:

"OPPORTUNITY TO GET INVOLVED:

Are you free tomorrow? Can you get to Crumlin? We have an office for a few days to run our lobbying from. There will be phone and wifi access, and other great pro-choicers around to work with! ARC can refund your bus fare if you hang on to your ticket receipts.

If you're interested and can make it, please email info@abortionrights.ie with your details (and anything else you've been involved with for the campaign!)."

I'll pass thanks

Obliq

Morag wrote: »

Given that the legislation gives rights and protection from implantation it may make the copper coil an illegal form of contraception and it can induce a period even after implantation.

Ah bollix. You're not serious, illegal?

So there'll be anti-choice men and women all over the country stressing out that they've been miscarrying a baby a month - or maybe two! Oh noes......

Turtwig

keane2097 wrote: »

As using a slippery-slope argument is disingenuous in itself, anyone who uses it can hardly complain when they're given a disingenuous response.

Dreamertime wrote: »

We can be thankful the very restrictive impositions on the suicide threat wil stop women feigning suicide from obtaining an abortion.

You do realise that in the U.K, where most women go, they have to give some sort of medical justification for the termination of their pregnancy.
Shocker it's mostly feigned.

So, really, you've got nothing to be thankful for.

Dreamertime

Jernal wrote: »

You do realise that in the U.K, where most women go, they have to give some sort of medical justification for the termination of their pregnancy.
Shocker it's mostly feigned.

So, really, you've got nothing to be thankful for.

Ireland's pro life record is a proud one and this legislation will enshrine it for many years to come.

rainbow kirby

Dreamertime wrote: »

Ireland's pro life record is a proud one.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Wait, you're serious?

Obliq

Dreamertime wrote: »

Ireland's pro life record is a proud one and this legislation will enshrine it for many years to come.

No. Speak for yourself, not for Ireland. I'm also Ireland, just as much as you are. I have as much right to say Ireland's anti-choice record is shameful. You are in the position of upholding a status quo that doesn't fit with reality, so this legislation is an ass and so is the constitutional amendment that forced it to be an ass.

Doctor Strange

Dreamertime wrote: »

Ireland's pro life record is a proud one and this legislation will enshrine it for many years to come.

Oh dear

Dreamertime

Obliq wrote: »

No. Speak for yourself, not for Ireland. I'm also Ireland, just as much as you are. I have as much right to say Ireland's anti-choice record is shameful. You are in the position of upholding a status quo that doesn't fit with reality, so this legislation is an ass and so is the constitutional amendment that forced it to be an ass.

You, Choicers, wanted X case legislation and now you have it.

I'm delighted to see the severe restrictions on the suicide threat. The floodgates won't be opening anytime soon.