Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Turtwig

Dreamertime wrote: »

Ireland's pro life record is a proud one and this legislation will enshrine it for many years to come.

Abortion, in your eyes, I presume is murder. I find it very difficult to believe that you're proud of the fact that all you've accomplished is moving a murder from one geographic location to another. If, as you believe, the foetus is a person with equal standing to that of a woman, then you are basically saying, "A murder committed in my hometown is atrocious. The exact same murder committed at my neighbours I'm proud of." Do you or do you not, care about the life of the baby? Or is a baby who makes it to the U.K no longer a baby?

Doctor Strange

Dreamertime wrote: »

You, Choicers, wanted X case legislation and now you have it.

I'm delighted to see the severe restrictions on the suicide threat. The floodgates won't be opening anytime soon.

Oh I get it, you're a parody. Thank Zod for that, thought you were serious for a moment.

Dreamertime

Jernal wrote: »

Abortion, in your eyes, I presume is murder. I find it very difficult to believe that you're proud of the fact that all you've accomplished is moving a murder from one geographic location to another. If, as you believe, the foetus is a person with equal standing to that of a woman, then you are basically saying, "A murder committed in my hometown is atrocious. The exact same murder committed at my neighbours I'm proud of." Do you or do you not, care about the life of the baby? Or is a baby who makes it to the U.K no longer a baby?

The killing of all unborn children is tragic.

What this legislation does is maintain Ireland's proud record of not condoing such depravity in this country.

Turtwig

Dreamertime wrote: »

The killing of all unborn children is tragic.

What this legislation does is maintain Ireland's proud record of not condoing such depravity in this country.

So saving lives isn't your priority; not condoning stuff is. Have I understood that correctly?

rainbow kirby

Dreamertime wrote: »

What this legislation does is maintain Ireland's proud record of not condoing such depravity in this country.

Proud record of sacrificing women's lives/health for the sake of a foetus which may or may not be viable? :rolleyes:

Dreamertime

Jernal wrote: »

So saving lives isn't your priority; not condoning stuff is. Have I understood that correctly?

No.

Dreamertime

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Proud record of sacrificing women's lives/health for the sake of a foetus which may or may not be viable? :rolleyes:

But you have your X case legislation. Whats the problem?

Turtwig

Dreamertime wrote: »

No.

No. ..?
Care to help me out then. What is your actual position? You won't condone abortions but you don't want to prevent them either? I'm really struggling to grasp your logic here. What is the difference between the same abortion carried out in Ireland instead of England? The same baby is going to perish anyway.

oldrnwisr

Dreamertime wrote: »

Ireland's pro life record is a proud one and this legislation will enshrine it for many years to come.

I have to say I'm terribly confused by your post.

As Jernal points out, all that has really been achieved in the last couple of decades is the export of the problem to another country. The abortions are still happening.

As far as record goes, I'm not sure how Ireland has a pro-life record, much less a proud one. Since the introduction of the eight amendment, the voting record and expressed will of the population has been for a more liberal legislative environment on abortion. The only thing that has maintained the status quo is 20 years of political procrastination.

Also, a country like Ireland which ostensibly maintains a ban on abortion still can't manage to put its extra resources into developing a healthcare system which is truly pro-life. The level of maternal deaths in Ireland is still higher than other countries where abortion is freely available.

So, ultimately, insofar as recent history could be called a coherent record of any kind, its far from pride we should be feeling.

Dreamertime

Jernal wrote: »

No. ..?
Care to help me out then. What is your actual position? You won't condone abortions but you don't want to prevent them either? I'm really struggling to grasp your logic here. What is the difference between the same abortion carried out in Ireland instead of England? The same baby is going to perish anyway.

I can do nothing to prevent abortions in foreign jurisdictions.

Dreamertime

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I have to say I'm terribly confused by your post.

As Jernal points out, all that has really been achieved in the last couple of decades is the export of the problem to another country. The abortions are still happening.

As far as record goes, I'm not sure how Ireland has a pro-life record, much less a proud one. Since the introduction of the eight amendment, the voting record and expressed will of the population has been for a more liberal legislative environment on abortion. The only thing that has maintained the status quo is 20 years of political procrastination.

Also, a country like Ireland which ostensibly maintains a ban on abortion still can't manage to put its extra resources into developing a healthcare system which is truly pro-life. The level of maternal deaths in Ireland is still higher than other countries where abortion is freely available.

So, ultimately, insofar as recent history could be called a coherent record of any kind, its far from pride we should be feeling.

Abortion is an evil stain on humanity.

Ireland's proud record in not adding to the silent holocaust of unborn innocence is clear for all to see.

This legislation could have lead to abortion on demand through the suicide threat.

However the six doctor hurdle should prevent this.

Doctor Strange

Dreamertime wrote: »

Abortion is an evil stain on humanity.

Ireland's proud record in not adding to the silent holocaust of unborn innocence is clear for all to see.

Thise legislation could have lead to abortion on demand through the suicide threat.

However the six doctor hurdle should prevent this.

Turtwig

Dreamertime wrote: »

Ireland's proud record in not adding to the silent holocaust of unborn innocence is clear for all to see.

Right so if the holocaust took place in London instead of Auschwitz it wouldn't actually be a holocaust.

oldrnwisr

Dreamertime wrote: »

Abortion is an evil stain on humanity.

Ireland's proud record in not adding to the silent holocaust of unborn innocence is clear for all to see.

Thise legislation could have lead to abortion on demand through the suicide threat.

However the six doctor hurdle should prevent this.

That's not answering my question. That's just an appeal to emotion using needlessly provocative language.

Let me make it simpler for you:

How does the voting/polling record of the last 20 years constitute a pro-life record?

How does Ireland's inability to maintain a suitably low maternal death rate constitute a proud record?

Delirium

Dreamertime wrote: »

Abortion is an evil stain on humanity.

Ireland's proud record in not adding to the silent holocaust of unborn innocence is clear for all to see.

Thise legislation could have lead to abortion on demand through the suicide threat.

However the six doctor hurdle should prevent this.

Irish women are adding to the "silent holocaust" by travelling abroad to get an abortion. So the claim Ireland isn't adding to it is an incorrect one.

Obliq

koth wrote: »

Irish women are adding to the "silent holocaust" by travelling abroad to get an abortion. So the claim Ireland isn't adding to it is an incorrect one.

Exactly.

Dreamertime wrote: »

You, Choicers, wanted X case legislation and now you have it.

I'm delighted to see the severe restrictions on the suicide threat. The floodgates won't be opening anytime soon.

You have come up here crowing about how restrictive this legislation will be, in the full knowledge that you are distancing one side of opinion from the other still further. Do you believe (as you seem to) that you, as an anti-choice person, have more right to your opinion than the likes of me? In alienating the more marginalised opinion, you do us some favour actually. It's my belief that the more right wing you become, the more you alienate the Catholic "faithful" that are only hanging on in there by virtue of having been born to the faith. Good luck keeping them strong by threats of eternal damnation.....

Dreamertime wrote: »

I can do nothing to prevent abortions in foreign jurisdictions.

To hold the beliefs that you purport to have, you should be at the airports checking for women looking worried and reporting women to the authorities for murder. It's ok if it's abroad yeah? Nice one. Great morals.

Dreamertime

oldrnwisr wrote: »

That's not answering my question. That's just an appeal to emotion using needlessly provocative language.

Let me make it simpler for you:

How does the voting/polling record of the last 20 years constitute a pro-life record?

How does Ireland's inability to maintain a suitably low maternal death rate constitute a proud record?

Marie Stopes gets no business on Irish soil. That makes me damn proud.

Our conservative laws on abortion has meant no Irish unborn babies being killed in Irish institutions.

It really is that simple.

Dreamertime

koth wrote: »

Irish women are adding to the "silent holocaust" by travelling abroad to get an abortion. So the claim Ireland isn't adding to it is an incorrect one.

Sadly Irish babies are being exterminated in British death chambers.

Obliq

Dreamertime wrote: »

Marie Stopes gets no business on Irish soil. That makes me damn proud.

Our conservative laws on abortion has meant no Irish unborn babies being killed in Irish institutions.

It really is that simple.

Yup, that's pretty damn simple.

DOH!

Dreamertime

Obliq wrote: »

You have come up here crowing about how restrictive this legislation will be, in the full knowledge that you are distancing one side of opinion from the other still further.

You have your X case legislation. Whats the problem now?

The Black Oil

The Black Oil wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/pro-life-gr...92142-May2013/

The Life Institute said Fine Gael had ‘caved in’ to Labour on abortion, with spokeswoman Niamh Uí Bhriain saying the absence of any provision on term limits would “horrify the Irish people”.

“We’ve seen the horrors of the Kermit Gosnell case in the US in recent weeks, and just how horrific late term abortions are,” she said.
“Fine Gael made a deal with Labour – ‘Support our austerity measure, and we’ll give you abortion’, but it is Fine Gael who will now become known as the abortion party,” she said.

“Labour represent less than 10% of the people now according to polls, yet they are deciding for the whole country on this issue of life and death.”

Youth Defence said Enda Kenny would be “forever known as the Abortion Taoiseach” while his Fine Gael party would be perceived as being whipped on the issue “by abortion extremists in the Labour Party”.

The Black Oil wrote: »

Ridiculous, but unsurprising hyperbole here.

I've sent this off (were it a proper attempt to contact them I'd be more eloquent, and stick to better grammar) just to see if they will respond. I've a feeling they'll respond with 'language is not the real issue, killing babies is!!!!!'

Hello,

I'm contacting you in relation to some comments that have been reported by some media outlets. Here is a link - http://www.thejournal.ie/pro-life-groups-proposals-go-too-far-pro-choice-bill-doesnt-go-far-enough-892142-May2013/

Firstly let me say that I believe in a woman's right to choose but that is not why I am contacting you. I would also state that I do not have any political affiliations nor have I met anyone from either side of the discussion lobbying one way or another.

My concern is around the language used by Niamh Uí Bhriain. Her comments seem designed to solely to serve one purpose which is attacking Fine Gael purely for the sake of doing so. If The Life Institute is so interested in politics why not set up a party? None of us were privy to the discussions held by the government so by what charge can your organisation allege any connection with austerity? If you want to discuss the real issues that is fine, but is it necessary to play silly games with political optics purely so you can fire off some hyperbolic charge? You may perceive that I am being politically correct but that is not the case and please don't worry as I am not afraid of robust debate. But frankly your approach on messaging alone is a sad simplistic and not useful. We need cooler heads surely?

Best Regards,

keane2097

Does anyone not think Dreamertime is Silvio Dante?

Delirium

Dreamertime wrote: »

Sadly Irish babies are being exterminated in British death chambers.

Hyperbole aside, are you now in agreement that Ireland does add to the number of abortions?

Are you opposed to abortion even when the child will not survive long outside of the womb?

B0jangles

keane2097 wrote: »

Does anyone not think Dreamertime is Silvio Dante?

Not unless Silvio's undergone a smilyectomy.

Obliq

Dreamertime wrote: »

You have your X case legislation. Whats the problem now?

Ha! Ta for the lols.....I love when you go about alienating people. Tis amusing, when there's little enough about this situation to find funny.

Morag

Dreamertime wrote: »

Marie Stopes gets no business on Irish soil. That makes me damn proud.

Yes they do they have a family planning clinic here, which their primary business.

Dreamertime wrote: »

Our conservative laws on abortion has meant no Irish unborn babies being killed in Irish institutions.

Nope the masters of the rotunda and Holles st confirmed at between 20 and 30 abortions are preformed here every year and that does not include those for ectopic pregnancies.

Turtwig

Dreamertime wrote: »

Marie Stopes gets no business on Irish soil. That makes me damn proud.

Our conservative laws on abortion has meant no Irish unborn babies being killed in Irish institutions.

It really is that simple.

Ok Dreamer sticking on my mod hat here for a moment.
You're verging on soapboxing and not actually offering any constructive replies to the questions posed to you by posters.

Can you answer these questions or not?

oldrnwisr wrote: »

How does the voting/polling record of the last 20 years constitute a pro-life record?

How does Ireland's inability to maintain a suitably low maternal death rate constitute a proud record?

Dreamertime

koth wrote: »

Hyperbole aside, are you now in agreement that Ireland does add to the number of abortions?

Are you opposed to abortion even when the child will not survive long outside of the womb?

Every life it precious and deserving of our respect whether that life lasts a day, a year or a century.

Dreamertime

Morag wrote: »

Nope the masters of the rotunda and Holles st confirmed at between 20 and 30 abortions are preformed here every year and that does not include those for ectopic pregnancies.

Terminations are obviously carried out in situations where necessary under the current Medical Council guidelines.

Dreamertime

Now that X will be legislated for in the near future.

What do you want now?