Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Bobby42

Obliq wrote: »

Express it in cold, hard and calculated organisation. I was in trouble yesterday with the sadness that comes from feeling helpless. Now I'm mobilising the troops. Get to it peeps.

As soon as my exams are finished next week I'm getting involved, there's usually something on one of the facebook pages to go along to.

I just cant sit by and watch women be put through this barbaric cruelty.

StudentDad

Can anyone give me a good reason why anyone should care what Mr. Brady has to say on this issue?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-proposed-abortion-law-morally-unacceptable-1.1381715

SD

Delirium

Bobby42 wrote: »

Its so unbelievably removed from human emotion.

I saw someone tweet youth defence a video of birth of a baby with anencephaly.

I actually couldn't press play, the unimaginable horror. Imagine being forced to carry a baby to term, in some hospice? And if the mother doesn't do this, she doesn't value her child?

It beyond sick. Its completely devoid of all reason, humanity and morality.

Imagine being forced to give birth to a baby without a brain and then keeping the baby alive until it naturally dies. That is just unimaginable horror.

I cant express how angry this sick and twisted view of life makes me.

The doctor incorrectly stated that all states other than Ireland and Malta allow for euthanasia. Only the BeNeLux (Belgium, Netherlands +Luxembourg) allow for it. And I think Switzerland allows for assisted suicide. None of the other EU states allow for assisted suicide or euthanasia.

Nodin

StudentDad wrote: »

Can anyone give me a good reason why anyone should care what Mr. Brady has to say on this issue?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-proposed-abortion-law-morally-unacceptable-1.1381715

SD

Only in respect of how it might get in the way.

The Swear To Silence specialist will be on RTE in a few minutes.

StudentDad

Nodin wrote: »

Only in respect of how it might get in the way.

The Swear To Silence specialist will be on RTE in a few minutes.

One of the things that irritates the hell out of me is the term 'Catholic Hosptials' in the piece. Why oh why are unaccountable religious groups still pulling strings in our hospitals? When/if this legislation gets passed Irish hospitals will have to adhere to the law or will Mr. Brady and his ilk try and get a 'special exemption' from the legislation.

I will rejoice when the day arrives when we have our key infrastructure in the form of hospitals, schools and universities out from under the thumb of unelected, unaccountable religious groups.

SD

Bannasidhe

Apparently under the propose legislation one can be jailed for up to 14 years for helping someone get 'abortion' pills.

Sooo - I have posted a link on FB to an organisation in the UK which supplies same. Better jail me ye bastards as I'm gonna keep doing it!

I can't believe, having spent the 80s living in London supplying Irish women with info on abortions that here I am - 30 years later - still supplying Irish women with information denied them.

:mad:

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sooo - I have posted a link on FB to an organisation in the UK which supplies same. Better jail me ye bastards as I'm gonna keep doing it!

:mad:

Good woman. Off to do the very same thing. Jail me and all :P

Turtwig

Sierra 117 wrote: »

How is she a doctor? How can anyone who comes up with such utter ****e be a doctor? Post-birth abortions? Absolutely mind-boggling.

She might in fact be a top quality doctor who just holds extremely wayward opinions on one issue. It's not uncommon for a person deeply skilled at something to be completely ignorant about something else. Health professionals are just like any other kind of professional they may hold qualifications but they may also hold idiotic views.They may be the best in the world at their chosen area of expertise or they may be completely incompetent. The point is she is a doctor because somewhere someday she got the qualifications that made her one.

Bannasidhe

Jernal wrote: »

She might in fact be a top quality doctor who just holds extremely wayward opinions on one issue. It's not uncommon for a person deeply skilled at something to be completely ignorant about something else. Health professionals are just like any other kind of professional they may hold qualifications but they may also hold idiotic views.They may be the best in the world at their chosen area of expertise or they may be completely incompetent. The point is she is a doctor because somewhere someday she got the qualifications that made her one.

Berry Kiely is a Paediatrician who is willing to see a child come into this world in pain with no hope of relief save death.

Life at all costs devoid of mercy or compassion seems to be her thinking. Wouldn't want someone like that caring for my grandkids.

One can't help wonder if she would support terminally ill children going though the torture of chemo and radiotherapy (and having been through it I know of what I speak) just to keep them alive - in agony with no quality of life and no hope of recovery - even when the child doesn't want it.

Will she insist on children being kept 'alive' by artificial means even in a vegetative state?

Seems to me that is the same as insisting that a child with anencephaly be carried to term.

Bobby42

It really is birth at all costs and above all else.

Babies MUST be born regardless of incompatability with life,
regardless of the wishes of the mother,
regardless of the potential mental trauma to the mother,
regardless of the horrific existence the baby will suffer.

I wonder if she's against life support machines being turned off or "do not resuscitate" wishes?

Its nearly like a god complex. "I'm the doctor, only I decide when someone gets to die".

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Corkfeen wrote: »

Just watched the Prime Time segment. Apparently everywhere in Europe besides Ireland and Malta have no respect for life. She was horrible to that woman even though she said she wished no bad will upon her. Seriously, some of these people appear to have no empathy whatsoever. The constant rubbish that they spout is really beginning to piss me off.

It was hard to watch, but it is precisely the kind of debate we've needed. It shouldn't be necessary to do this. It shouldn't be necessary to sit a pro-lifer down in a chair and face her with a woman who has had exactly the kind of experience that demonstrates that legislating for X isn't enough. Even if we want to have a very limited abortion regime, X isn't enough.

Taking one positive from the discussion, at least the Consultant seemed to have provided unambiguous advice. But the plain fact that the staff of the Irish hospital were unable to offer even proper liaison with the hospital in the UK spoke volumes, IMHO, about the inadequacy of what the law permits, compared to what is demanded in real life situations.

aloyisious

It's crozier-time again for the politicians (naughty Irish proles - the great unwashed) so we'll scare Jesus into the Leinster House mob and get them to give the Vatican the answer it want's.

Cardinal says politicians have an ‘obligation’ to oppose abortion.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/cardinal-says-politicians-have-an-obligation-to-oppose-abortion-1.1381715

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

It was hard to watch, but it is precisely the kind of debate we've needed. It shouldn't be necessary to do this. It shouldn't be necessary to sit a pro-lifer down in a chair and face her with a woman who has had exactly the kind of experience that demonstrates that legislating for X isn't enough. Even if we want to have a very limited abortion regime, X isn't enough.

Taking one positive from the discussion, at least the Consultant seemed to have provided unambiguous advice. But the plain fact that the staff of the Irish hospital were unable to offer even proper liaison with the hospital in the UK spoke volumes, IMHO, about the inadequacy of what the law permits, compared to what is demanded in real life situations.

Do stop saying things I completely agree with...it's very disconcerting.

swampgas

aloyisious wrote: »

It's crozier-time again for the politicians (naughty Irish proles - the great unwashed) so we'll scare Jesus into the Leinster House mob and get them to give the Vatican the answer it want's.

Cardinal says politicians have an ‘obligation’ to oppose abortion.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/cardinal-says-politicians-have-an-obligation-to-oppose-abortion-1.1381715

This (all too predictably) makes my blood boil. Would these child-rapist protecting, compensation-dodging, anti-sex, anti-divorce, anti-everything dinosaurs just stop sticking their noses in? And would the Irish people finally tell them where to get off?

Turtwig

swampgas wrote: »

And would the Irish people finally tell them where to get off?

They're not allowed to get off.;)

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do stop saying things I completely agree with...it's very disconcerting.

Of course, history may well show that only Ireland and Malta had the right balance in approaching this difficult issue. Certainly, these countries deserve great credit for having the courage to stand by their principles and do what they feel is right. And, who knows, maybe there's a special reward waiting for those who have suffered in this life. Those who experience suffering are sharing, in a real sense, the suffering of Jesus on the Cross. Without suffering, there can be no joy. Without joy, there is no hope. Without hope, there can be no redemption. Without redemption, we cannot be saved.

Changing the subject a little, how is it that no-one seemed to mind when Bob Marley went on about religion?

jill_valentine

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Of course, history may well show that only Ireland and Malta had the right balance in approaching this difficult issue. Certainly, these countries deserve great credit for having the courage to stand by their principles and do what they feel is right. And, who knows, maybe there's a special reward waiting for those who have suffered in this life. Those who experience suffering are sharing, in a real sense, the suffering of Jesus on the Cross. Without suffering, there can be no joy. Without joy, there is no hope. Without hope, there can be no redemption. Without redemption, we cannot be saved.

Changing the subject a little, how is it that no-one seemed to mind when Bob Marley went on about religion?

Because the only people listening to him were stoned and or students?

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

Meantime now the head of the RC Church in Ireland is giving his views live on air on RTE radio news on the proposed legislation and all it includes, including his views on those who are to vote on it. He claim's that the legislation will have a contrary effect on those RC staffing Hospitals here, reducing their religious-belief rights.

Good.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Apparently under the propose legislation one can be jailed for up to 14 years for helping someone get 'abortion' pills.

Sooo - I have posted a link on FB to an organisation in the UK which supplies same. Better jail me ye bastards as I'm gonna keep doing it!

Subject to mod approval, we should all put it in our sigs, shades of 21 years ago when one could be jailed for a phone number... :mad:

Jernal wrote: »

She might in fact be a top quality doctor who just holds extremely wayward opinions on one issue. It's not uncommon for a person deeply skilled at something to be completely ignorant about something else.

I'm sorry, but if her judgment is that skewed on that issue it has to call into question her judgment on any issue. It's clear that she looks at professional issues through a heavily tinted conservative catholic prism, to me that is not compatible with putting the patient's interests first.

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

......

Changing the subject a little, how is it that no-one seemed to mind when Bob Marley went on about religion?

Nobody had a bog's notion of the details and as he seemed ok with weed, he was given a pass.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Of course, history may well show that only Ireland and Malta had the right balance in approaching this difficult issue. Certainly, these countries deserve great credit for having the courage to stand by their principles and do what they feel is right. And, who knows, maybe there's a special reward waiting for those who have suffered in this life. Those who experience suffering are sharing, in a real sense, the suffering of Jesus on the Cross. Without suffering, there can be no joy. Without joy, there is no hope. Without hope, there can be no redemption. Without redemption, we cannot be saved.

Changing the subject a little, how is it that no-one seemed to mind when Bob Marley went on about religion?

May we be saved from religion.

Marley - perhaps because Rastafarianism doesn't have a 'special relationship' with any country. They are not much liked by the authorities in Jamaica.
But, having spent many a night in my youth 'reasoning'* with actual real Rastas** I think it's just as bat**** crazy as every other religion.



*'Reasoning' is the name given to dialogue sessions Rastafarians have where life, death, morals, ethics etc etc are freely discussed...with added munchies.

** Lot more to being a Rasta than having dreadlocks. There are strict dietary and hygiene (no chemicals) 'laws' plus adherence to strict gender roles that made me twitch.

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Good woman. Off to do the very same thing. Jail me and all :P

Looking at the number of people who have shared my original link (yourself included) the craic in jail is only going to be mighty.

We even have a certified sword master...:cool:

Kiwi in IE

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The problem with removing the 8th Amendment, as odious as it is, is that as someone else has outlined (probably oldrnwisr) that leaves us vulnerable to a, let's just say, Lucinda Creighton-led government that makes all abortions illegal. Our political leaders are from a generation when we all bowed to the tyranny of the Church.

Will it ever change? Lucinda Creighton is my age! I have met a disproportionate amount of very religious people of my own age here. In New Zealand of all the people I was friends with (although obviously ones closest friends are usually like minded people), went to school and college with, and worked with throughout my life, overtly religious people were a very small minority.

Bannasidhe

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Will it ever change? Lucinda Creighton is my age! I have met a disproportionate amount of very religious people of my own age here. In New Zealand of all the people I was friends with (although obviously ones closest friends are usually like minded people), went to school and college with, and worked with throughout my life, overtly religious people were a very small minority.

There seems to be this strong undercurrent ('a rip' to be antipodean about it) in the Irish national psyche that if we are not all strictly controlled we will loose the run of our selves and be 'gay' marriaging our family pets, getting pregnant just to claim we are suicidal and demand an abortion...

I think this is why 'we' all have to pay the debts incurred by 'us all' during the days of the Celtic Tiger - collective punishment because some of 'us' lost the run of themselves so we must all pay.

Personal responsibility is a rare thing in Ireland - and I say this as an Irish person.

MrPudding

Morag wrote: »

The 8th amendment actually lessens my rights as a citizen, it doesn't protect me, it puts me, my health and life at risk.
Men have the right to all the medical treatment they need, I don't.

StudentDad wrote: »

It's arguable (no constitutional crisis yet anyway) that if such provisions were removed from the Irish Constitution, the European Courts could find such legislation to be in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights.

It could also be argued that the Irish Constitution is irrelevant anyway as all national laws are subservient to EC law. It hasn't been an issue yet simply because the ECJ hasn't pulled rank in that matter yet, they promised not to.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the European Parliament legalised abortion within the EU
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Recommendation+to+legalize+abortion+approved.+(European+Union).-a099289900

That was in 2002 and chances are it won't happen but ....


SD

I think the rush to do away with the constitution is a little premature. Whilst the UK does not have a written constitution, per se, it does kind of have a constitution. Parts of it are written here and there, parts of it exist in the common law and parts of it exist by convention, but it is arguable that there is a constitution there... somewhere. There are calls in the UK for there to be a written constitution, and I would support that.

A constitution is an incredibly important document for the citizens of a state, and once you have one i don't think you should get rid of it. The 8th amendment is, IMO, something that should be repealed, but this is not a simple matter. It meed to be repealed and replaced with something more appropriate. I don't think it would be wise to have the control of woman's reproductive rights built of the whims of a particular government, which is what they would be if it was left to legislation. Even if legislation was passed that gave woman total control any future government could simply repeal that legislation.

We need a constitution and we need it to say the right thing and give the correct rights to the correct citizens.

SD, with respect to the EU. I think it will be a long, long time for us to wait for a solution from them. The EU has powers in limited areas and things like abortion and same sex marriage, for example, are considered to be within the margins of appreciation for the individual states. I would love to be wrong, but I would not expect them to push abortion, or indeed same sex marriage, any time soon.

MrP

Loafing Oaf

MrPudding wrote: »

The 8th amendment is, IMO, something that should be repealed, but this is not a simple matter. It meed to be repealed and replaced with something more appropriate. I don't think it would be wise to have the control of woman's reproductive rights built of the whims of a particular government, which is what they would be if it was left to legislation. Even if legislation was passed that gave woman total control any future government could simply repeal that legislation.

Does any other western democracy address reproductive rights in their constitutions? And in those that don't, are there serious concerns that a new government, even a strongly right-wing one, would introduce seriously restrictive laws on abortion, contraception, sterilisation etc? The reason there aren't is that any political party that tried to spring something like that on their electorate would be automatically finished as a political force. IMO the Irish people are nearly as liberal as everyone else on these issues by now, so I don't see why we should have such concerns either.

Kiwi in IE

It amazes me how many people are very overtly religious. I have only lived in NZ and Ireland as an adult, so NZ is all I have to subjectively compare Ireland to. There are obviously religious people in every country, but the difference I find most striking is that in NZ most (certainly not all) of them would be more hesitant to start spouting religious nonsense in a public or professional forum as they have enough insight to realise there may be a possibility that the 34% of the population who self declare atheist, agnostic or no religion, might consider them slightly less than holistically competent.

Sure they carry on however they like in their own homes, churches and with their social peers. If asked, such people would freely declare what religion they are, but there is very little spontaneous talk of religion to strangers. You would not expect to take your pet to the local vet for example and see religious paraphernalia plastered all over the walls and then be told by the vet to 'keep praying' that your cat's broken leg will heal properly (I particularly liked the assumption that I had obviously already started praying, as evidenced by the word 'keep'). You wouldn't expect to go into the offices of a multi partnered law firm and be met with a large crucifix on the wall. To be honest it immediately puts me off using the services of these professionals and motivates me to seek alternatives.

I may be wrong here, and probably am, but particularly with the vet I wondered how much he actually trusted in medical treatment to cure the animal compared to his obvious belief that it's 'all in God's hands'. It plants a seed of doubt in my mind and prejudice or not, I lost a small amount of faith in his professionalism. If however I had found out from an outside source that this vet is devoutly religious, but had not been confronted with it several times in his practice, I wouldn't have any issue with it.

It seems to be the opposite here. People who are obviously agnostic, atheist or at the least non catholic, still self declare that they are Catholic and are for some reason apprehensive to be honest. I really couldn't give a fig for the opinions of the religious on atheisim. Given their beliefs, which I think are irrational at best, their opinions of mine are totally irrelevant to me.

Kiwi in IE

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Does any other western democracy address reproductive rights in their constitutions? And in those that don't, are there serious concerns that a new government, even a strongly right-wing one, would introduce seriously restrictive laws on abortion, contraception, sterilisation etc? The reason there aren't is that any political party that tried to spring something like that on their electorate would be automatically finished as a political force. IMO the Irish people are nearly as liberal as everyone else on these issues by now, so I don't see why we should have such concerns either.

I am not sure about other western democracies but New Zealand has no written constitution. There is no concern at all. In order for a political party to get a seat in parliament the need to either win a constituency seat or get 5% of the party vote. Not a hope in hell if they are spouting that crap.

We are less at risk of that sort of thing happening as there is no religious monogamy, as there is here. The two largest denominations, Anglican and Catholic, make up only around 15% of the population each. Even together they are still outnumbered by the 34ish% with no religion. Within those who declare they are a religion, not all of them will be practising or conform to the opinions of the church they claim to belong.

Right wing conservative politicians or parties do not get far. The party considered to be the most right wing is one called ACT. They are economically right wing (cutting benefits, public funding, tax etc) but are very socially liberal. Basically they are what is referred to as 'New Right', advocating laissez-faire economic policies but also that individual rights and freedoms are paramount.

StudentDad

MrPudding wrote: »

SD, with respect to the EU. I think it will be a long, long time for us to wait for a solution from them. The EU has powers in limited areas and things like abortion and same sex marriage, for example, are considered to be within the margins of appreciation for the individual states. I would love to be wrong, but I would not expect them to push abortion, or indeed same sex marriage, any time soon.

MrP

Well the UK does have a constitution, it doesn't need to be written down. Frankly the written constitution is too restrictive and binds the hands of govt. to the point of ridiculousness. We elect govt. to govern. The Irish Constitution is a relic of an era long past. It's a straightjacket.

As regards abortion at a European level. All that would take would be for the European Parliament in conjunction with the Commission etc etc and we have abortion. EC law already trumps national laws, including national Constitutions. It would cause alot of wailing and gnashing of teeth here in Ireland, which is why to be honest I find the whole Irish Constitution bit totally redundant.

All that aside I find it totally ridiculous that a woman who is a European Citizen cannot avail of a medical procedure freely available in other member states within the confines of her own member state.

SD

MrPudding

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Does any other western democracy address reproductive rights in their constitutions? And in those that don't, are there serious concerns that a new government, even a strongly right-wing one, would introduce seriously restrictive laws on abortion, contraception, sterilisation etc? The reason there aren't is that any political party that tried to spring something like that on their electorate would be automatically finished as a political force. IMO the Irish people are nearly as liberal as everyone else on these issues by now, so I don't see why we should have such concerns either.

Directly? I don't know. But just because something is not specifically addressed or mentioned in a constitution does not mean one cannot have a constitutional right to that thing.

In the US, for example, there is no specific mention in the constitution that tells us that women have a right to an abortion, but, in the US a woman's right to an abortion is rooted in the 14th Amendment.

I am not necessarily arguing that there needs to be an abortion clause in the Irish Constitution, I am saying:

1. The constitution is an important document that we should keep and not ditch because a particular clause is not to our liking.
2. If a particular clause has an effect we don't like, then we should try to have it repealed.
3. I would prefer a right to be granted by, or at least derived from, the constitution rather than by government made legislation as the constitution give more protection and is more difficult for any future government to change.

With respect to point 3. I take onboard your point that the Irish people are generally liberal, but we still can't trust the government to act as the people might want. Who wants a blasphemy law? Even look at this proposed legislation we are discussing here. Surveys show that the majority of the people in Ireland will not be happy with this.


Most "new" countries have a constitution, particularly when the people have been previously controlled by a not so benevolent government.



All that said, it may be the case in Ireland, given how the constitution has been interpreted in the past and how it is currently written, that there may need to be a specific amendment granting women control of their own reproductive rights, but is that really a bad thing? The purpose of a constitution, in addition to limiting the power of the government, is to grant and protect those rights of the citizens that are deemed so important that they should not be at the whim of the government. Would it really be so bad for a woman's right to control her own body to be given this status?

MrP

Obliq

Totally with ya there Mr. P