Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Turtwig

Sarky's comment in t'other thread reminded me of this.

aloyisious

No welcome mat at the door. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cardinal-keeps-excommunication-threat-hanging-over-abortion-tds-29242992.html

HurtLocker

aloyisious wrote: »

No welcome mat at the door. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cardinal-keeps-excommunication-threat-hanging-over-abortion-tds-29242992.html

I always had this notion that rte was covering this topic... weirdly.
In the indo it talks of the threat of excommunication. It is not even mentioned on rte news. Further food to feed my irrational notion that rte are making the prolifers seem as sane as possible, and make the churches power/influence look greater than it really has to scare politicians into thinking the majority will never vote for the party which legalises abortion it even in its current backward form.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0504/390390-knock-prayer-pregnancy/

Just look at the current headlines on rte


Not one pro choice article or the pros of abortion abortion article.But of the 6 main topics 2 are on the church's view. That's a third. Not even one pro choice article :mad: or heck one other non church abortion article.

Another thread on here asks why we can't have a rational debate on abortion. I blame rte. And with their determination to quote the church on every single six-one about some "morally wrong" bs said by some peodo coverer at some event organised and attended by "mobilised" pro-lifers.

Some days I really want to stick my head in a bucket of petrol and set it on fire :mad:

Obliq

Self immoliation is not the answer - you'll be too dead to fight back

But I hear ya.

Obliq

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/prolifers-devalue-the-life-they-treasure-29243102.html

"Distress and disrespect are piled on the grief of women such as Sarah McGuinness – in order to vindicate laws that are formally 'pro-life', but lacking in the humanity without which life is meaningless. That there should be any question raised that McGuinness doesn't "cherish and respect all human lives" is offensive.

In recent weeks, Enda Kenny has had to cobble together legislation that meets the legal needs of the Constitutional mess – but as nearly as possible accords with the 'pro-life' feelings of his TDs and senators. In this political manoeuvre, what matters most is damage limitation."

magicbastarder

i think this is brilliant. so over one shoulder, the TDs might have the party whip eyeing up their actions closely, and over the other shoulder, they have the church whip eyeing them up. so they may have to choose between party and church. i think this could be glorious - are you willing to be a modern parliamentarian, or a proxy for the church? cos you can't be both.

chughes

I just saw this article in the Sunday Independent about the threat of excommunication by Cardinal Brady against TD's who vote in favour of the Abortion Bill.

I'm not often gobsmacked by the utterances of the Church but this one floored me. This man Brady, who swore two youngers to secrecy over abuses that were performed on them, has the barefaced cheek to threaten excommunication while being part of the cover up of his own organisation's wrongdoing.

I really hope the vote goes massively in favour as it will show Brady and his ilk that their relevance in rapidly declining.

Shower of bloody hypocrites.

Delirium

chughes wrote: »

I just saw this article in the Sunday Independent about the threat of excommunication by Cardinal Brady against TD's who vote in favour of the Abortion Bill.

I'm not often gobsmacked by the utterances of the Church but this one floored me. This man Brady, who swore two youngers to secrecy over abuses that were performed on them, has the barefaced cheek to threaten excommunication while being part of the cover up of his own organisation's wrongdoing.

I really hope the vote goes massively in favour as it will show Brady and his ilk that their relevance in rapidly declining.

Shower of bloody hypocrites.

Interesting to see that the "moral leaders" aren't beyond blackmail to get their way.

Obliq

This statement from Galway Pro-choice on face book spells it out nicely:

Draft legislation on the X case proves that the Irish “Pro-Life” regime is completely impracticable and value-free.

Section 19 of the draft legislation leaves no doubt that abortion is to be regarded a grievous crime that warrants extreme punishment:

“(1) It shall be an offence for a person to do any act with the intent to destroy unborn human life.

A person who is guilty of an offence under this head is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years or both.”

Yet, Section 13 of the same document assures us:

“This Act does not operate to restrict any person from travelling to another state on the ground that his or her intended conduct there would, if occurred in the State, constitute an offence under head 19 of this Act.”

In other words, while our legislators value unborn life so much that they are willing to lock away women who choose abortion for over a decade, this concern evaporates entirely if the woman is able to leave the country and avail of the procedure elsewhere. Imagine a similar provision in the law on rape or homicide, which affirms that nothing shall prevent any person from travelling to another state with the intent to rape or murder somebody there. This is a law that explicitly spells out its own loopholes and invites those with the necessary means to take advantage of it.

Legal schizophrenia like this proves that the protection of “unborn life” in Irish law is completely value-free. If the government was truly serious about protecting foetuses from abortion, much more drastic measures would be required. Women would need to be subjected to mandatory pregnancy tests at the airport. Any women suspected of seeking an abortion would have to be placed under administrative detention until birth. Violators would have to be punished to the full extent of the law.

Of course, such a dystopian regime could never come about, because it would rightly horrify the vast majority of Irish people. Unless we are willing to live in a repressive police state, the protection of “unborn life” is completely unenforceable.

However, the Irish ban on abortion is not really meant to protect “unborn life”. Its true purpose is to appease a powerful fundamentalist minority that clings to the illusory ideal of “abortion-free Ireland”. Since the X case, these people have resigned themselves to the fact that they cannot prevent Irish women from having abortions outside the country, so their goal now is to ensure that at least all those women who are unable to travel will be forced to give birth. In short: This country makes women suffer for the peace of mind of fundamentalists.

Let us not rest until the ban on abortion is abolished in its entirety and women in Ireland are free to make autonomous decisions about their reproduction and their destiny!

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But, having spent many a night in my youth 'reasoning'* with actual real Rastas** I think it's just as bat**** crazy as every other religion.

I don't doubt. I know damn all about the faith, apart from it having something to do with the Emperor of Ethiopia being God. But, as I still like the music, the thought came to me as I only recently really noticed the line in Redemption Song "Some say it's just a part of it, We've got to fulfil the book", and thought to myself that's a sentiment that, in other contexts, we'd probably deride as a poor attempt to reconcile practical experience of hardship with the idea of a special relationship with a divinity.

Yet, he'd get away with it. A roomful of teenagers, most of whom had ceased to darken the door of a Church, wouldn't blink an eye at that moment on the Bob Marley Live album when he shouts "Jah Rastafari Almighty God".

And it's still great music, IMHO.

swampgas wrote: »

From the Examiner, newly installed Bishop of Limerick, Brendan Leahy, came out with this gem:



Great - the church doing what it's best at, telling women that suffering and sacrifice are simply to be endured. And when hard cases occur, as they do, we get some waffle about "the logic of love". Spoken like a man who will never have to deal directly with one of those hard cases himself.

I really think this is their Last Chance Saloon. Keep it up, Bish.

HurtLocker

HurtLocker wrote: »

I always had this notion that rte was covering this topic... weirdly.
In the indo it talks of the threat of excommunication. It is not even mentioned on rte news. Further food to feed my irrational notion that rte are making the prolifers seem as sane as possible, and make the churches power/influence look greater than it really has to scare politicians into thinking the majority will never vote for the party which legalises abortion it even in its current backward form.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0504/390390-knock-prayer-pregnancy/

Just look at the current headlines on rte
http://i43.tinypic.com/2poqgt0.jpg

Not one pro choice article or the pros of abortion abortion article.But of the 6 main topics 2 are on the church's view. That's a third. Not even one pro choice article :mad: or heck one other non church abortion article.

Another thread on here asks why we can't have a rational debate on abortion. I blame rte. And with their determination to quote the church on every single six-one about some "morally wrong" bs said by some peodo coverer at some event organised and attended by "mobilised" pro-lifers.

Some days I really want to stick my head in a bucket of petrol and set it on fire :mad:

Ahh! Without fail. RTE covering the churches stance again on the news now. Bloody bollocks. Brought in that nutty pro lifer as well no mention of prochoice side, no balance at all. I'm fed up of being made listen to those peodo coverers. I want balanced news!

Obliq

HurtLocker wrote: »

Ahh! Without fail. RTE covering the churches stance again on the news now. Bloody bollocks. Brought in that nutty pro lifer as well no mention of prochoice side, no balance at all. I'm fed up of being made listen to those peodo coverers. I want balanced news!

Complain to them? You'll get nowhere more than likely - I've done it, but they should be hearing this all the time.

HurtLocker

Obliq wrote: »

Complain to them? You'll get nowhere more than likely - I've done it, but they should be hearing this all the time.

Probably a waste of time, sure they still show the angelus :rolleyes:

Sarky

I saw on the front page that the other forum had a thread on the same topic, so I thought I'd skim over it and see what the prevailing train of thought was there. I ended up double-checking to make sure I hadn't accidentally navigated my way onto Stormfront or something. Christ on a bike. I know, it's a religious forum, I should expect to see people judging other people, but... wow.

Nodin

Sarky wrote: »

I saw on the front page that the other forum had a thread on the same topic, so I thought I'd skim over it and see what the prevailing train of thought was there. I ended up double-checking to make sure I hadn't accidentally navigated my way onto Stormfront or something. Christ on a bike. I know, it's a religious forum, I should expect to see people judging other people, but... wow.

You Will Not Tempt Me To Look, Great Deceiver.

HurtLocker

Oh my lawd..


Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Life doesnt begins until/Soul is for formed when the first inhalation of air. lol i use the bible to back up my pro-abortion views now! What a little gem!

Turtwig

Irish Independent 4th May 2013 wrote:

On a dark December day in 1997, Mary (not her real name) boarded a plane to England with a social worker and her foster mother.

Her 13-year-old body was gripped with nausea as she switched on her CD player and tried to sleep. A song that would become an emblem for the rest of her life began to play.

This week, almost 16 years later, Mary recalled the moment vividly as she sat in a Dublin hotel murmuring the words of the song in a poignant whisper.

"'I'm leaving on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again.' I'll never forget those lines. Part of me never did come back again after that. I didn't know that the next day my life was about to change forever."

Today, Mary is a 29-year-old mother of two, but 16 years ago she was the teenage Traveller at the centre of the controversial C Case who was taken to the UK for an abortion by health board staff after being brutally raped.

This was permitted by the High Court under the earlier X-Case ruling because the court heard that Mary was suicidal.

The abortion led to a spiral of depression and chaos in her life.

But today she has turned her life around. A bright, beautiful young woman with gleaming black hair and a smart dress sense, she lives in a perfectly kept house with her loving boyfriend and her two children.

Sipping a cappuccino as she speaks of the joy in her life now, she scrolls through pictures of her little boy and girl on her phone, her face beaming at each one.

Christmas, birthdays, family gatherings, but always in the back of her mind someone is missing.

Now Mary is seeking answers from the State. She has acquired a legal team and is waiting for her medical records to be released.

In the days after the rape, social workers arrived at Mary's caravan in north Dublin and took her away. She believed she would be home again in 24 hours.

She was taken to Mullingar and placed in foster care with another Traveller family. Slowly, the days turned into weeks, and the weeks into months. Before long, she realised nobody was coming to take her home.

Around this time, she developed severe hunger pangs and frequent vomiting. She had no idea what was wrong until one day her foster mother took her to the local GP where she was asked for a urine sample.

The next morning, she was told she was pregnant. She was bewildered. "I said: 'What's pregnant?'" she recalls. "They said 'you are having a baby'. I didn't understand how I could be. A few weeks later, they came and took me on a plane to London.

"The next day, I was taken to a building. All I remember next was being wheeled on a trolley and screaming with the pain.

"They gave me an injection, and when I woke up, the pain had gone. Eventually they told me the baby was dead."

In the days before her abortion, her parents had taken a legal action against the State in a bid to stop their daughter being taken to England. A psychiatrist for the Eastern Health Board insisted that Mary would kill herself if she did not have an abortion. The couple, however, failed in their action and the abortion went ahead.

Today, Mary has launched her own legal inquiries to find out why the abortion left her so badly damaged. She is also seeking answers as to why she was put into care after the abortion.

"I wasn't educated about these things. I was 13, the eldest girl of 12. I barely got to school at all because I had to be at home to mind the kids, and cook and clean.

"In the Travelling culture, suicide and abortion are completely frowned upon. In those days, they were never even spoken about.

"When I was taken into care, I was so shy. Most of the time, I was drugged up to the eyeballs in a room on my own.

"I remember they would come in with a silver tray and a syringe on it. The drug was Largactil. They would offer it to me in a brown sticky liquid or in tablet form. I would say no to both.

"Then four of five staff would come in, hold me down and give me an injection in the bum. That was horrific because it brought back memories of the rape. Eventually I ended up taking the tablets because I didn't want to be held down any more.

"I still have dreams about a little girl with blonde hair running around a field and asking me to play with her. She is my lost daughter. I called her Shannon. I eventually got a death certificate for her. That was my way of proving that she existed."

On her 18th birthday in 2002, Mary packed her bags in her final care home and demanded to be released. A taxi was called and that was the start of her long journey of recovery.

"My name – the C-case girl – is brought up on radio and TV all the time these days as if I'm an ad for abortion. The X-case girl never had an abortion in the end so we don't know how it would have affected her, but, for me, it has been harder to deal with than the rape.

"It only really hits you after you have children. You never forget your missing baby. It plays on your mind every day. Any woman who has an abortion and then goes on to become a mother will know all about it afterwards.

"I didn't want to become a mother at 13, but I realise now that baby didn't deserve to die. I would have loved to give her up for adoption to somebody who really wanted kids and couldn't have them. She'd be a teenager today and maybe we could be friends, even if she didn't call me mammy.

Source

I find it odd that the articles reasons the abortion was what caused her life to spiral into chaos and depression. Call me a spade here, but she just experienced some extremely gruesome and horrific crap that would make anybody's life spiral into chaos (if it wasn't already in it) and depression. That's not to say it mightn't have been the abortion that cause it and certainly her feeling of regret is very much real. It also mentions nothing about the threatening phone calls she supposedly received. (Just to add here I can't find whether these calls were from anti-abortionists or people linked to the rapist. Who reoffended by raping an 86 year old woman in 2008.)

Case in point this report from the exact same paper.

Irish Independent 18th Dec '98 wrote:

Then, in a dramatic U-turn following the intervention of anti-abortion groups, her parents went to the Children's Court to tell the Eastern Health Board they were opposed to an abortion and wanted their child back.

They were accompanied to the court by members of two pressure groups, Youth Defence and Family and Life, who were providing taxis, accommodation and legal advice for them.

Not since the 1992 `X' case had the anti-abortion groups had such a high profile and they made the most of the opportunity.

The crusade to force the girl to continue with her pregnancy was deemed crude by many people, and there were accusations that the impoverished family were being blinded by promises of money and support.

In the ensuing public rows, a psychiatrist's report concluding the girl was at risk of suicide if forced to continue with the pregnancy.

As the furore raged, the Eastern Health Board came in for a barrage of criticism from anti-abortion campaigners amid claims the parents were being denied access to their daughter a claim the board strenuously denied.

As total strangers squabbled over her fate, the child, who was being cared for by a foster family in the Midlands, is reported to have said: ``I will kill myself if I had a child ... because it is not my child.''

When the Children's Court ruled in favour of allowing the girl to travel to Britain for an abortion, her parents, backed by Youth Defence, appealed to the High Court which upheld the order.

In early December the teenager travelled to Britain in the company of her foster mother and social workers and her pregnancy was terminated.

In October this year the girl was given her only chance in more than 12 months to have her say when she addressed the Central Criminal Court by video link after her rapist pleaded guilty. Now aged 14, she told the court: ``I hope he gets locked up for life.''

Source.

I wonder if all that pressure from the Pro-life crowd had an effect on her hindsight reaction to the abortion? Does anyone know of any papers comparing the impact on women exposed to heavy publicity and criticism about their abortions to women who, by and large, stay out of the crosshairs of anti-abortionists? I'd also like to know if there any papers looking at very broad time scale to see if maybe 30 to 40 years later women who've had abortions under extremely stressful circumstances may end regretting them.


That said what an awful ordeal this woman had to go through. In the second link it details the circumstances in which McGingley raped her. Horrific stuff.

Obliq

Oh I could cry. The poor woman.....It's interesting that she is able (encouraged?) to look back and say that while she wouldn't have wanted to be a mother at 13, she could have given the child up for adoption. Unfortunately, she wasn't told what was happening to her and she wasn't in any way in charge of any decisions about her care. Oh christ, the things she went through.
I'm remembering her family trying to stop her being brought for an abortion. I remember thinking there's something wrong there.....thinking this is a traveller family. Ordinarily they wouldn't be known for their pro choice support, here's YD as well and the state bringing the girl away. How much does she have a say in? Poor uneducated kid who probably would have chosen to have the baby, based on her background

I too would love to see some studies about abortion regret in people who have been forced, or encouraged, to have abortions. It kind of stands to reason that they'd regret them, doesn't it?

Obliq

While typing there, Radio 1 just calling pro-lifers on the statistics they're using in their campaign. FINALLY!!

Obliq

Professor David M. Fergusson was on, talking about how the findings of his research has been manipulated and skewed by the pro-life campaign. Cheered to hear it

Delirium

lazygal

What'll David, Breda and Patricia do now? Maybe Breda will feel the need to correct the research, in a similar manner to her pompous idiocy when challenging Boylan.

UDP

lazygal wrote: »

What'll David, Breda and Patricia do now? Maybe Breda will feel the need to correct the research, in a similar manner to her pompous idiocy when challenging Boylan.

She (Patricia) ironically, as a member of iona and a catholic, keeps repeating "no evidence, no evidence".

Delirium

Soundcloud of Prof Ferguson on Morning Ireland today

Obliq

Can't really post this in "the funny side". Topical, as regards legislation. *Warning* Black humour overload potential....

Turtwig

Oh Jaysus they're still saying it should be used.
(Pat Kenny.)

"I was listening to his research".
Dafuq?
Listen to research?

Delirium

Jernal wrote: »

Oh Jaysus they're still saying it should be used.
(Pat Kenny.)

"I was listening to his research".
Dafuq?
Listen to research?

Keep digging, Iona!!

lazygal

koth wrote: »

Keep digging, Iona!!

Here's some more shovels!

Turtwig

Ah now Pat. Can we at least mention the two large scale studies that give a better indication of the mental health and abortions issue/
Jaysus.

Edit : Have to say that Pro Choice lady is quite uninformed too. It'd only take her one hour of research to be able to thoroughly debunk this crap.

Obliq

Oh great example Pat. Woman gets pregnant while husband is abroad. Thanks for the perpetuation of women being slags who sleep around and then "take the easy way out". Nice :mad: