Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

kylith

koth wrote: »

How does Ireland have such a low maternal death rate?

It's easy when you don't record most of the deaths!

IRELAND HAS THE LOWEST RATE OF MATERNAL DEATHS IN THE WORLD
...because we doctor the figures.

robindch

kylith wrote: »

[...] because we doctor the figures.

Presumably because it's easier than doctoring the women concerned.

The Black Oil

CORI and language...yay.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0607/455123-abortion-legislation/

The umbrella group for religious communities, the Conference of Religious of Ireland, has said Government failure to allow TDs and Senators a free vote on the forthcoming abortion legislation would be a totalitarian move.

Meanwhile in El Salvador,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22763510

A seriously ill woman who was denied an abortion by the Supreme Court in El Salvador has undergone a premature Caesarean section.

The 22-year-old woman, who has lupus and kidney problems, sought to end the pregnancy, which doctors said posed a serious risk to her life.

The foetus developed without a complete brain and skull and died shortly after birth.

Last week the supreme court upheld El Salvador's absolute ban on abortions.

Health Minister Maria Isabel Rodriguez said the baby had died five hours after the C-section

~~

Women's rights groups in El Salvador have welcomed the decision by the country's health ministry to allow the C-section but have condemned the long wait Beatriz had to endure, which they say inflicted "unnecessary suffering".

Spokeswoman for the anti-abortion group Red Familia Claudia Handal also welcomed the outcome.

"We're happy because as we said from the beginning, it wasn't necessary to perform an abortion, the point was to respect the baby's life and to give Beatriz the care and the right to health that she deserved," she told Reuters news agency.

Lovely people.

Himself of the Quinn variety


He said: "A politician has to vote according to their conscience, whether that be pro-choice or pro-life.

"They can't ultimately go along with the party whip or the dictates of the Church, they've got to go with their conscience.

"So, if you're a pro-life politician, I find it very hard to see how they can vote for the bill."

But women voting with theirs is not OK, of course.

Galvasean

"We're happy because as we said from the beginning, it wasn't necessary to perform an abortion, the point was to respect the baby's life and to give Beatriz the care and the right to health that she deserved,"

So their alternative to killing the baby in a painless and quick fashion was to kill the baby in a fashion that took longer and caused more pain to both the baby and the mother?
Mental gymnastics at their finest.

Flier

Galvasean wrote: »

"We're happy because as we said from the beginning, it wasn't necessary to perform an abortion, the point was to respect the baby's life and to give Beatriz the care and the right to health that she deserved,"

So their alternative to killing the baby in a painless and quick fashion was to kill the baby in a fashion that took longer and caused more pain to both the baby and the mother?
Mental gymnastics at their finest.

And subject the woman to major abdominal surgery. But sure that probably doesn't count. So long as the intention wasn't to harm the baby. So what did they think would happen. Such hypocrisy makes my blood boil.

PopePalpatine

Speaking of "intended abortion", Desmond Clarke has written an interesting piece in today's Irish Times about Aquinas' "double effect" strand of philosophy.

Link

Sin City

As pro life as I am , ground for a termination if the fetus is "incompatible with life" as the phrase goes, and this needs to be 100 % accurate. However I still feel if the fetus is viable then there are no grounds for a termination

Sin City

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Speaking of "intended abortion", Desmond Clarke has written an interesting piece in today's Irish Times about Aquinas' "double effect" strand of philosophy.

Link

Thomas Aquinous also said , its better to die in excommunication that to violate your conscience. So there is grounds for Christians to support abortion too if they believe its right

Hotblack Desiato

Sin City wrote: »

As pro life as I am , ground for a termination if the fetus is "incompatible with life" as the phrase goes, and this needs to be 100 % accurate. However I still feel if the fetus is viable then there are no grounds for a termination

How about threat to the woman's life? or are you going to hand-wave and claim that those abortions aren't really abortion.

Sin City

ninja900 wrote: »

How about threat to the woman's life? or are you going to hand-wave and claim that those abortions aren't really abortion.

if its a viable fetus then it is abortion

Galvasean

Sin City wrote: »

if its a viable fetus then it is abortion

So, say for arguments' sake the fetus was what is considered non-viable' in that it would die soon after birth due to it missing some vital organs - would that not be an abortion in your book? Even if the exact same procedures of an abortion took place?

Sin City

Galvasean wrote: »

So, say for arguments' sake the fetus was what is considered non-viable' in that it would die soon after birth due to it missing some vital organs - would that not be an abortion in your book? Even if the exact same procedures of an abortion took place?

It would still be an abortion but the key term is non viable.
My point is the potential for life, if there is 100% no potential for life then an abortion can be given.

Just to clarify, abortion is abortion. I assume the procedure and the outcome doesnt change to much depending on the circumstance. Its still the same act , but there is some justifiable grounds for an abortion, termination and that would be one of them

Honestly I would feel uneasy at any abortion/termination but especailly if in the third trimester

kylith

And what if the mother's life is threatened by a pregnancy?

Sin City

kylith wrote: »

And what if the mother's life is threatened by a pregnancy?

Im pretty sure I have had this argument already
For me its a tough one, but it does depend on the viablity of the child. Could the child survive without the mother ?

lazygal

Sin City wrote: »

if its a viable fetus then it is abortion

What do you call it if the foetus isn't viable?

kylith

Sin City wrote: »

Im pretty sure I have had this argument already
For me its a tough one, but it does depend on the viablity of the child. Could the child survive without the mother ?

Should a woman be forced to die for a foetus? Shouldn't that be her choice?

lazygal

What if the viability of the woman is threatened? Not in that her life is at risk, but that the pregnancy will lead to life long complications which could compromise her ability to lead a normal life, does the right to viability of a foetus trump her right?

Sin City

lazygal wrote: »

What if the viability of the woman is threatened? Not in that her life is at risk, but that the pregnancy will lead to life long complications which could compromise her ability to lead a normal life, does the right to viability of a foetus trump her right?

here lies the dilemma for most . Does the fetus have rights. If it comes down to killing a fetus or comprise the ability of a woman to lead a normal life. In that case if the.fetus can be carried to term.and.it will,be a viable child it is.my opinion that it life trumps impairment

Sin City

kylith wrote: »

Should a woman be forced to die for a foetus? Shouldn't that be her choice?

An extreme case , would the.fetus survive if.the.mother dies

Nodin

Sin City wrote: »

An extreme case , would the.fetus survive if.the.mother dies

Why are you asking?

B0jangles

Sin City wrote: »

here lies the dilemma for most . Does the fetus have rights. If it comes down to killing a fetus or comprise the ability of a woman to lead a normal life. In that case if the.fetus can be carried to term.and.it will,be a viable child it is.my opinion that it life trumps impairment

In my opinion that is monstrous.

Sin City

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you asking?

Why do you think?

Sin City

B0jangles wrote: »

In my opinion that is monstrous.

In my opnion its not

rainbow kirby

I find the "birth at all costs" argument incredibly offensive - and pretty much proves that the anti-choice side truly couldn't give a rats arse about women.

Delirium

TD left 'shaking' after threats from pro-lifers

A FINE GAEL TD was left "shaking" after being threatened by people distributing anti-abortion leaflets personally targeted at her and has lodged a complaint with the gardai.

Regina Doherty ( right) received verbal threats and felt "intimidated" after confronting the two men who were dropping the leaflets door-to-door at a number of estates near her home in Ratoath, Co Meath.

ShooterSF

Sin City wrote: »

An extreme case , would the.fetus survive if.the.mother dies

Even if it does you are putting the survival of a foetus over the life of a human being. Even if you consider the foetus a human being you are still putting the life of one over the other even at it's simplest of levels.

Sin City

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I find the "birth at all costs" argument incredibly offensive - and pretty much proves that the anti-choice side truly couldn't give a rats arse about women.

Thats a fairly unfair argument. Obviously I would prefer for everyone to live happily ever after, but sometimes choices have to be made, Its not about giving a rats arse about women, or anything. I dont want either to have to die and as I said its a grey area, and a dilemma

Sin City

ShooterSF wrote: »

Even if it does you are putting the survival of a foetus over the life of a human being. Even if you consider the foetus a human being you are still putting the life of one over the other even at it's simplest of levels.

We were talking about if the mother will live , but has an impairment over the death of a fetus, who for arguement sake we will say is classed as a human, so death does trump impairment in my view

but if the mother would die and the fetus would live I honestly dont know
Its something I hope I never have to go through. But in that case no matter what you chose you are putting one life before another

B0jangles

Sin City wrote: »

In my opnion its not

You see I'm not viewing this as a hypothetical situation where an imaginary woman is left physically damaged as a result of a pregnancy: My friend's wife has been left permanently disabled as a result of two very difficult pregnancies, the second nearly killed her.

She has been told by her doctors that if she has another child she will almost certainly be left unable to walk.

If she has a crisis pregnancy you're saying that she should have to go through with it and be seriously disabled for the rest of her life, rather than have a termination.

That is monstrous.

Delirium

According to NatVigil4Life on twitter, Fine Gael support abortion up to birth.

Anyone know what they're basing this accusation on? Not near a computer so can't google it myself.