Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Quatermain

Just came across this. How blasted selfish do you have to be to do such a thing? We're approaching WBC levels of insanity right here.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-pro-life-longford-954074-Jun2013/

Corkfeen

Quatermain wrote: »

Just came across this. How blasted selfish do you have to be to do such a thing? We're approaching WBC levels of insanity right here.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-pro-life-longford-954074-Jun2013/

For once it actually wasn't them, the Independent is just severely lacking in journalistic integrity or even basic research skills as per usual....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fathers-rights-group-claims-responsibility-for-protest-at-taoiseachs-home-29351472.html

Richard Bingham

Nodin wrote: »

I've no idea what the point of such silly semantics is supposed to be.

If all you can answer it with is an accusation of semantics (which it was not) then the point was valid.

Nodin

Richard Bingham wrote: »

If all you can answer it with is an accusation of semantics (which it was not) then the point was valid.

...what point?

Galvasean

The pro-life campaign reaches another new low:
http://www.herald.ie/news/pupils-were-given-prolife-leaflets-in-class-by-teachers-29351056.html

Bobby42

I love the way the pro life crowd are crying victim over the indo's inaccurate reporting, claiming people are trying to demonise them.

Eh, there was an anti abortion protest at Alan Shatters house a few weeks ago. Very conveniently forgotten about.

EDIT: And the irony of youth defence criticising the indo for not fact checking while at the same time happily claiming that abortion is never necessary to save a woman's life.

Sierra 117

Let's not forget their attempts to demonize Enda Kenny and other politicians by calling them murderers.

Zombrex

Richard Bingham wrote: »

I don't know - it was you that was confused not me. You stated

You seem to think the validity of the reason and the validity of the suicidal feelings are inextricably linked, when nothing could be further from the truth

after I had said

as far as I am concerned, if a person is suicidal, they are suicidal, regardless of what another person thinks

The "confusion" being referred to is your ponderings over whether a doctor will assess if a person has a "valid" reason for wanting to kill themselves, and your statement that the alternative to that is that anyone can just walk in, say I'm suicidal, and be treated as such.

Firstly the validity of the reason you are suicidal is highly subjective and irrelevant. As you seem to realize why you are suicidal doesn't change that you are. You might want to kill yourself because your entire family was raped and murdered, you might want to kill yourself because your cat looked at you funny this morning. The rest of us might say it is silly to want to kill yourself because your cat looked at you funny, but that doesn't change that the person still wants to kill themselves.

Secondly the alternative to someone assessing if you have a valid reason to want to kill yourself is not that doctors believe everyone who says they are suicidal. It is that they assess if you are suicidal without making any judgement as to the validity of the reason you give for wanting to kill yourself, because ultimately that doesn't matter to the issue at hand.

Perhaps by valid reason you simply meant a doctor will assess if they are genuinely suicidal or not. If that is the case you probably should have been clearer.

Zombrex

Sierra 117 wrote: »

Let's not forget their attempts to demonize Enda Kenny and other politicians by calling them murderers.

You would think just calling them politicians would demonize them enough :pac:

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote: »

The pro-life campaign reaches another new low:
http://www.herald.ie/news/pupils-were-given-prolife-leaflets-in-class-by-teachers-29351056.html

I'm glad the parents objected to this and demanded a meeting and an apology.

20, or maybe even 10 years ago this would have just been seen as business as usual.

robindch

Zombrex wrote: »

I'm glad the parents objected to this and demanded a meeting and an apology.

Seems that a guy named Shaw (who succeeded Rónán Mullen as Cardinal Connell’s spokesman in 2002) instructed the teachers to put the leaflets into the kids bags. So far as the IT reports, it seems he apologized by saying that he should have put them into envelopes instead. Shaw has not resigned as he seems unable to see what's wrong with what he did.

BTW, Fine Gael TD Mary Mitchell O’Connor used to be Principal at the Harold School and I gather from people living in the area that Ms O'Connor achieved fame briefly during a recent election by instructed the kids in her school to tell their parents to vote Fine Gael.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/anger-over-vigil-for-life-leaflets-given-to-pupils-in-dublin-primary-school-1.1432477

Irish Times wrote:

There have been calls for the resignation of Eddie Shaw, a former spokesman for retired archbishop of Dublin Cardinal Desmond Connell, as chairman of a Catholic primary school board in south Co Dublin. They follow Mr Shaw’s distribution of leaflets to children at the Harold School in Glasthule promoting the Vigil for Life rally in Dublin on June 8th. Fine Gael TD Mary Mitchell O’Connor is a former principal of the school.

At a stormy meeting last Thursday, Mr Shaw, who succeeded Senator Rónán Mullen as Cardinal Connell’s spokesman in September 2002 and who is head of public relations at Carr Communications, apologised to the school parents’ association. Minutes of the meeting seen by The Irish Times state that “on Friday the 7th of June, a notice for a pro-life vigil was put in the bags of three classes. The leaflets were intended for every bag in the school but some teachers either chose not to put them in and others forgot.

“The leaflet highlighted a vigil taking place last weekend for the Pro-Life Campaign against the upcoming legislation on abortion. The parent body were outraged that the children were being used as vehicle to promote a controversial campaign,” it said. Parents who spoke to The Irish Times were very angry at their children being used in this way. One parent of a five-year-old was asked by the child what an abortion was and felt deeply annoyed to have been put in that position.

Parent Mark O’Driscoll said Mr Shaw told the meeting “he should have put the leaflets in an envelope, which is to miss the point entirely”. He felt Mr Shaw’s apology was “inadequate”. Parent Davin Roche queried the role of school principal Anne Moore in distributing the leaflets, which he felt were “entirely age-inappropriate”. Ms Moore was unable to attend last Thursday’s meeting. Mr Roche said Mr Shaw’s judgement in the incident was “extremely poor”.

Another parent who did not wish to be named described as “preposterous” Mr Shaw’s assertion at the meeting that his action wasn’t political, and said his explanation lacked “all plausibility”. Mr Shaw “should not be chairman of the board of management. He is not fit to hold that position,” the parent said. Ms Moore was “not available” to comment to The Irish Times on the matter and Mr Shaw responded that the “issue is a matter for the school board”.

The Black Oil

Presumably the pro-life response will be - 'the irony of pro-abortion campaigners expressing so much concern for our use of children as political fodder whilst they don't give a damn about the unborn in the womb'

aloyisious

Galvasean wrote: »

The pro-life campaign reaches another new low:
http://www.herald.ie/news/pupils-were-given-prolife-leaflets-in-class-by-teachers-29351056.html

Interesting story. I presume the literature was in sealed envelopes and that prevented the teachers from reading it and realizing what it referred to. :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

aloyisious wrote: »

Interesting story. I presume the literature was in sealed envelopes and that prevented the teachers from reading it and realizing what it referred to. :rolleyes:

In retrospect " Mr Shaw told the meeting “he should have put the leaflets in an envelope". :eek:

rainbow kirby

Looks like we have a new YD poster campaign up... somehow they got onto Kildare St (which is closed for the visit of the Obama ladies) and put a load of them up, also pretty much putting a gauntlet of them near Heuston Station on the bridge which the airport bus crosses...

joseph brand

kylith wrote: »

ETA: would it be worth our while to start going to Pro-Life rallies with truthful banners like:
We don't care about crippling women, as long as they can have babies after
Babies first, women second
Abortions for the rich only
A bunch of pederasts and their enablers know what's best for us all
Suicidal? Good! Let the sluts die
A lifetime of heartache is worth it to see your anencephalic child die in agony shortly after birth

Just there on Sunday, I was telling my dad about the two women in the audience at The Frontline (Pat Kenny). Both of them had abortions in England, as they were carrying a foetus which would not have survived outside the womb. His response when I explained this to him was; "that doesn't happen."

He also said that women were having abortions just so that they could afford fur coats.

Forcing a woman to carry the foetus (which cannot survive outside the womb) full term, is callous and stupid. Although, if for some reason a woman really wanted to, she could. /choice

I just remembered my mam's argument against abortion, which she hit me with months ago:

"If there was abortion here, you wouldn't have your two beautiful children". I don't know how in the name of jaysus she came up with this, but it must be an idea which comes after 'abortion on tap'. (forced abortions?)

My dad, unwittingly, showed me the 'light', and steered me away from religion. And I can't help but get sucked into religious debates with him, on a Sunday, because what he says is so outlandish and senseless. Pigeon chess comes to mind.

Mardy Bum

joseph brand wrote: »

Just there on Sunday, I was telling my dad about the two women in the audience at The Frontline (Pat Kenny). Both of them had abortions in England, as they were carrying a foetus which would not have survived outside the womb. His response when I explained this to him was; "that doesn't happen."

He also said that women were having abortions just so that they could afford fur coats.

Forcing a woman to carry the foetus (which cannot survive outside the womb) full term, is callous and stupid. Although, if for some reason a woman really wanted to, she could. /choice

I just remembered my mam's argument against abortion, which she hit me with months ago:

"If there was abortion here, you wouldn't have your two beautiful children". I don't know how in the name of jaysus she came up with this, but it must be an idea which comes after 'abortion on tap'. (forced abortions?)

My dad, unwittingly, showed me the 'light', and steered me away from religion. And I can't help but get sucked into religious debates with him, on a Sunday, because what he says is so outlandish and senseless. Pigeon chess comes to mind.

Really it is unadulterated ignorance and a lack of education. I have had the same lines thrown back at me when "pro lifers" realise they have nothing of value to say.

Morag

Well the pro lifers have ins with the majority of our schools as they are patroned nyt eh RC chruch and on Church owned land.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/anger-over-vigil-for-life-leaflets-given-to-pupils-in-dublin-primary-school-1.1432477

Calls for resignation of Eddie Shaw, former spokesman for Cardinal Desmond Connell, as chairman of school board

Minutes of the meeting seen by The Irish Times state that “on Friday the 7th of June, a notice for a pro-life vigil was put in the bags of three classes. The leaflets were intended for every bag in the school but some teachers either chose not to put them in and others forgot

lazygal

As I said in the thread in TLL, I don't find any of the church's tactics unbelievable anymore.

robindch

joseph brand wrote: »

Pigeon chess comes to mind.

Wonder if they'd like to meet Popette? Sounds like they'd get on like a house on fire!

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Wonder if they'd like to meet Popette? Sounds like they'd get on like a house on fire!

My immediate thought was when they meet we could set the house on fire...I'm a bad person.

Sierra 117

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My immediate thought was when they meet we could set the house on fire...I'm a bad person.

Ah shure, they'll all die someday.

Bannasidhe

Sierra 117 wrote: »

Ah shure, they'll all die someday.

Apparently they won't - they will have ever lasting life...allegedly.

Sarky

So there's an anti-abortion loon on Twitter I seem to have picked up ever since the threesome thing from SpunOut (... I just read that back to myself. Jesus.), who is vehemently against same-sex marriage for the usual reasons (Y'know, the ones that are flattened by all available evidence), and loudly proclaims the same old rehearsed US-funded lies about abortion and the like. Being the good conscientious internet citizen that I am, I've been copying her tactics to use against her since about March, which *really* gets under her skin in the most hilarious way, especially as she hasn't a clue about irony.

I was blessed yesterday to discover that she's actually from Northern Ireland, doesn't vote "on matters of principle", studies law and medical ethics, and still thinks anyone who disagrees with her (particularly when you mention that if she doesn't vote here, her opinion doesn't matter) is a misogynistic, idiotic, baby-killing, partitionist traitor to their ancestors. Y'know, the ones who fought and died to carve out a Republic in which we could live and vote.

I won't include links because I'm not that much of a jerk. But damn it, I felt so good about it I had to share.

krudler

Bobby42 wrote: »

I love the way the pro life crowd are crying victim over the indo's inaccurate reporting, claiming people are trying to demonise them.

Eh, there was an anti abortion protest at Alan Shatters house a few weeks ago. Very conveniently forgotten about.

EDIT: And the irony of youth defence criticising the indo for not fact checking while at the same time happily claiming that abortion is never necessary to save a woman's life.

It isn't though, y'see removing a baby from someone because it's necessary= not abortion. Abortion only happens when some hussy gets knocked up and decides she's rather spend the money on shoes than a baby. I know this because it was on a YD leaflet, facts can't be disputed!

Obliq

Sarky wrote: »

......links because I'm not that much of a jerk. But damn it, I felt so good about it I had to share.

I don't tweet, but if I did I'd follow that Enjoy!

krudler

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Really it is unadulterated ignorance and a lack of education. I have had the same lines thrown back at me when "pro lifers" realise they have nothing of value to say.

The "you wouldnt be here if abortion was around" line is always hilarious. why? would my mother have aborted me for the lulz? and if she had I wouldnt exist anyway so I'd be none the wiser. It's like trying to reason with a lego brick talking to pro-lifers at times. I know someone at work who is against abortion but pro-choice, as in she wouldnt have one for whatever reason, but doesnt think other people should be unable to. Why can't more pro-lifers be like that? "I dont agree so you cant do it either" is a pretty poor reason for something to not be available.

Penn

krudler wrote: »

The "you wouldnt be here if abortion was around" line is always hilarious

Even better are the "Some of those aborted babies could have been doctors... they could have cured cancer... they could have saved people's lives!"

Yeah. Could also have been murderers or rapists though. Let's not forget the odds of that.

Mardy Bum

krudler wrote: »

The "you wouldnt be here if abortion was around" line is always hilarious. why? would my mother have aborted me for the lulz? and if she had I wouldnt exist anyway so I'd be none the wiser. It's like trying to reason with a lego brick talking to pro-lifers at times.

I give the same response but usually the person thinks they have check mate so stop listening. I think this comes down to a lack of understanding of self. A lot of pro lifers have no idea what the concept actually entails and the whole fetus/baby debate also springs from it.

lazygal

Penn wrote: »

Even better are the "Some of those aborted babies could have been doctors... they could have cured cancer... they could have saved people's lives!"

Yeah. Could also have been murderers or rapists though. Let's not forget the odds of that.

They could have been religious nutters who don't think gays or women deserve equal rights.