Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Corkfeen

If anyone wants to check out Dáíl debates on it today, here's the link.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/Web-Live.htm

And here's Lucinda Creighton's argument, she manages to compare it to the one child policy.....
http://www.lucindacreighton.ie/2013/07/01/speech-statement-on-the-protection-of-life-during-pregnancy-bill-2013-second-stage/

_rebelkid

Anywhere from 1 to 8 million. Lots of other "brave people" fighting against the "Labour loving tyrant and Devil, Enda".

Morag

The sound on the direct links seems a bit dodgy, this is better http://agenda.ie/tv/dail/

_rebelkid

Lucinda Creightons Speech

There are many studies charting disturbing trends but one by F.X. Egan, of the University of Connecticut, showed that of the 122,519 babies expected to be born between 1989 and 2006, only 65,492 were in fact born. Almost 50% of those babies were simply obliterated, because they were not “perfect” whatever that means. I find this shocking and terrifying all at once.

She has no idea how Population Distributions work. And more so, she thinks that the discrepancy HAS to be from abortions. Has she never heard of miscarriage, maternal death, non-reporting of birth, even statistical error?

lazygal

It also implies that every 'non perfect' foetus is aborted.

Its all very well to say every life is precious, but me and my husband are in agreement about the 'level' of disability we'd bring into the world. Things can happen during birth and life which can mean a child requires ongoing care but I know I couldn't take on a lifelong care role from day one, knowing that everything would be battle in terms of support, education and my own sanity. I know parents who battle every day to get basic care and education for children, and they aren't helped by Government policy in this regard.

Women give birth to 'imperfect' babies in countries with liberal abortion regimes too, its not correct to assume every diagnosis of an 'imperfect' foetus means the next stop is an abortion clinic.

kylith

lazygal wrote: »

It also implies that every 'non perfect' foetus is aborted.

Its all very well to say every life is precious, but me and my husband are in agreement about the 'level' of disability we'd bring into the world. Things can happen during birth and life which can mean a child requires ongoing care but I know I couldn't take on a lifelong care role from day one, knowing that everything would be battle in terms of support, education and my own sanity. I know parents who battle every day to get basic care and education for children, and they aren't helped by Government policy in this regard.

Women give birth to 'imperfect' babies in countries with liberal abortion regimes too, its not correct to assume every diagnosis of an 'imperfect' foetus means the next stop is an abortion clinic.

I know that this is an unpopular opinion, generally, but what's so fantastic about bringing a severely handicapped person into the world? Why is it noble to spend your life looking after someone who will never be able to look after themselves? Why is it wrong to abort the handicapped? Why not terminate those pregnancies, decrease the number of people requiring full time care, and reduce pressure on parents and on the government's coffers? Is it just down to Catholic guilt and the glorification of suffering (of both parent and child)?

I had a fairly severe phobia, in childhood, of people with Down's Syndrome. I'm better about it now, but does the fact that the idea of having a child with DS fills me with dread make me a bad person?

The Black Oil

Excuse me if this is selective quoting, but I only just received the link...if someone else wants to analyse the paper in more detail.

Source: de Londras, Fiona and Graham, Laura (2013) ’Impossible floodgates and unworkable analogies in the Irish
abortion debate.’, Irish journal of legal studies.

In similar fashion, in her opening oral statement Caroline Simons from the Pro Life Campaign claimed that if abortion legislation were introduced

'Society would perceive that the right to life of the unborn is not that important and we are not really serious about protecting it...After a time, this would become received wisdom and that would be the end of the culture of life and the beginning of the culture of abortion. If one surrenders the principle of the right to life of the unborn, that sends a message to society which, in turn, produces a cultural change. Then other cultural questions emerge. What other rights will one overwhelm when their subjects are not very important? Some people refer to this as the slippery slope argument. Whatever one calls it, it is certain that ideas such as these have real consequences.'7

These claims are classical and in some cases, essentially, express floodgate arguments: they are intended to provoke decision makers (in this case, legislators) into considering possibilities that are either remote or constitutionally impossible in an attempt to influence the outcome of the process. They are also generalised - intended to make legislators think about ‘general’ implications of introducing any abortion legislation at all. In addition to these more general arguments, anti-abortion advocates also make floodgate arguments that are directed attempts to influence the content of legislation, particularly in relation to time limits, suicidal ideation, and the processes for accessing abortion more generally. In each case, we argue, both the constitutional status quo and the comparative experience from other jurisdictions (and especially from Britain) signal the disingenuity of floodgate arguments in the Irish abortion debate. This is particularly so, we argue, where the British experience under the Abortion Act 1967 is represented as both deeply problematic and as indicative of the likely outcome from abortion legislation in Ireland.

ShooterSF

_rebelkid wrote: »

Lucinda Creightons Speech



She has no idea how Population Distributions work. And more so, she thinks that the discrepancy HAS to be from abortions. Has she never heard of miscarriage, maternal death, non-reporting of birth, even statistical error?

Reading through her speech I'm perplexed as to whether she even glanced at the legislation. What the the hell is she waffling on about aborting female foetuses etc.? Is it not possible for even our elected representatives to stick to the topic at hand. Where in the legislation does it say people may avail of an abortion if they dont want a daughter.
Fair enough if and when we have a debate on making abortion freely available in the state but can we not just vote on the issue at hand.

kylith

ShooterSF wrote: »

Reading through her speech I'm perplexed as to whether she even glanced at the legislation. What the the hell is she waffling on about aborting female foetuses etc.? Is it not possible for even our elected representatives to stick to the topic at hand. Where in the legislation does it say people may avail of an abortion if they dont want a daughter.
Fair enough if and when we have a debate on making abortion freely available in the state but can we not just vote on the issue at hand.

Agreed. It boils down to 'those people abuse it, so no-one can have it, even if they need it to save their lives or their sanity'.

Nodin

ShooterSF wrote: »

Reading through her speech I'm perplexed as to whether she even glanced at the legislation. What the the hell is she waffling on about aborting female foetuses etc.? Is it not possible for even our elected representatives to stick to the topic at hand. Where in the legislation does it say people may avail of an abortion if they dont want a daughter.
Fair enough if and when we have a debate on making abortion freely available in the state but can we not just vote on the issue at hand.

If you stuck to the topic at hand, you'd have less ways to get in "waaaah/floodgates/genocide/lovely baybees" etc. Stressful. It could have them grey before their time.

Shatters comment was good

Justice Minister Alan Shatter described some of Ms Creighton's comments as
"extraordinary", adding: "I hope this type of hyperbole will not feature in our discussions."
He said the current legislation is in no way liberal but is the "most
restrictive and careful" law that could be drafted.
"What will continue and what will remain is a British solution to an Irish
problem," he said.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/creighton-sets-herself-up-to-vote-against-abortion-bill-29385897.html

aloyisious

God help Lucinda if she ever find's herself needing to make a medical emergency decision while pregnant (herself or the foetus in her womb). Somehow I think (even hope) that she's going to lose a fair few female voters in her constituency.

kylith

aloyisious wrote: »

God help Lucinda if she ever find's herself needing to make a medical emergency decision while pregnant (herself or the foetus in her womb). Somehow I think (even hope) that she's going to lose a fair few female voters in her constituency.

I really cannot understand how a woman of child-bearing age can hold views like that. I find it weird that she claims to have started as pro-choice and become anti-choice, I think everyone I've talked to has gone the other way; starting as very pro-life and becoming more pro-choice as they have reached a reproductive age and begun to realise that the situations which lead to abortions can just as easily apply to them as to anyone else.

B0jangles

kylith wrote: »

I really cannot understand how a woman of child-bearing age can hold views like that. I find it weird that she claims to have started as pro-choice and become anti-choice, I think everyone I've talked to has gone the other way; starting as very pro-life and becoming more pro-choice as they have reached a reproductive age and begun to realise that the situations which lead to abortions can just as easily apply to them as to anyone else.

Cognitive dissonance of the type described here:

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

um7y1h83ge06nx

I often wonder about that too.

How many pro-life women would die for their beliefs if they were told they needed an abortion to save their life?

If they made the ultimate sacrifice I genuinely would be strangely impressed (and a bit horrified too). Although you would hope to think they would see sense and go ahead with the abortion.

kylith

B0jangles wrote: »

Cognitive dissonance of the type described here:

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

Very much so. It's things like that that make me wish it was medically ethical to shame people like that in front of their groups, or to deny them treatment; "Sorry missus; you've been picketing outside this clinic for months so I'm going to say that you have to have this baby, since that's what you want to insist every woman does".

Morag

Dessie Ellis in the Dail to day

I am disgusted at Micheal Martin who thinks that rape victims should the next day buck up and get to boots to answer a few questions about what has happened to them and get the morning afterpill.

aloyisious

Oh, Lucinda say's that it'll be first time that suicide will be part of statute law here. Well, I never.....

Sarky

She really should stop speaking until she can find and don her clown hat.

Loafing Oaf

Morag wrote: »

Dessie Ellis in the Dail to day

Martin was just articulating the legal status quo under the constitution, unless SF now supports constitutional change Ellis is just engaging in cheap populist rhetoric and should be just as disgusted with himself & his party...

Galvasean

Re: YD doing more harm than good to their cause,
http://www.krank.ie/category/opinions/abortion-debate-better-off-without-youth-defence/

Even though I don’t and probably never will agree with the so-called “Pro-Life” side (and I don’t particularly like referring to them as such, it’s merely the nametag given to the movement) of the argument, I think it’s dangerous to regard them with the amount of contempt and disdain that so many liberal people (specifically Pro-Choice) appear to. As always, people are entitled to their own opinions and given that people can be opposed to abortion for such a wide range of reasons (i.e. not just religious), it’s not fair to tar them all with the same brush.

What brush is that? As reported fairly widely in the media last week, the notorious anti-abortion pressure group Youth Defence did nothing whatsoever to further their cause when a billboard truck they hired parked outside the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, bearing the legend “The abortion bill won’t make women safer, it will just kill babies”.

Obviously there was outcry from all quarters, ultimately resulting in the billboard company severing their contract with Youth Defence.

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

God help Lucinda if she ever find's herself needing to make a medical emergency decision while pregnant (herself or the foetus in her womb). Somehow I think (even hope) that she's going to lose a fair few female voters in her constituency.

And the things is she won't even win over the few Pro-Lifers there in Dublin SE cos we all know she'll end up voting for the bill at the end of the day, probably after a couple of cosmetic amendments...

efb

How many women has creighton met that don't regret their abortions?

lazygal

efb wrote: »

How many women has creighton met that don't regret their abortions?

I doubt such women would want to articulate their intimate medical history to someone so lacking in empathy.

Galvasean

efb wrote: »

How many women has creighton met that don't regret their abortions?

None she considered worthy of mentioning that's for sure.

Mardy Bum

Any politician who votes against the bill will not get a vote from me again.

Corkfeen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Any politician who votes against the bill will not get a vote from me again.

My mother was saying how it was good that some of them stick by their ideals in reference to Lucinda. Then I pointed out, why should Creighton's morals be forced upon the public who don't share her opinion going by the previous referendums, quite simply she isn't doing her job if she is unwilling to accept what has to be legislated for.

Mardy Bum

Corkfeen wrote: »

My mother was saying how it was good that some of them stick by their ideals in reference to Lucinda. Then I pointed out, why should Creighton's morals be forced upon the public who don't share her opinion going by the previous referendums, quite simply she isn't doing her job if she is unwilling to accept what has to be legislated for.

Exactly the whole idea of representational democracy is sometimes forgotten about when it suits certain needs.

Obliq

Would quite like to hear more from this father Pádraig Standún fella: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/taoiseach-s-stance-on-abortion-legislation-praised-by-connemara-cleric-1.1430399

"Fr Standún said this week’s Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll had proven that the Government had “got it right” in reflecting the views of the public on the issue. He said he admired Mr Kenny’s assertion in the Dáil that he was a public representative “who happens to be a Catholic but not a Catholic Taoiseach”, and said this was a contrast to the days when politicians were “Catholic ministers and not ministers who happen to be Catholic”."

....rather than this brain-fart, direct from Vatican’s Apostolic Signatura: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/taoiseach-not-making-sense-according-to-senior-cardinal-at-vatican-1.1437289

“The Irish people, and especially the Irish Government, should be very alert to the kind of argumentation which will be used by the secular media and by secular ideologues, in general, claiming that the destruction of the new human life in her womb could have saved the life of Savita Halappanavar and, therefore, would have been justified. Such an argument is absurd in itself. Even though, if the reports are correct, Savita Halappanavar requested an abortion, her request would not have made it right for the law to permit such an act which is always and everywhere wrong.”

Sarky

Translation: "Yes, her death is tragic, but more tragic would be if she had gotten the treatment she needed and survived!"

Oh, Vatican. You crazy cats.

kylith

I have got to stop reading threads like this over breakfast; they just depress me for the rest of the day.